Skydiving becoming MUCH safer for students ?

[pds 0]

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But it seems to me that the risks are equal, for
students and experienced skydivers.

the risks are not the same for students and experienced skydivers so how in the world can they be equal?

i think my perspective and experience makes the possiblity of a inappropriate response from me all too real so im gonna bow out. i just wanna grab somebody, anybody, by they lapels and shake vigorously before opening.

take care, good luck and welcome to the family.

namaste, motherfucker.

[skydivejersey 0]

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And you came to this opinion in 110 jumps?

Yes. Yes I did. I also can't see it changing in the next 1000 jumps.

[skydivejersey 0]

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As someone else pointed out (Rob?) SL/IADs students typically have better canopy control skills, an lets not forget spotting.....

Better canopy controls. Only because they have had to do more jumps to get to the same level of proficiency as an AFF student. SL students are not inherently better pilots. That statement makes no sense. Look at an AFF student whos got 20 jumps and a SL student who's got 20 jumps and you'll find comprable levels of canopy skills.

In 19 static line jumps. I was not taught to spot once. Look at the plane not the ground. How does that help with spotting?

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To dismiss SL/IAD for safety reasons is pointless.

No it is not. If there is a safer was of learning we should be dismissing SL IMO. Generally AFF works out cheaper in the long run anyway so I think the economic arguement for SL is flawed too. Safer / Cheaper - how is wanting to dismiss SL pointless?

I set a DZ up on our little Island here in Jersey. No way on the planet I am going to start offering SL progression.

[billvon 2,400]

>SL students are not inherently better pilots. That statement makes no sense.

Of course it makes sense. In the old program, they have more experience under canopy. Given the same FJC training, someone with more experience is more skilled.

>In 19 static line jumps. I was not taught to spot once.

Taught to spot? In 20 SL jumps I actually spotted the plane 3-4 times. In 3 AFF jumps I never did.

[billvon 2,400]

>>Student skydiving will be a hell of a lot safer once the static line system is dead and buried IMHO.

>And you came to this opinion in 110 jumps?

That's what this place is all about! People with 110 jumps arguing with people with 120 jumps over how to fly a canopy, how to teach AFF, and the future of skydiving.

[riggerrob 558]

In 19 static line jumps. I was not taught to spot once. Look at the plane not the ground. How does that help with spotting?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sounds like your instructors were slacking off. We encourage our students to look out the door on their first jump. Every jump after that includes a new point about learning how to spot, so that by their tenth jump they can exit over the correct landmark.

This notion of imparting a little more information every skydive illustrates an advantage of S/L progression. Not all students can absorb the huge amount of information in an AFF first jump course. Most students learn better when introduced to new information in small blocks. The material does not sink into medium-term memory until they have applied it in the air. Long term memory requires repeating that task a few dozen times in the air.

The best training syllabus includes all training methods at different stages in the program. For example, I believe that all students should start with a tandem. Then two or three S/L or IAD jumps to get comfortable with steering a parachute. A few visits to a vertical wind tunnel can teach basic freefall body position. Late in the program the student can put it all together under the close supervision of AFF/PFF Instructors.

S/L progression is better for students who are short on cash. If they can only afford one AFF/PFF dive per month, I tell them not to bother, because one jump per month only scares all the participants. I tell impoverished students that their money would be far wiser spent on two or three S/L jumps per month, or they should quit the sport.

[Ron 7]

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"And you came to this opinion in 110 jumps?"
Yes. Yes I did. I also can't see it changing in the next 1000 jumps.

Uh got to disagree here buddy.

SL is cheaper than AFF...And if you don't have the money to go AFF it is much better to do 3 or 4 SL or hop n pops insted of one AFF a mth.

Every SL student I have ever taken up has been told how to spot....By the time they are on the hop n pops they are spotting with my help. By the time they are doing the RW part of the program they are spotting for the both of us....Before I sign anything off for the "A" they can spot from 10,000 feet without me looking at them.

I take AFF grads to Cessna DZ's and teach them how to spot....Most AFF Grads don't know anything about spotting.

Most SL grads have MUCH better Canopy control than AFF grads.

And my SL grads I would put up against ANY AFF grad when they both have 20 jumps.

The SL program works fine...most DZO's don't like it since there is not as much money in it. And AFF's fill the planes to altitude, not 4 grand.

And I have had to push an AFF Grad out of an airplane at 4 grand when the pilot had an emergency and told us to get out...She was in the door and screaming...She would not come back in, and would not go out..she just stood in the door. She had 60 jumps. She was in the rest of the planes way out. The SL grads ran out smiling.

So to say SL is unsafe is nuts.....And just wrong.

You need to spend more time being around SL and AFF before you start saying which is better.

Its not really your fault...I have been hearing that AFF is better for years.

I had a guy tell me I would never be as good as him since he learned AFF and I learned SL. What a load of crap!

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Scrumpot 1]

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The best training syllabus includes all training methods at different stages in the program. For example, I believe that all students should start with a tandem.

Wow, now there's a "please EVERYBODY" attempt ...or maybe the inverse, not offend anybody stab at this one eh? Well, bzzzzzzt ...argh! -Sorry, but I just don't agree with this AT ALL. I see absolutely no value whatever in INSISTING that EVERY student MUST do their first jump as a tandem! Any more than INSISTING on SL, or AFF, or IAD for that matter. Although each of these methods have their own independent merits (and definciencies perhaps) Having the ability to offer the program that BEST SUITS an INDIVIDUALS (read: variable) particular needs, and best adept individual learning STYLE, and having that optionality AVAILABLE imho is the best of ALL these worlds!

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[AndyMan 7]

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Yes. Yes I did. I also can't see it changing in the next 1000 jumps.

When I had a hundred jumps, I thought that too. Now with 500 jumps, I'm wise enough to know that I was wrong then, and don't know squat now.

Those who never figure this seem to be the ones who get hurt.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Ron 7]

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When I had a hundred jumps, I thought that too. Now with 500 jumps, I'm wise enough to know that I was
wrong then, and don't know squat now.

Those who never figure this seem to be the ones who get hurt.

Wow you learned quick...I didn't really get this till 1,000 jumps!

I guess skydivers are advancing faster today than back then. (Well some)

Almost 3,000 and I still don't know anything!
If I start to think I do...I just go do a freefly jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

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As someone else pointed out (Rob?) SL/IADs students typically have better canopy control skills, an lets not forget spotting.....

Better canopy controls. Only because they have had to do more jumps to get to the same level of proficiency as an AFF student. SL students are not inherently better pilots. That statement makes no sense. Look at an AFF student whos got 20 jumps and a SL student who's got 20 jumps and you'll find comprable levels of canopy skills.

In 19 static line jumps. I was not taught to spot once. Look at the plane not the ground. How does that help with spotting?

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To dismiss SL/IAD for safety reasons is pointless.

No it is not. If there is a safer was of learning we should be dismissing SL IMO. Generally AFF works out cheaper in the long run anyway so I think the economic arguement for SL is flawed too. Safer / Cheaper - how is wanting to dismiss SL pointless?

I set a DZ up on our little Island here in Jersey. No way on the planet I am going to start offering SL progression.

If after 19 jumps you were still on a static line, I can see why you opinion will not change in 1000 jumps. You are a slow learner.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[pds 0]

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That's what this place is all about! People with 110 jumps arguing with people with 120 jumps over how to fly a canopy, how to teach AFF, and the future of skydiving.

bad day bill?

namaste, motherfucker.

[johncohn 0]

Who says that life has to beeither SL or AFF? There is a place for both. I started when I was 55 and I was much happier taking things one step at a time wiht the SL progression. If I had to go AFF, I wouldn't have started...

[Erroll 49]

Agreed. I also started late. I started with the S/L progression, got stuck on 10 sec f/f and switched to AFF. One major benefit of having done S/L was that I was never afraid of low altitude exits. All in all it took me around 30 jumps from first S/L to graduating AFF. My son, who was 17 at the time, finished the entire S/L progression in one long weekend. Some people are fast learners, while others do take a little longer.

[skydivejersey 0]

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If after 19 jumps you were still on a static line, I can see why you opinion will not change in 1000 jumps. You are a slow learner.

ooohhh....!!!

If you are really interested in my SL history it was this. I jumped at Netheravon in the UK. Unfortunately it was one of the windiest dz's in the UK. I would spend everyweekend there for 3 months, then have to pay for a retrain. Then maybe I get lucky and get 2 jumps in before another 3 months looking at the windsock and then shelling out for another retrian. I managed in 2 years, despite probably spending every other weekend at the DZ to get 13 jumps in. And that included 4 in one day. Always seemed to get to that GATW - just one more to confirm and then it would be 2 months later when they let me go again. In which case it would be "it's been 2 months better to another one... oh the winds up!".

6 years later I find a DZ in France. 6 SL's and off to freefall. I don't know how it works in the States but the average number of SL jumps in the UK / France seems to be around 12 from the people I have spoken to. D'ont think its down to slow learning.

[phonics1981 0]

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If I had to go AFF, I wouldn't have started...

If i HAD to go SL, I wouldnt of started. Or, I wouldnt have been so eager to start. I knew AFF was right for me and passed without any rejumps. AFF was better for ME. But thats me, not everyone else. I think that having more than one learning option opens the sport to more people. A way that is right for one individual is not necissarily right for another. I feel AFF has a higher learning curve and that works for some people, not others.

SL and AFF are both just as good and the end result is pretty much the same.

And my canopy control is just as good as a SL students !

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"Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!"
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[mjosparky 3]

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If after 19 jumps you were still on a static line, I can see why you opinion will not change in 1000 jumps. You are a slow learner.

ooohhh....!!!

If you are really interested in my SL history it was this. I jumped at Netheravon in the UK. Unfortunately it was one of the windiest dz's in the UK. I would spend everyweekend there for 3 months, then have to pay for a retrain. Then maybe I get lucky and get 2 jumps in before another 3 months looking at the windsock and then shelling out for another retrian. I managed in 2 years, despite probably spending every other weekend at the DZ to get 13 jumps in. And that included 4 in one day. Always seemed to get to that GATW - just one more to confirm and then it would be 2 months later when they let me go again. In which case it would be "it's been 2 months better to another one... oh the winds up!".

6 years later I find a DZ in France. 6 SL's and off to freefall. I don't know how it works in the States but the average number of SL jumps in the UK / France seems to be around 12 from the people I have spoken to. D'ont think its down to slow learning.

I may have misunderstood you. How many jumps did you make hooked up with a static line? I was trained with S/L and if all went well your 6th. jump was a clear and pull and 20+ jumps off student status.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 558]

I see absolutely no value whatever in INSISTING that EVERY student MUST do their first jump as a tandem! Any more than INSISTING on SL, or AFF, or IAD for that matter.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The difficulty here is that every student arrives on the DZ with different pre-levels and every student learns at a different pace. It is difficult to predict which students will do well and which students will do poorly. After 21 years of instructing, students still surprise me.
Just last week, we had a student who had flailed his previous PFF dive and was fumbling through the dirt dive for his next jump. Then he surprised us by flying gracefully in freefall and completing all of the freefall tasks.
On the other hand, I had a tandem student earlier this week who was really nervous on the ground.
Can you picture a church lady swearing like a sailor during the airplane ride? Hee! Hee!
I was still surprised when she did the "mantis from hell" out the door. I kept my belly pointed into the wind, but I had to work at it!

The bottom line is that it is difficult to predict which students will do well and which present a hazard to themselves. To minimize liability, more and more DZs are insisting on first-timers going tandem.

[skydivejersey 0]

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I may have misunderstood you. How many jumps did you make hooked up with a static line? I was trained with S/L and if all went well your 6th. jump was a clear and pull and 20+ jumps off student status.
Sparky

I did a total of 19 static line jumps. In the UK and France you have to do 3 consequtive perfect jumps (GATW - good all the way) and then you could be cleared to freefall if you went the same day.

Anyway its of topic.... SL's I don't like. They are not as safe as AFF, they are not cheaper in the long run, they are certainly not as much fun as having an instructor along for the ride. I just still can't see the advantages.

Maybe things are slightly different stateside compared to the European way of doing things. If anyone ever asks how they can get into skydiving the answer will be the same every time.

[skydivejersey 0]

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That's what this place is all about! People with 110 jumps arguing with people with 120 jumps over how to fly a canopy, how to teach AFF, and the future of skydiving.

ROCK ON!

[mjosparky 3]

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I may have misunderstood you. How many jumps did you make hooked up with a static line? I was trained with S/L and if all went well your 6th. jump was a clear and pull and 20+ jumps off student status.
Sparky

I did a total of 19 static line jumps. In the UK and France you have to do 3 consequtive perfect jumps (GATW - good all the way) and then you could be cleared to freefall if you went the same day.

Anyway its of topic.... SL's I don't like. They are not as safe as AFF, they are not cheaper in the long run, they are certainly not as much fun as having an instructor along for the ride. I just still can't see the advantages.

Maybe things are slightly different stateside compared to the European way of doing things. If anyone ever asks how they can get into skydiving the answer will be the same every time.

Just because you don't like them does not make them unsafe. I don't like green paracutes but they are as safe as orange ones. I am sorry that you lost someone you knew while they were jumping static line, but the fact is it happens in all forms of training.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 7]

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SL's I don't like.

This I agree with . Your opinion is yours.

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They are not as safe as AFF

This I don't agree with...You have any PROOF? Or is it just the OPINION of a guy with 110 jumps? I think SL are just as safe as AFF...Its my opinion, but since I have been jumping 10 years this Sept, and have 2,984 jumps, a SL I and a Tandem I...And have been working with students for 8 of my 9 years....I'll stick to my opinon unless you can PROVE me wrong.

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they are not cheaper in the long run

Again show me PROOF...My SL students spent 1015.00 for 20 jumps with gear rental.

AFF at the same DZ just 1-7 was 955.00.

So 20 jumps for 1015.00
Or just 7 jumps 955.00

Looks to me like SL is cheaper.

And I would put any of my SL students up against any AFF grad when they both have 20 jumps.

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they are certainly not as much fun as having an instructor along for the ride.

Again your OPINION...I liked SL since it was all on ME to do it...No one held my hand...No one was there to pull for me once I was on freefall. Much more fun for me.

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I just still can't see the
advantages.

Just because your experince sucked, and just because you can't see the advantages...does not mean that there are not any.

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If anyone ever
asks how they can get into skydiving the answer will be the same every time.

Is this the voice of a DZO sugesting the more profitable training program? Or the voice of a guy with experience with different methods of instruction telling a person the best way FOR THEM.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[R00tj00se 0]

That reply had me chuckling - especially as it came from someone usually so patient on posts.

[Remster 24]

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That reply had me chuckling - especially as it came from someone usually so patient on posts.

He wasnt always like that... I was flamed by that man!

(ok.. it was on wreck and a long time ago, and I deserved it! lol)

Remster

[mjosparky 3]

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That reply had me chuckling - especially as it came from someone usually so patient on posts.

Read some of the threads lately, he's not that far off the mark.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals