NSEMN8R 0 #1 August 21, 2003 I'm a new TM. Just got the rating in June and have barely 100 tandems. I'm wondering, what's the lowest altitude you more experienced guys feel comfortable doing tandems from. The other day the ceiling was at 8.5 K. I did it and everything worked out fine, but I definitely wouldn't want to go much lower than that. So, what's the lowest you've done them from? What's the lowest you'd consider going from? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #2 August 21, 2003 IF I paid for a tandem and only got 8.5 K I'd feel ripped off and want a partial refund Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #3 August 21, 2003 how does the average customer know though? Kinda shady though, honesty might force you to give a little discount... --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #4 August 21, 2003 I know of plenty of DZ;s that put the students out low and take the plane to altitude. Some DZ's tell the TI not to toss the drouge if there is no video. While I dissagree with the drouge issue... 10,000 feet or 13,000 makes no difference to the student."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #5 August 21, 2003 if you were a whoofo will you ever know the difference? "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 August 21, 2003 QuoteSome DZ's tell the TI not to toss the drouge if there is no video. Wow, I've never heard of that! Although drogueless freefall isn't bad, that makes the TM's job very hard in some instances, having to really fight a scared student's bad body position on opening, at tandem terminal speeds, that could get "interesting".--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #7 August 21, 2003 QuoteWow, I've never heard of that! Although drogueless freefall isn't bad, that makes the TM's job very hard in some instances, having to really fight a scared student's bad body position on opening, at tandem terminal speeds, that could get "interesting". Dave....remember "no Drouge, No Main?" You have to throw the drouge to get the main to open. They just delay it till near opening time. And it is unsafe...It also adds wear on the gear. The drouge is there for a reason."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 August 21, 2003 QuoteYou have to throw the drouge to get the main to open. Yes, but it still takes time to slow down from tandem terminal...that extra speed can still cause havok during deployment/opening.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #9 August 21, 2003 QuoteYes, but it still takes time to slow down from tandem terminal...that extra speed can still cause havok during deployment/opening. Well you wait till ya slow down just like you did in the class...But it speeds the ride up, and lets you get down quickly so you can go back....I don't agree, but I have seen it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyfrog 0 #10 August 21, 2003 Hey NSEMN8R! Great screen name, by the way, Tony! You should be the poster boy for Trojans: "Use Trojan Condoms... or end up just like me!" It would have to be a wide angle lens shot so that all your kids could be in the picture with you! I'm glad you agreed to do the tandems with me from 8500 that day. When I first started doing tandems, they were all from 9500', so it didn't seem that big a deal to me at the time. Plus, I have a LOT more tandem experience than you. I respect your decision. And Mark's to ground himself, too. I know it was probably nervewracking for you, but you're a better tandem master for it, I assure you. No instructor should need extra altitude to get stable and throw the drogue. As for "ripping off" the students, I made it VERY clear to all my passengers BEFORE we got in the plane that the ceiling was low and would probably NOT get any higher anytime soon. They all had the choice to wait if they wanted to go all the way to 11K. The three or four loads we did from that altitude all chose to go to 8500 rather than wait and possibly not jump that day. Most even said they wouldn't know the difference. Nobody felt ripped off, and they ALL had a great time and thanked us for getting them in the air. I'm all for giving the customer the most bang for their buck, but we were lucky to get ANY tandems done that day. I suppose we could have flown through the thin but solid layer and taken our chances with GPS spots (which DOES happen all the time at DZs big and small), but we don't do that. That said, unless there is an aircraft emergency, 8000 is my minimum tandem altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #11 August 21, 2003 QuoteQuoteYes, but it still takes time to slow down from tandem terminal...that extra speed can still cause havok during deployment/opening. Well you wait till ya slow down just like you did in the class...But it speeds the ride up, and lets you get down quickly so you can go back....I don't agree, but I have seen it. By what? 15 seconds? That's completely retarded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 August 21, 2003 QuoteSo, what's the lowest you've done them from? *** 6000 ft AGL What's the lowest you'd consider going from? 6000 ft AGL (except in an emegency)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #13 August 21, 2003 QuoteBy what? 15 seconds? That's completely retarded. Well I said I didn't agree with it...But 15 seconds out of 60 is 25% less time...So it is significant over a day. Like I said..not smart, and I will not do it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #14 August 21, 2003 What do they have their TMs pull at?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #15 August 21, 2003 QuoteWhat do they have their TMs pull at? Seen it at several DZ's....I personally have seen some pull at 4-5."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #16 August 22, 2003 I have done a few tandems from 6,000, feet but was never comfortable with that short a freefall. Our official minimum at Pitt Meadows is 7,000' . We only jump from 7,000' if we encounter clouds on the way up. Our normal exit altitude is 10,000' from Cessnas and 12,500' from our King Air. As for students being able to tell the difference between 10,000 and 12,000 ... It takes them about 25 seconds to wake up and enjoy the freefall. Any extra freefall time after 25 seconds is a bonus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #17 August 22, 2003 QuoteSome DZ's tell the TI not to toss the drouge if there is no video. !!!!!????? Wow. What happens if the TI can't get he drogue out? Tandem terminal reserve deployment. EP's for tandems include getting either the drogue or reserve out before reaching tandem terminal. Current USPA BSR's prohibit intentional back to earth or vertical orientations that exceed normal drogue falls speeds. Current USPA BSR's state the minimum pull altitude for tandems is 4,500 feet AGL. Pulling at 4,000 feet AGL doesn't leave a lot of room to beat the Cypres in the event of a high speed malfunction or time to fix a problem with the main before having to cutaway and deploy the reserve in time to beat the Cypres. Not that USPA would actually do anything, but out of curiosity, is this DZ an USPA GM DZ? Not safe practices. Definitely not smart to compromise safety for $$$ Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #18 August 22, 2003 QuoteWhat happens if the TI can't get he drogue out? Tandem terminal reserve deployment. EP's for tandems include getting either the drogue or reserve out before reaching tandem terminal. Yeah, not a good idea...Like I said I don't agree. QuoteCurrent USPA BSR's prohibit intentional back to earth or vertical orientations that exceed normal drogue falls speeds. Current USPA BSR's state the minimum pull altitude for tandems is 4,500 feet AGL. I agree stupid, but what is the USPA gonna do anyway? Quoteis this DZ an USPA GM DZ? Yep."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #19 August 22, 2003 USPA requirements for new tandemmaster now include going to Tandem terminal as part of the rating. That was the scariest jump of my rating knowing that I was about to do TT and I needed to hold it for so long before tossing the drogue to get the rating Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TEB6363 0 #20 August 22, 2003 Yep, like JP said. 6K lowest without a good reason. However, 9.5 is what I like to start with. Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #21 August 22, 2003 QuoteUSPA requirements for new tandemmaster now include going to Tandem terminal as part of the rating. That was the scariest jump of my rating knowing that I was about to do TT and I needed to hold it for so long before tossing the drogue to get the rating Right, and I have done it too, but it is for training purposes only, not for normal tandem jumps with a paying passenger. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #22 August 22, 2003 My personal minimum with non-skydiving passengers is 6000FT. For paying customers, I don't think it's worth the ride at any less than 7500FT. I have never made a tandem with a paying customer from less than 10000FT. I have made two effortless tandem emergency exits from 4000FT - one with a first-time student.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #23 August 23, 2003 Quote10,000 feet or 13,000 makes no difference to the student. I disagree...I always notice a adrenaline pumping difference in students that get 12,500- SMiles Experience is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you. Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TXSkydancer 0 #24 August 23, 2003 Yeah, worse for me as my partner was around 250 and I was right at 200 at the time. Talk about hauling through the skies! I wouldn't have a problem getting out at 8K (I think). We were trained for emergencies at 4K, so? We had one student (now a former jumper pilot) whose first jump had to leave at 4K (plane problem), second jump at 8K (clouds, I think) and decided he'd go through AFF.Blue Skies and Safe Landings! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #25 August 25, 2003 With a new jumper, 7500'. They were told beforehand though, getting to altitude was going to be a problem, so they had the choice of going or coming back another time. With an expeienced jumper, 5000', doing a demo into a stadium. Due to time, weather and FAA constraints, that was the way it had to be. In the saddle at 3600' with a slow opening (sub-terminal). For those of you who don't know, just a note, DO NOT pull the drogue release on a vector system before deploying the drogue, you will get a slower opening.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
