Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers

[Jessica 0]

Something like this has happened to me. I was an idiot, and afterward I got a quiet talking-to in the packing area. I was humiliated, and I've never made the same mistake again.

It wasn't like I liked hearing it, and I thought at the time the guy was an asshole, but it didn't take long for me to realize that I had indeed fucked up and he did me a favor.

If he had called me out in front of everyone though, I'd still think he was an asshole, and I might not have taken his advice to heart.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[kallend 1,635]

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Did you talk to him after a while? How did he act then?

Anyway, the closest thing I've experienced was at Perris. After a good spot, a two way exited before me, I let them fall to a 45 degree angle, then exited. The problem is, they decided to pull at 4K
I do freestyle and pull at 3K (if the spot is good).

scott

Scott....meet BillVon......Bill.....meet Scott. Please go have a talk about the 45 degree rule for seperation and why it DOES NOT WORK!

As useful as this talk may be, it's really the wrong way of doing things. Those advocating this method should be asked to justify it, not the other way around. Otherwise any crack-pot scheme can be dreamed up and claimed to be the truth until someone disproves it. That is the way of religion, but it is not the way that safety engineering works.

I wonder, has anyone ever presented a justification for the 45 degree "rule"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jlmiracle 7]

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After talking to them, they actually were pretty cool people.....I was a little defensive at the time because I was new up there and I wasn't going to tolerate any SKYGOD bullshit!

If the problem gets too out of hand, get the DZO involved.

scott

What exactly is SKYGOD bullshit. What skygod bullshit have you experienced before. You may be getting bullshit if you show up with a chip on your shoulder not willing to take any bullshit. Maybe what you conceive as skygood bullshit is actually constructive criticism. Don't get me wrong, there are certainly enough people out there that think they are skygods and better than the rest than there are those that are better than the rest and you can really learn alot from them if you listen.

Good luck.

Sunshine - you are better than that putz.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[betzilla 56]

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So has this ever happened to anyone, and do you think it should be talked about in front of a crowd, or should this guy have asked me to come talk to him in private?

Privacy would be preferable, but I think it can be talked about it public as long as nobody's being a jerk. For that matter, when someone IS being a jerk, yelling and flapping arms, etcetera, most people standing around will realize that something's not quite right. Probably the only one who lost face was the other guy, ESPECIALLY if he was less experienced than you.

[Jimbo 0]

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I snapped back and said "Dude, you see that sign over by the manifest office?, it says if you are pulling higher than 3K, you have to inform the pilot and manifest, if you pull high at Perris, you have to jump LAST! to avoid people flying into each other." I pointed out that they were the experts, why are they pulling so high?

Basically I put half the blame on them, I flew past this chick at 4K and she looked like a bird, I don't think I was that close! You can have a pretty distorted view in freefall anyway.

Think about this, please. The people below you got in your way? How do you think this happened? What could they have done to stay out of your way? What could they have done differently to ensure your safety?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[scottjaco 0]

Well for starters, they could have pulled at 3K!
like everyone else. That way I wouldn't have flown past them!

scott

[webracer 0]

Here's what I do:
I approach the person, and if I don't know them, I introduce myself. I ask them if they were aware of the problem (whatever it is) Today for instance, I met a jumper that did not leave enough separation at exit and opened 50 yards from me (I was on a 4-way sit).
He realized that situation, so we discussed most of the scenarios that could lead to such a situation.
The conversation was very civil, and public, but unless you were eavesdropping, it would have looked just like two jumpers debriefing a jump.
I don't really get angry at stuff like this because it serves no purpose. If it continues to happen, I start to get perturbed. In this sport shit happens, we do the best we can to prevent it. Part of prevention is learning. People rarely are open to learn when someone is yelling at them.
Sunshine, If I'd have seen this happen, I would have stepped in, and I'm surprised somebody didn't.
You did the right thing.
Troy

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[scottjaco 0]

What is skygod bullshit?

It has nothing to do with what happend....it has more to do with the way they came at me...I didn't like their hollier than thou approach.

They said they were AFF instructors! Then I asked if they were AFF instructors at Perris....nope! skydive Las Vegas! that really got on my nerves because they were acting like an authority figure!

Like I said, we all kissed and made up afterwords...
were all cool now!

scott

[riddler 0]

Just want to add that not a lot of attention is paid to on-heading openings. I've seen so many opening where folks get spun 90, 180 or 270 degrees, then forget about it ever happening. Why is this important?

The larger group you fly in, the less of an angle you have to work with for getting away from everyone. I get uncomfortable on anything larger than a 4-way, because I feel it's my obligation to keep my heading within 90 degrees on opening on a 4-way. On an 8-way, I only have 45 degrees to work with. Assuming everyone gets the perfect angle tracking away (which almost never happens), I divide 360 by the number of people in the group, and try to get my track and opening within that result.

What about smaller groups? Even when I am only doing a two way, it stands to reason to track perpendicular to jump run. If you are jumping at a DZ where jumps run is always the same direction (east or west for instance), that makes it easier to know where to track (north or south). If jump run changes according to pilot whims, then I need to make a note of it before I get out of the plane and try to track 90 degrees away from it. It makes sense for me to keep my heading on opening and continue to fly in that direction to avoid running into groups ahead of me or behind me under canopy.

Yesterday I witnessed from the ground someone that tracked in the direction of jump run (bad), had a 180 degree off-heading opening (bad), then proceeded to turn the canopy towards jump run (bad). Not surprisingly, another jumper opened quite close to this person. I often have off-heading openings, due to my bad packing, but I can correct it somewhat with harness shifting and knowing which way to point my canopy after opening.

[billvon 2,405]

>After a good spot, a two way exited before me, I let them fall to a
>45 degree angle, then exited.

Well, they reached what you thought was a 45 degree angle and then you went; this may or may not have been enough time for adequate separation.

>She thought I didn't give them enough room before jumping.

This may have been because they were nitpicky and didn't know much, or it may have been because you didn't give them enough room before jumping (the 45 degree thing simply never works.)

>if you pull high at Perris, you have to jump LAST! to avoid
>people flying into each other."

That's often true within groups but definitely not on a load basis. Freeflyers always exit after RW no matter who's pulling where, for example.

>I pointed out that they were the experts, why are they pulling so high?

Many people with heavily loaded HP canopies pull high nowadays. It generally has little to do with experience.

>I was a little defensive at the time because I was new up there and
>I wasn't going to tolerate any SKYGOD bullshit!

Generally, if you're the new one, it's a good idea to be tolerant rather than require everyone else to put up with you. That way you learn the written and unwritten rules of the DZ before you yell at someone else for following them (or not following them as the case may be.)

[Jimbo 0]

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Well for starters, they could have pulled at 3K!
like everyone else. That way I wouldn't have flown past them!

Pulling at 3K would not have solved the real problem, in this case, the lack of horizontal separation. It is up to the group in the plane to give sufficient separation to the group below.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[scottjaco 0]

I have one question?

Why are RW groups allowed to jump first! Shouldn't freeflyers go first, since they fall faster......

Look what happened to me....I caught up to them because I was in a stand up position but the group before me was RW! bellyflyers fall slower, shouldn't they be last?

scott

[masher 1]

Do a search on "exit order" or "exit seperation"

You'll find that the prefered order is RW biggest to smallest, FF biggest to smallest, students, tandems, wingsuits, CRW. (not too sure about the last two)

I think that the general rule of thumb seperation is 1000' between exits.

But of course, your mileage will vary.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[wmw999 2,126]

There are several posts from very very experienced large-dropzone managers and other similarly-qualified folks on this topic.

There is one dropzone that I can think of that has freefliers go first, all of the others have belly-fliers going first. There might be a reason for it.

Here's Bryan Burke's essay on the topic. At the time, he was working for Skydive Arizone, arguably (barely) the busiest DZ in the country.

Exit Order

There are others. You can look for them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rgoper 0]

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I caught up to them because I was in a stand up position but the group before me was RW! bellyflyers fall slower, shouldn't they be last?

you caught up with the RW jumpers because you did not allow enough time before exiting the aircraft, end of story. there is no other excuse, it was no one else's fault. horizontal seperation is imperitive to ensure seperation at deployment time. see Prof. John Kaelland's power point presentation illustration. i used to believe the same thing you do years ago, i was wrong. the 45 degree theory is complete BS, it cannot be applied to exit, do the jumpers ever get to a 45 degree angle from the aircraft? and if they do, how do make this determanation? type of aircraft, winds aloft etc dictate how much time is needed between each sky diver and/or groups of sky diver(s) forget everything you've heard about the 45 degree angle exit seperation thingy!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Jimbo 0]

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Why are RW groups allowed to jump first! Shouldn't freeflyers go first, since they fall faster......

This is a good question to ask your pilots, your S&TA, or the DZO. Any one of them should be able to explain to you why the exit order is what it is at Perris. In the mean time, check out this stuff from Professor John Kallend, http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[masher 1]

I am assuming that you are doing a standard upwind jump run, and the winds at altitude aren't majorly different to the winds on the ground.

LouDiamond posted a document that can be used for calculating the spot for exit. You could probably play with that and look at different wind directions and strengths, and how they alter the exit order.



edit: stupidity.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[Jimbo 0]

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I am assuming that you are doing a standard downwind jump run,

You do downwind jumpruns in Australia? With very few exceptions my home DZ does our jumpruns into the wind. A downwind jumprun would put jumpers out all over creation and back, assuming even as much as a few seconds in between groups.

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and the winds at altitude aren't majorly different to the winds on the ground.

I don't think that this is a safe assumption. Winds at altitude are usually much different than the winds on the ground.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[masher 1]

I meant upwind. I've edited.


Also, about different winds at different altitudes, I talking about several wind 'levels' blowing in different directions and at different speeds.

I haven't done any calcs to figure this out, this is just a SWAG.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[RippedCord 0]

Bryan Burke John Kallend Exit Order Separation

Subject edited to appear in relevant "Searches"

[billvon 2,405]

>Why are RW groups allowed to jump first! Shouldn't freeflyers go first,
>since they fall faster......

No. They fall faster so they don't drift as far. RW types drift farther with the wind, thus they get out before the freeflyers and end up further downwind. This helps exit separation.

>Look what happened to me....I caught up to them because I was in a
>stand up position but the group before me was RW!

You caught up to them because you didn't leave enough exit separation and/or you tracked towards them. You MUST plan to have enough horizontal separation. Vertical separation, in general, does not work. (Unless, of course, everyone on your load can judge altitude to within +/- 200 feet, never has a PC hesitation, never has a snivel or a hard opening, never has a mal, and never loses track of altitude.) In some cases where the difference is vast (i.e. tandem pulling at 5000 vs jumper opening at 2500) it can add a bit of safety and is utilized.

[scottjaco 0]

Very interesting, makes sense.

scott

[riddler 0]

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They fall faster so they don't drift as far. RW types drift farther with the wind, thus they get out before the freeflyers and end up further downwind. This helps exit separation.

Thanks Bill - that's probably the best explanation I've heard. When students ask this, I always recommend they look at the animated image, but this is a good way to phrase it verbally.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[skyjames 2]

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I am the experienced jumper in this case.
Anyhoo, the point of the post wasn't about the incident that happened. It was about how to handle it once on the ground.

Sunshine,
I understand the point you were asking. I ignored that point, even said I did :+)

The action you described during the C/ride was more compelling to me than someone taking issue with you after the jump ... but to post my thoughts on the yelling and
place. Yelling generally solves nothing, unless you are yelling WATCH OUT! HEADS UP! or some other attention getter for the purpose of alerting that danger exists ... (Warning Will Rogers, Warning!). If you gotta yell, take it outside.

His approach to you in the hanger probably just made him look like a hothead. People should know how to handle a jump safety issue after the jump, but time and again we see ppl yelling. Walk away, they are hot and if the issue is really important they will seek you out, maybe calmed down by then.

Altitude you were in the saddle at?
Aprox what altitude did you see the other canopy coming toward you?
Did he make any evasive measures at all?
Was he on your dive, I'm guessing probably not.

Seems like a good, heads up avoidance job in a difficult situation, you landed safe and even got to hear a rant. I'll take a rant over an ambulance ride any day.

.

"exit fast, fly smooth, dock soft and smile"
'nother james

[ZoneRat 0]

Ok. So lets say you're walking through the hangar and you see one skydiver venting/ unloading on another.

Should you, as a bystander, take any action to difuse the situation?

Should one say, for example: "Hey man. We don't handle it like that around here. Take an hour and calm your ass down. Then have a calm talk in private. Alright?"

or... is it a bad move to get in any way involved?

Thoughts?

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”