What do you look for in a LO

[Albatross 0]

I am finding myself in charge or setting up a LO program and am tryign to figure out what people are looking for in the program. Do you just want someone to jump with? Do you want an LO who can give advice? Is sucess important or is just getting in the air enough? Would you mind having a small and a big group? Would it bother you if you were asked to jump in the less complicated dives to improve skills?
Lots of questions but bottom line is how many jumps do you have and what would an LO program do for you in the perfect skydiving world?

Chris

[Michele 1]

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Lots of questions but bottom line is how many jumps do you have and what would an LO program do for you in the perfect skydiving world?

60...and please, please include some "new kids jumps"...low numbers in the group, low complications, low stress, feedback if possible from an experienced jumper.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[skybytch 259]

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how many jumps do you have and what would an LO program do for you in the perfect skydiving world?

Great questions! I have a bit over 900 jumps.

To me the "perfect" RW LO is someone who can size up a group and plan a dive with a reasonable chance of success considering the skill levels of everyone on the jump. S/he will always do a thorough dirt dive (line up to pull time), emphasizing safety, and give a good debrief. Linda (hotamaly) is a good example of this.

The perfect RW LO program would have a specific organizer for low time jumpers. This LO would focus on building basic RW skills and design learning dives with a high chance of success. There would also be one or more of the "perfect" LO described above available for more experienced jumpers.

More than one "experienced" group is a good idea. Sometimes those 10 + ways can be downright scary. . .

[quade 3]

I realize that to a lot of folks, LO just means "butts in seats" but to me that's a very short view.

The first word that comes to my mind is MENTOR.

Somebody that knows the ins & outs of whatever discipline is being LOed and can actually help you achieve the goals of the skydive. This doesn't mean that the person has to be a world champion, but of course that is welcome, nor does it mean that this person has to have any formal credentials in instruction, but of course that is welcome as well. What it does mean is that the person can perform and coach you on any of the skills required by the jump.

I feel it's also important that the LO have the respect of the rest of the jumpers. Respect in the LO's abilities and respect that the LO will make the correct choices for the safety and well being of the group.

If the LO does not have the respect of the rest of the jumpers, then I've noticed that a lot of second guessing comes up.

In order to garner that respect, the LO must also respect the jumpers. By that I mean that he must not be demeaning in debriefs. The LO has to have some tact.

Finally, the one thing I really like to see in an LO is success in whatever they're trying to accomplish. Skydiving is supposed to be fun and people seem to enjoy skydiving a lot more when things go as planned. The ego of the LO should not be a factor. Larger or more complex is not better if it doesn't build. That doesn't mean it has to build everytime, otherwise they're not pushing anyone's limits, but rather that the group should see progress over the course of several jumps.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[dreamsville 0]

Some thoughts from those with more experience than I:

1) If limited low-timers, one or two in or near the base, else divide experience levels with more LO's.
2) Credibility of LO.
3) Ability of LO to spot subtle body language and cues of expertise level.
4) Simplicity (like no outward facing stuff) for lower-timers.
5) Supportivenes.
6) Know where to draw the line with expertise level.
7) Brain book of formations that work.
8) If possible with higher levels, try to keep much the same group so people on certain days get used to flying with each other. 3 or 4 15 ways may help generate a camp-type environment where people know what to expect of their peers.

Veterans please join in.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Albatross 0]

Please keep it coming. I am looking for any and all ideas. I think that a great LO program will draw people to the DZ and keep others coming back. The more ideas that I have the better program I can create.

Chris

[Islandcool 0]

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what people are looking for in the program

I have just under 60 jumps myself. If available I would like to work on fundamentals with people my on my level. Although jumping with experienced jumpers is great. They have always made me feel welcomed and have always given me positive input. However some of the dives have felt a bit ambitious for someone of my skill level. My confidence wasn't growing. Yes I know my ego is my own issue. I got to do some basic 3 ways last weekend and I really felt good about them. I'm going back this weekend and I'm looking forward to it. I know it has to be challenging trying to satisfy the needs of everyone's skill levels. So that's my input. Good luck my friend.

Ed

[feelopen 0]

I've always enjoyed the way Philip at Eloy works things - he seems to be strick enough to provoke drive and desire, but laid back enough that everyone stays happy and has fun.

I remember jumping with his groups when I had very few jumps and skills - he created formations I could hang with and pushed me to try new things, but not at the expense of the more experienced skydiver's fun.

I must not be the only person who feels this way, or he wouldn't still be there. Maybe go around jumping at the different DZ's that have stuff like this and see what you like best. You could write it off as a business expense?

Cheers,

Craig

[Shark 0]

I concur with Skybytch. An LO who can size up the group and work with and educate all would be great. But I've been to other dropzones were the LO didn't know me, nor cared to ask and treated me like I had 20 jumps.

[Tonto 1]

OK! Acronyms are great if everyone knows what they are... but what is an LO?
Thanks.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[quade 3]

Load Organizer.

The position works differently at different drop zones.

Some drop zones give the LO "free" jumps for his services and at other drop zones the jumpers chip in a buck to help pay for his slot. Still other LO's are brought in for special events because they are so good and so famous it will draw additional people to the event. There are also people that just kind of show up at the drop zone and perform these services for free without any incentive above just being a good guy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,177]

What Lisa said is pretty much a good LO to me. I have about 1200 dives. If possible, they should be able to talk one-on-one with the folks who need it, too. Being approachable is important -- some folks are shy. You can't mold yourself to everyone's expectations, but it shouldn't be scary.

Of course, if they're devilishly handsome and tell everyone how awesome I am, that's a really good LO
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I agree with a lot of what both Paul and Lisa said, but I disagree with Paul on the "instructional rating" point. Personally, I much prefer LO's to have some sort of instructional capabilities. This, especially, when dealing with low/mid-time jumpers.

Next, I believe that if a dropzone is going to advertise that they have LO's, then they better always be available for at least the major catagories of jumper (low/mid-time RW; experienced RW; low/mid-time FF; experienced FF). As someone else said, Eloy does this right. I have been other places where if someone gets cut from an organized more-experienced jump, they have no place to go; unfortunate.

A personal gripe with me is the pretty poor choices some boogies make in regards to organizers. Personally, I am not interested (at my level) in being organized by some person with two years in the sport and 1000 jumps total in three different disciplines. Skydiving organizational skills come from being around the sport, having a varied background in the target discipline (competition experience; big-way; AFF skills; teaching; etc). I don't think you get that in two years...period. I also don't think that just because a person has 10,000 jumps they qualify. He person must still be in command of his skill-set. My dad, for example, has that many jumps, but he would not (nowadays) be a good choice as an organizer even though he has more than 40 years in the sport. Patience, understanding, the ability to make on the spot corrections, a very observant eye, and lastly: a nice binder of different formations for different numbers of participants. Without that last one, I have seen some "organizers" put together some truly ugly and impractical formations.

Chuck

[quade 3]

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I agree with a lot of what both Paul and Lisa said, but I disagree with Paul on the "instructional rating" point. Personally, I much prefer LO's to have some sort of instructional capabilities.

Just to make things clear, I'd prefer them to have at least a coach rating and ideally an AFF rating, but again, I don't think it's required if they have a natural talent for teaching others, some tact and all the other good things that make for a good LO.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 7]

I agree with Chuck.....A guy with 1000 jumps in a year may not be the rounded person you need to be a good LO.

Of course a guy that has 2,000 4way only jumps is not a good choice either.

Or a guy with with 10,000 jumps that still jumps a round main.

A good LO can look at the group, and the experience level of the group and come up with a dive that is successful. A good LO will not plan a 6 point 13 way with in and outs with a group that has a few 100 jump jumpers on it. It most likley will not work.

I disagree with Quade....I don't think a LO needs a coach of instructor rating. There are plenty of great LO's that have none of these ratings. Just because you don't have the ratings does not mean that you can not teach.

A good LO should be a Mentor to the skydivers.....I always try to give feedback to everyone on the dive...good and bad...I give the good in public, and the bad in private.

A good LO will take the jump as an oportunity to teach a little bit on each dive.

A good LO should not be afraid to cut people for the good of the group. This is why I like the idea of having a few organizers...One for the "Hot Shots" (10-20 ways), one for the regular joes 8-15 ways , and one for the younger jumpers (4-8 ways). They should also feel free to move a jumper up to a higher group if they think that they can handle it.

The LO should be aproachable, friendly. (So much for me and Boxman).

Well I nee to "WORK" so if you want more....PM me

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Albatross 0]

Again thanks for the thoughts. Please keep them coming.
Now steping in to suport Quade. He did not say that the rating was a requirement but that it was an nice addition. I think that it adds some additional experience and skills to the LO's resume.

Chris

[Ron 7]

Not that it does not add to a resume....

But Steve Lapp one of the best LO's I know does not have any type of rating.

I don't think it is needed.

Boxman didn't have ANY type of rating when he started.

Most LO's I think really don't have a rating of anytype.

But you can look for what you want if you are in charge.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dreamsville 0]

I just jumped with Philip this weekend, and the last time during the 2001 Nationals, also at Eloy. He is fun and knowledgeable. He is a good example of a good LO. Others that come to mind are Steve Lapp at ZHills, Terry Gardner and Tommy Nelson at Chicagoland, Norge Roi and Roger Nelson and Jerry at SD Chicago, team XL at Sebastian, and Walt Mitchell at Perris. Mike Swanson, Dave Brown at Sebastian, and Mike Ortiz are great on the free-fly side.

I don't know where everyone here jumps, but I just tossed out a partial list of people who have helped me in case you were in any of these neighborhoods. I don't mean to advertise as much as to try to help. When I get to a DZ that's one of the first questions I ask, if I don't know anybody.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[dreamsville 0]

I just jumped with Philip this weekend, and the last time during the 2001 Nationals, also at Eloy. He is fun and knowledgeable. He is a good example of a good LO. Others that come to mind are Steve Lapp at ZHills, Terry Gardner and Tommy Nelson at Chicagoland, Norge Roi and Roger Nelson and Jerry at SD Chicago, team XL at Sebastian, and Walt Mitchell at Perris. Mike Swanson, Dave Brown at Sebastian, and Mike Ortiz are great on the free-fly side.

I don't know where everyone here jumps, but I just tossed out a partial list of people who have helped me in case you were in any of these neighborhoods. I don't mean to advertise as much as to try to help. When I get to a DZ that's one of the first questions I ask, if I don't know anybody.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[kallend 1,683]

I like a LO who (a) organizes interesting jumps (some fairly well known organizers are just plain boring, even a drill dive can be made interesting), (b) coaches the jumpers on the nuances of their slot, and (c) adapts to the ability level of the group.

I have 1160 jumps, 99% RW.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Sorry: I have a bit over 3300 jumps, every instructional rating that we use in this part of the country, and quite a bit of experience in every aspect and discipline in every part of skydiving I have ever put my mind to.

[Danl 0]

Hey Chris!

I've never had an LO I didn't like.
(Probably the ones I wouldn't like wouldn't have me on their loads. )

I have 498 jumps, almost all with LOs. I have had two kinds of LOs.

I really admire the ones who take pretty much anyone who wants on the load. They have to be mentors for low-counts, stress safety, gracefully add or remove a body or two at the last moment, and keep it fun for everyone. This generally means giving everyone their desired slot to the extent possible.

I also really admire the other kind of LOs, who run camps, record attempts, and other invitation-only events. They have to manage larger numbers of jumpers, stress safety, and give everyone what they bargained for in a professional manner. It is a thrill to be on a load with people you know are the very best in the world at this sport!

As far as the program goes:
I have more fun when the dive works, even if the plan is less ambitious. I'm not picky about who I jump with, because I'm grateful anyone is willing to jump with me.
I really appreciate when the DZ gives us a free video slot for LO groups of 8 or more.

Some rules I've learned from LOs:

Number 1: Don't kill the organizer!
Number 2: If you don't want to go low, don't fly there!
Number 3: If something went wrong, it's Dan's fault! (Perris inside joke)
Number 4: Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.
Number 5: The grip is not the goal, it's the reward.

Blue skies and home brews,

Dan'l

[billvon 2,476]

Some other rules:

-Level, slot, grips - in that order.
-The ultimate sign of success on a big way is if no one notices you.
-Put your center, not your hands or legs, where you want to be.
-You have to start flying even before your whole body is in the wind.

[dinindarryld 0]

Thanks danl its darryld,
Last year I paid for at least 100 small jumps just to
help people. In a perfect world we would have organizers for everyone. Chris doesn't look at economics and time available. The dz doesn't hand us a handful of jump tickets and say have fun. We do our best and I fe[email] an l.o. job is to most importantly make people feal welcome. Danl you have a good attitude.
I have never seen Chris spend his money to help someone or give a packing lesson just because someone was struggling.

[quade 3]

Darryld --

I think you're very right in that one of the keys to success in being an LO is to act as a front line representative for the DZ and make people feel welcome.

Where I work, we have 4 keys for everything we do and a very set priority for doing them;
Safety
Courtesy
Show
Capacity

Both you and Chris have been around for awhile and both of you have done things a bit differently.

I can't remember a time when I haven't seen you in the LO packing area making jumps. You've been around for quite awhile and seen LOs and fun jumpers come and go. You've been very helpful to a lot of folks and people now respect you enough that you're an LO.

Chris has focused on 4-way competition skills and hasn't hung around the fun jumpers, but just because you haven't seen him helping folks out, doesn't mean he hasn't. He's just been on another part of the DZ. Now, as part of his DZ commitments, he has to be a bit more visible and is looking for a bit of input and guidance from other folks.

I sure wish you could help him out instead of what's beginning to look like you two locking horns.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver