who is a Stiletto for ?

[rendezvous 0]

Should a Stiletto loaded between 1:1 and 1:1.2 be flown by someone with slightly over 200 jumps or is it still too high performance for that jump number. Also, should be be flown by someone with 50 plus jumps if it's loaded at 1:1 or less.

[billvon 2,463]

>Should a Stiletto loaded between 1:1 and 1:1.2 be flown by
> someone with slightly over 200 jumps or is it still too high
> performance for that jump number.

If they have to ask it's too high.

>Also, should be be flown by someone with 50 plus jumps if it's
> loaded at 1:1 or less.

Same thing.

The issue is not jump numbers or canopy loading or planform - it is training, experience and skill. Can he fly a Stiletto loaded at 1:1, and perform all the standard canopy manuevers on it? (flat turn, flare turn, riser landing, HP landing, crosswind landing etc) If so, he's probably ready for a 1.2 loading. Does the 1:1 stiletto scare the pee out of him, and his only 'skill' he's demonstrated so far is being able to land without injury? He's not ready for it. A canopy control course, coaching, and/or more experience under the larger canopy is required before he can safely jump the smaller canopy.

Or - worse yet - does he have NO experience under a fully elliptical moderately loaded canopy? Then he's a statistic waiting to happen, if he chooses to jump that canopy. His survival will be based primarily on luck, if he does survive.

[riddler 0]

I would suggest asking some of the instructors at your DZ that have watched you land. Assigning random numbers as qualifications isn't going to be the best answer. You might be a natural lander and more than good enough for this canopy at this wingloading. Or you may have trouble landing, and should stay on a square at a higher wingloading for some time. No one's going to know unless they see you land.

I do know people with your jump numbers that jump that same canopy at that same wingloading. I also know people (myself included) that shouldn't touch a fully elliptical for another few hundred jumps. Stilleto is a great canopy. Ask an instructor at your DZ that has watched you land.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Damm dude ... you're starting to sound like a (credible) coach. That was good advice though.

By the way, you made it to my skydiving movie last night (with your former blue hair and all). And while you are currently only in one scene, you do make a lasting impression.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ryoder 1,406]

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By the way, you made it to my skydiving movie last night (with your former blue hair and all). And while you are currently only in one scene, you do make a lasting impression.

But even more importantly, (to borrow a page from Dave Billings), am I in it?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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But even more importantly, (to borrow a page from Dave Billings), am I in it?

Sorry dude ... not yet ... but I do have footage of one of your landings ... maybe that can make the cut in my "Credits" song.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[drenaline 0]

I've been jumping a wingload of 1.25 for the past 110 jumps with no problems and now I know I can get in a stilletto with a wingload of 1.2 with no problem and I only have 140 jumps.

Before I felt that I could fly a elliptical loaded canopy with a wingload like that, I did what Bill Von said on a very old post, learn to do flat turns, brake turns, land crosswind, etc. then took a canopy course with Scott Miller.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[rmsmith 1]

While there are plenty of great deals for used Stilettos, the Sabre2 would be a better choice. The Stiletto is far too twitchy on deployment and toggle inputs for a low-time jumper.

[Blahr 0]

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If they have to ask it's too high.

Hi Bill, I have a question about this statement.

Let me preface this by saying that I love to read your posts and have mucho respect for your opinion based on the things I have read here in these forums.

Seriously, I am not trying to be a smart ass, but it looks like you are saying that one will automatically KNOW when they are ready for a more high performance canopy and that the mere act of asking about it means that they are not ready.

I have a hard time with this because I ask about EVERYTHING. When getting ready to change equipment, downsize my main, or whatever, I intend to ask about it. Always have, always will. I put a lot of stock in the opinions of the more experienced folks.
I believe that this is what will allow me to become a grizzled, old, massively experienced skydiver someday.

If what you say is true, this means that I will never be ready no matter how good or experienced I am.

In reality, as a person that proceeds with caution and never does anything too soon, and always asks the more experienced folks what they think before actually doing anything, I think I might be more ready than someone that blindy thinks they are the man and bulldozes ahead without asking.

[skybytch 259]

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The Stiletto is far too twitchy on deployment and toggle inputs for a low-time jumper.

That's always been a big reason why I don't recommend Stiletto's for those with under a couple hundred jumps. Sure, a guy with 50 jumps may be able to land it, but is his body position going to be perfect (or damn near) on every deployment? If he's never had a high speed malfunction, how can he be sure he won't try to "fix" spinning line twists for a couple hundred feet too long?

[billvon 2,463]

>Seriously, I am not trying to be a smart ass, but it looks like you are
> saying that one will automatically KNOW when they are ready for a
> more high performance canopy and that the mere act of asking
> about it means that they are not ready.

I don' t think it's automatic, but there is a point at which you feel you are ready, and that comes with experience. If you don't feel that way, then sticking to the larger canopy is a pretty good idea.

In terms of asking questions - that's always a good idea. But there is a huge difference between two types of questions:

-Can I jump a 1.2 to 1 Stiletto when I get to 200 jumps?

-I've put 50 jumps on a Stiletto 150 loaded a little over 1:1, and can land it under a wide variety of conditions; am I ready for a Stiletto 135 at 1.2 to 1, or do I need to work on the 150 more?

The answer to question 1 is usually no. The answer to question 2 is often yes.

>If what you say is true, this means that I will never be ready no
> matter how good or experienced I am.

No one is ever 100% ready for anything; you can't prove you can safely jump a Stiletto 120 until you jump a Stiletto 120. You can prepare yourself well for the attempt, though, by asking a lot of questions, jumping canopies similar to the Stiletto, and getting good training.

[bclark 0]

I stepped down from a Sabre 170 to a Stiletto 135 when I had 200 jumps. The Stiletto is an awesome parachute, but I had quite alot of trouble with it for about 100 jumps after I got it. The control range ( effective flare ) is very high in the toggle stroke and is much shorter than many other canopies. I slapped my feet time after time until I learned where the effective flare on my 135 was. THEN... I loved the fuck out of it for 600 more skydives, learned the basics of high performance landings and got myself a Stiletto 120. They do have some funny characteristics, such as oversteer, off heading openings etc... but I am a devoted stiletto driver.

[fundgh 0]

which brings to mind another question: If one is comfortable, and qualified on a Sabre 135 loaded at 1.5, should this person get a Stiletto 135? Or should one upsize when going to an elliptical, then go through the downsizing progression again?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[billvon 2,463]

>If one is comfortable, and qualified on a Sabre 135 loaded at 1.5,
>should this person get a Stiletto 135?

Like anything, it depends on skill. This is about the biggest jump between canopy types there is. If your question was "should he go from a Sabre 135 he was qualified on to a Crossfire 135" then that's a much smaller jump. On a same-loading basis, the Stiletto is one of the hardest canopies out there to fly well.

Also, if he wants Stiletto-like performance, he may want to wait for the Katana. It's a Stiletto-like performer with fewer bad habits. If the reviews I've heard about it pan out, Sabre-Katana would be less of a jump than Sabre-Stiletto.

[fundgh 0]

So, when I am ready to go to a higher performance canopy than the Sabre, is the logical step to go to a lower wing loading on a more elliptical canopy? What would the next canopy be, after a square ZP?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[Ron 7]

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So, when I am ready to go to a higher performance canopy than the Sabre, is the logical step to go to a
lower wing loading on a more elliptical canopy? What would the next canopy be, after a square ZP?

After a square ZP then a good next step is the same size Elliptical. Too many people want to downsize and change planeform. The less you change the faster and better you will learn that canopy and the safer you will be.

Don't go demoing different TYPES of canopies at WL's higher than you have already...Demo the canopy TYPES at the WL you are at now...Then you will really understand the differences between the TYPES....Once you have chosen the TYPE of canopy, then look at going down one size.

And Bill, I would not tell someone to wait for the new PD toy....You really don't know how it flies, only what you have been told. so, how would you know it would be a good choice if you have never flown it?

The Nova sounded really good when they came out.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,463]

>What would the next canopy be, after a square ZP?

Depends on what you want. Want better flares, faster turns and softer openings? A moderately elliptical of the same size might be a good choice (like a Safire, Pilot or Sabre 2.) Want to just go faster? A smaller square of the same size might be a good idea.

At your stage, you'll probably be happier going from the X sq ft square to an X sq ft moderately elliptical canopy.

[billvon 2,463]

>And Bill, I would not tell someone to wait for the new PD toy....You
>really don't know how it flies, only what you have been told. so, how
>would you know it would be a good choice if you have never flown it?

Cause I got a review from someone I trust who _did_ jump it. Like I said, it may be a good choice for someone who wants a better-behaved stiletto-like canopy. As always, demo before you buy.

[usmcdannyboy 0]

ok i may not be the best example here but i made the jump from a triathalon 210 to a stiletto 170 just fine. i flew it conserativly and carefully, pulled high and put it through the paces. when i landed it i did a perfect tip toe landing. i only had about 135 jumps and a wing loading of 1.26:1. I still fly it carefully when im down low and play when im high..I already have hardware from when i was a student and i dont want any more...but im in no danger of becoming a stastic...you just got to be smart and know what you can and cannot do...

I am the light my son...What you seek is fire

[Ron 7]

Bill I understand you have your facts....and you trust the source.

However how can a guy with very little knowledge demo it, and know if it is right for him? And how can you say it might be fine if you don't know it personally?

Even though I trust PD a lot. I never tell people to be the first on the block with a new toy....The Neptune is a recent example of why I don't run out and get the new toys first.

Nova is the best example I have.

And when you factor in that this person is new, and has less background with canopies....Well I would direct them to something proven.

Just my opinion and I do respect yours, but I just don't agree on this one.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,672]

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Should a Stiletto loaded between 1:1 and 1:1.2 be flown by someone with slightly over 200 jumps or is it still too high performance for that jump number. Also, should be be flown by someone with 50 plus jumps if it's loaded at 1:1 or less.

I did my 38th jump on a Stiletto 150 and bought one in time for my 40th jump. I now have around 1000 jumps on it (most of the rest were on a Stiletto 135). My exit weight was around 185 at the time (it's higher now).

I should add that I did my student training on Sabre170s and 150s, and have never flown anything bigger than a Sabre 190 (2 jumps).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jumpgod 0]

you mean, spinletto.

no me man.

good luck.

"dude, where's my main?"

[hookitt 0]

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you mean, spinletto.
.

If you must mock what you don't know about... Spell it correctly... it's Spinetto....

I have thousands of jumps on them. Only a couple times has it lived up to the nickname.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[billvon 2,463]

>Nova is the best example I have.

That's an interesting example to pick. I have one. And if I based my recommendations purely on my experiences with it (~50 jumps on it) I'd say it's a decent canopy. Best landing square I have ever jumped, bar none. Openings are iffy (like the pre-1994 Sabres) and it's somewhat unstable in turbulence. I had no direct experiences with collapses; it never collapsed (or even started to collapse) on me.

However, I would never recommend it to someone else based purely on what other people have told me. Other people have had very serious problems with it, some fatal - so I don't recommend it.

[Ron 7]

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and it's somewhat unstable in turbulence.

Sorry, that is funny!

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had no
direct experiences with collapses; it never collapsed (or even started to collapse) on me.

However, I would never recommend it to someone else based purely on what other people have told me.
Other people have had very serious problems with it, some fatal - so I don't recommend it.

And in this case you have several sources, not a few. And a company that said they had problems.

I don't doubt that the new PD will be nice. However I would not recomend it to anyone with out some prior experience....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334