thread spinoff, riding the plane down for instructors?

[andy2 0]

ok, what are the rules here on this one if you get to altitude, and your student refuses to jump. I assume every instructor is different, but do you try to persuade him to do it by motivating him, or do you accept it and ride it down with him, or do YOU jump and bypass the landing, etc. I guess the most conservative thing to do would be to try to persuade him for a try or two and then accept it and ride it down, correct? (That must be a bummer when it happens, my instructor was almost as pumped as me when it came time for us to jump)

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[SkySlut 0]

I have never had to ride down in the plane due to a student that refused to jump. Its odd to see that happen, but as an instructor you should be able to notice that they are a bit nervous on the ground. A good instructor should also be able to teach in such a way that will bring out confidence in a student and avoid riding down in the plane all together. By the time that a student gets in the plane, there should be no doubt about what they are about to do. I will be the first person to bump a load or have them go home and think about their jumping so they are totally confident. Just my opinion. Having a student that is racked with overwhelming fear and doubt doesnt do anyone any favors.

I have riden the plane down with students do to winds & clouds. If there is more than one instructor on the plane...we do rocks, paper, scissors to see who is going to jump and who stays on the plane.

"good ole rock...nothin' beats rock"

[darkwing 4]

In the old days when I did deal with students, a refusal was met with a brief discussion, not pressure, asking if they are sure, etc. One go around, and then descend. I never would have jumped out and let the student descend alone. It wouldn't even have occurred to me as an option that I would abandon the student.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I have never had to ride down in the plane due to a student that refused to jump. Its odd to see that happen, but as an instructor you should be able to notice that they are a bit nervous on the ground. A good instructor should also be able to teach in such a way that will bring out confidence in a student and avoid riding down in the plane all together.

I had to ride back down once with a static line student. She was out there to make one jump and make her jumper boyfriend happy.

She did great through the FJC; it was obvious she was getting everything and was pumped about doing the jump. Showed a normal level of apprehension for a first jumper all the way up to the door opening. She tried to climb out - got both feet and her left hand on the strut - and decided she couldn't do it. Brought her back in, had the pilot do a long go around and we chatted. She wanted to try again, so we took deep breaths and talked about how much fun she would have and how it would be worth it to overcome this fear. She tried again, got to the same point and chickened out again. She wanted to go around and try one more time but the sun was getting too close to the horizon so we had to take the plane down.

I think had we had more daylight she'd have done it on the third try. We tried to talk her into doing a tandem the next day but she was out of play money by that point, and the guy wasn't her boyfriend for much longer after that anyway.

[poohbeer 0]

In my case (I was the refusing student) .. I was up with both instructors (level 3; 4th 'jump') when panic striked just as the door opened.
Still don't know what triggered it since I had 1 tandem (+- 1 month before) + 3 AFF (1 day before) jumps before that.

Instructor 1 asked if I was sure cause "you are never gonna come up again", asked again, then had the (last) group after me jump and jumped with them while leaving the other JM with me for the ride down.
I don't think there is time for realy persuading someone up there.. costs a lot to fly and when someone has said no I don't think he will be persuaded that same flight. He has made that choice for good reasons and is not gonna change his mind in that high stress environment.

Offcourse, I did get up for 3 more jumps the next day before running out of tickets and money

If only 1 instructor was with me I sure hope he would have stayed in the plane. This already is not a good moment for the student and hell yes he needs someone to talk good of/to him.
Also, that pilot REALY dropped his plane down, ears hearted like hell so I'm not sure if my AAD wouldn't have popped if JM2 hadn't shut it off.
And last but not least: who else would have shut the door at altitude?! You sure aren't gonna leave a student near an opened jump door are you?!

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[mikeat10500 10]

I have landed with the plane many times doing IAD's. I get 1 refusal a season(never leave the student to jump!). I get so busy some times I just can't pack fast enough to take the next load if we are short JM's(small DZ). Landing with our pilot is like
being a tandem passenger under a VX 60!!!! It's all
very exciting.

P.S. I can talk anyone out of the aircraft....sometimes it's just a bad idea.
....mike

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Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[billvon 2,442]

If it's a wishy-washy student we'll do a go-around and try to talk them into it. If they say "No, I don't want to jump" I don't push them. And, of course, the magic words are "I'm going to throw up" in which case we close the door and get them sitting down as fast as possible.

If we have someone who won't jump (or winds pick up and the students can't jump) we generally had one JM stay with the students and the rest jumped.

[riggerrob 561]

I will land with a student if they refuse on the second pass.
If we have several loads of IAD students backed up, I will land with the plane to save the time it takes to repack.

[jumpervali 1]

We had a large group of guys come out for an AFF first jump class last summer. They all were really pumped, like a bunch of sports bar dudes watching their team win a ball game. We were using a porter so they had to go up 1 at a time, it was funny to see how they acted away from their buddies. Most were having a great ride to altitude, except the kinda leader of the group. At about 4k he said "this aint going to happen" so me and the other jm started talking him through it. During the dialog he was asked what are the other guys going to think when we land with you still onboard? He said "OK I'm jumping, but when I land I'm kinking both your a$$es!" Boy I'm glad he had a wonderful time on the skydive because he was a big ol boy.

jumpervali

[dterrick 0]

In Canada, the BSR REQUIRES the jumpmaster to be present at all times when the student is in the plane. This, of course, means an automatic ride down with them if they are unsuccessful at "escaping via the open door". End of issue for us and I bet somewhere dep in the SIM is a similar policy. It just seems unwise to have a student onboard, in gear, and no JM. A/C emergency? Then what?

Dave

PS: not a JM (...yet) so I can;t/won't comment on the coping issues.

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[tombuch 0]

Back In The Day...it was a badge of honor to be able to say you never had to ride a plane down. We always worked hard to convince a scared student that jumping was the only option. That has changed.

These days, I'll offer some quick discussion if it seems appropriate and appreciated, but if the student is clear that he/she doesn't want to jump, then we ride the plane down. It isn't an embarrassing issue, and the instructor really needs to reassure the student that saying no isn't a problem.

Should an instructor ride down with the student? Hell ya. If there are two instructors one can make a skydive, but a student who refuses shouldn't be left alone, or handed over to a pilot. It's an emotional event and the student deserves the instructors support.

Tom Buchanan
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The simple answer is that on a one JM skydive, the instructor stays with the student for the ride back down. On a two JM AFF, generally one will go skydive, swooping the last group or something if they feel like it. I have never had a tandem not go, and only one AFF who balked on a level 5. That guy had balked on the previous dive as well, but I talked hiim into it on the go-around and he had a perfect skydive. On the jump in question, though, he wasn't haveing anything to do with it, so we rode it down. I have had more than a few SL students balk when the door of the C-182 they were riding in suddenly swung up beside them. In those cramped quarters sometimes it's neccessary to take the entire load down if the first guy balks. That really sucks.

Chuck

[slotperfect 7]

I believe we Instructors can prevent the majority of jump refusals by asking a simple question and providing some follow-up explanations.

Q: "So, what made you want to come out and make a skydive today?"

The student, tandem or AFF, gets to be clear that they want to make the skydive. I explain the point of no return to them, so they understand how they can help keep us safe on exit.

I will never take a tandem or AFF student out of an airplane that tells me "No, I don't want to go!" I feel that I would be asking for not only a potentially ugly skydive, but a heap of liability risk as well. It's not worth putting the Student, DZ, Pilot, A/C Owner, School Manager, Instructors, Rig Manufacturer, Packers, etc. at risk.

My $.02

Arrive Safely

John

[wmw999 2,155]

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In the old days when I did deal with students, a refusal was met with a brief discussion, not pressure, asking if they are sure, etc

This was pretty much how I handled it, also "back in the old days." Except that I figured if they got on the step, they were GOING to go -- the only one I had refuse on the step was an experienced pilot on 10-sec delays, and he decided that the (actually legal) clouds weren't OK.

Otherwise, I pretty much figured if I yelled loud enough, and hit them hard enough on the leg, they were GOING to go. Seemed to work. Of course, I have a very loud voice when I try

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mikeat10500 10]

Quote

In Canada, the BSR REQUIRES the jumpmaster to be present at all times when the student is in the plane. This, of course, means an automatic ride down with them if they are unsuccessful at "escaping via the open door". End of issue for us and I bet somewhere dep in the SIM is a similar policy. It just seems unwise to have a student onboard, in gear, and no JM. A/C emergency? Then what?

Dave

PS: not a JM (...yet) so I can;t/won't comment on the coping issues.

Dave

Dave...looks like you will be a JM soon?
On the course make sure the student can't get between you and the aircraft on the ground
....they don't want you to let a student walk into the prop and will test you when really busy.
This is even more important to remember when coming down with a student...'cause you don't do it very often and have not developed a routine. After landing you must escort your student back to safety.
So you are at Hutch's DZ? I don't know him...but he's kinda famous!
....mike

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Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[airtwardo 6]

***
This was pretty much how I handled it, also "back in the old days." Except that I figured if they got on the step, they were GOING to go -- the only one I had refuse on the step was an experienced pilot on 10-sec delays, and he decided that the (actually legal) clouds weren't OK.

Quote

I had to pull one back in off the step...one time, but it was an extraordinary situation.
A young woman on her 3rd or 4th staticline...

She lived in a condo overlooking the St.Louis Arch...
and saw the whole thing the morning Ken Swyers landed on and fell off the Arch...
(attempted base jump 1980)

She didn't seem upset at the DZ and wanted to go for it...
Once out on the step, she REALLY lost it! Ugly...Ugly...Ugly
On direction from the pilot I assisted her back in...wouldn't have done it without his okay.
( I too had a rather commanding yell...and an impressive sidekick for 'Kling-ons")

Besides that, it was a busy dropzone...and the jumpmaster often rode the plane down and stayed with the aircraft while the next group loaded...
The old, end of the day---"student rush"

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[dterrick 0]

JM Soon? maybe late next year... have my coach 1 theory and the practical is slated for early fall. A season of coaching, another hundred jumps or so and I should be there. Interesting point on the ground procedures (again, all that stuff in which to be formally trained).

Yes, I jump HutchAir. Is he Famous, or Infamous? What good stories have YOU heard Mike? (I'm curious, PM me if it's apropriate)

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[mikeat10500 10]

I have heard lots of crazy stories over the years but
can't remember any at the moment. I hear he is a
impressive canopy pilot at times, landing in crazy
places. I think I remember someone saying he hooked up his main(hp) backwards for jump 5000?
Hell you should know lots of stories...get the smurf drunk and pump him for info!
...mike

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Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]It just seems unwise to have a student onboard, in gear, and no JM. A/C emergency? Then what[/QUOTE]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking, I figured there would be a rule that said if the student jumps then the JM has to stay. Of course I guess if it was an early level of AFF one of the instructors could jump out.

What about an emergency, if the student backs into a corner, terrified and refuses to jump? Are all bets off then and the JM can jump?

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[wrightskyguy 1]

What about an emergency, if the student backs into a corner, terrified and refuses to jump? Are all bets off then and the JM can jump?

I tell all my students that in an A/C emergency, everyone gets thier turn, if they balk at thier opportunity then they can exit after me...or the pilot.
I'm a conciencious instructor but I'm no hero.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[wmw999 2,155]

Quote

What about an emergency, if the student backs into a corner, terrified and refuses to jump

Glad I never got that one. Eventually, yes, I'll jump. I always used to tell my students that if they ever saw the pilot leave without them, they should feel free to exit as quickly as they possibly could.

Of course, that was always followed up with the information that I'd never been involved in an aircraft emergency. It's not at all impossible, but that kind of situation is really low on the likely tree.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Katzeye 0]

Quote

Otherwise, I pretty much figured if I yelled loud enough, and hit them hard enough on the leg, they were GOING to go. Seemed to work. Of course, I have a very loud voice when I try

Student: NO!
Instructor: GO!

Student: I-don't-wanna-go!
Instructor: Geronimo!!!

Wind effects of student requests while in the door.

Is a chicken omelette redundant?

[kansasskydiver 0]

i've rode the plane down once with a student because his radio crapped out on him in the plane and just the jump before he lost radio contact. i know that students shouldn't be relying on the radios, but he got really spooked. he was going to get out and i could tell he didn't really want to. i told him there is no shame in riding the plane down and told him i'd ride it down with him. he smiled and said thank you. it was teh right thing to do, i feel better that i did ride the plane down with him and that he understands that skydiving is about the love for the sport and people, not how many JM tickets you can accumulate over the weekend.

i would much rather ride a plane down for a student than persuade them to get out. skydiving isn't for everyone, it's not like golf where if you miss you're ok.

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[jessd 0]

When I rode the plane down my instructor rode down with me. After I said I didn't want to jump he asked again to make sure. When he said he was going to ride down with me I was kind of surprised. I figured that he would have jumped. I am happy that I did not have to ride down alone. He was great about it and talked to me about why I decided not to jump.

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away..."

[outofit 0]

biotch, i ain't balkin and i will bring the pain!

It is better to be dead and cool than alive and uncool!