So . . . what do you do?

[quade 3]

You've been in the sport for a few years and you've been fairly careful about not just following the rules but also looking out for other people as well.

One day you're at the drop zone and you see a well respected and very experienced skydiver doing something that you've always been taught is an unsafe practice.

What do you do? Why?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[EricaH 0]

Being newer skydiver... I always start w/ "I really don't know anything, but was wondering if/why/how...."

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[andy2 0]

I didn't vote because I think you want the cross section to be pulled from experienced folk not us young-ins in the sport. But I do the respectful thing for someone at my jump numbers, I ask them why they do it like that, and try to learn, and then go RESEARCH it to make sure theyre not telling me bullshit.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Genn 0]

I'd have to ask why or what the person is doing.

IMO, What is 'unsafe practices' for a newbie, can be quite fun for an experienced jumper.

[flygirl60 0]

I would ask about it because I am so new right now I would want to know if prehaps I had things wrong but I would let the person know that I am new and just trying to 'figure things out'. I do realize that some procedures are really only ment for students and novices, as you become better you may do things differently.

[Michele 1]

I would ask....to share information, me perhaps learn something, but also to let them know, subtlely, that the action was seen.

Asking a question is not seen as aggressive, and generally won't get someone defensive. I don't mean getting in their face and shouting "wtf are you doing??" which is, indeed a question, but more like "I was watching you, and noticed you did X. I was curious as to why" at a moment that they looked like they were taking a break, or not involved in something else.

If a person approaches someone with the intent to "3rd degree", there will be a natural inclination to defend. If, however, one approaches with a sense of curiousity, non-prejudgment, and/or learning, then the answer is far more likely to be honest, and the information given you will likely be more complete.

What you decide to do, however, after the information is obtained is up to you.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Deuce 1]

I'd ask. If we're talking about a lunchtime beer or something I'd ask if the skydiver was done for the day. If they said "no" then I'd ask why they were endangering their lives and the lives of everyone on the load. Hopefully the person might change their mind. REALLY hopefully it wouldn't degenerate into "F*ck you!" "F*ck me?! No dude, F*ck YOU!" and like that.

I've been lucky, and I've chosen my heros carefully. There are few worse things than being let down by somebody you looked up to.

[Iflyme 0]

Quade, your question is too vague ... waayyyyy to many variables.

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something that you've always been taught is an unsafe practice.

I see experienced skydivers smoking. I've always been taught THAT is an unsafe practice...

If you want to generate a discussion, please be more specific.

[quade 3]

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If you want to generate a discussion, please be more specific.

I dunno. Seems like quite a few people were able to chip in with conversation without me being too specific.

I had tried to keep it pretty generic because I wanted to see how people would respond in a generic fashion.

If you really need a specific hypothetical, let me see what I can come up with.

Ok, how about this . . .

Let's say you're on an airplane with "Jumpin' Joe".

Jumpin' Joe has been in the sport for a hell of a long time and is a world champion with gold medals and everything to prove it. Like I said in the vague question, he's a well respected guy. He inspires people to perform well.

So, you're on the airplane and the door is open and you see that he's doing something that isn't normally considered to be a good practice. Let's say he has decided to keep his seat belt on and he's sitting right by the door.

Consider all of the consequences of how you decide to respond to this; loss of face, urgency of issue, potential for disaster, who you're dealing with . . .

Go back up to the poll questions now.

Discuss.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[hookitt 0]

For that specific scenario, I'd close the door or get him to take off the seat belt. If some silly reason he meant to do that and it's followed by resistance, I'd close the door and every one the plane would know about it immeadiatly.

Why?. At that point he is not my friend. He is just some guy that is endangering me and a plane load of my friends and whatever/whoever is on the ground should a parachute deploy.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Brains 2]

I am a newbie to this sport. I was taught as you were that this is an unsafe practice. I was on the plane recently and an experienced skydiver was sitting on the floor of the king air right next to the door with a seatbelt on. Once we got off the ground and people were wanting the door up for some cool air, another skydiver (well respected around here anyway) said no. When seatbelt guy asked why not, he simply said that our rules didn't allow that. Eventually the guy took his belt off. No problems after that. No one got offended and no one went on the defensive either.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[rehmwa 2]

I see experienced skydivers smoking. I've always been taught THAT is an unsafe practice...]

That one is easy, piss in their hair. It's just payback for what they're doing.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 3]

And this is one of the reasons I asked the original question the way I did.

As you may have seen in the responces of the original poll as many as 90 percent said they'd ask him why he was doing it that way.

Now, with this much more specific question, I think it's pretty obvious that more people would be a bit more agressive with the question and possibly attempt to shut the action down.

Yet, what I'm REALLY wondering is in the face to face match off between yourself and Jumpin' Joe, would you actually be able to do much of anything?

I think a lot of folks are going to say that they, like you, might close the door and make a fuss, but . . . would they really?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hooknswoop 19]

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would they really?

No, they wouldn't. I have been down this road before. It is very easy to say that you would do something, much different to actually do something.

Hook

[rehmwa 2]

Serious response for the specific scenario - We do this every load and the door stays closed until the seatbelts are off. No exceptions. No problems this weekend and it happened frequently.

I see skydivers speaking up all the time regardless of experience - sometimes tactfully, sometimes not. But they still speak up - so do I. It's a good thing.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jumperconway 0]

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Serious response for the specific scenario - We do this every load and the door stays closed until the seatbelts are off. No exceptions. No problems this weekend and it happened frequently.

And some DZ's just take off with the door open, no problem.

• Quote

[quade 3]

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And some DZ's just take off with the door open, no problem.

And in that case all on board the aircraft would be required by law to have their seatbelts fastened for taxi, takeoff and landing. So, no issue there for those portions of the flight.

See . . . this is why I didn't want to get into specifics. It makes it too easy to justify portions of the "unsafe" practice for one reason or another.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Deuce 1]

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I think a lot of folks are going to say that they, like you, might close the door and make a fuss, but . . . would they really?

Due to an weird assortment of life experiences, I generally don't take any action on stuff I don't think is worth fistfighting over, for just that reason. Like I said in my first post, when things get hot, you have to back down or finish what you started.

Like Hookitt said, that can mean instant de-friendshipping, and that's awful. Q, I'd ask if he knew his seatbelt was on, if he said yes, I'd ask him to please remove it, if he said no, then I order him to remove it, and if he said no again I'd either close the door or use force on him, whatever was easier.

There's two things here that really strike me, one is having JumpinJoe let you down, and the second is how far do grownups take confrontations. If Joe was endangering the aircraft I would not hesitate to choke him out, er, "apply a carotid restraining hold".

But I've got an odd set of tools in my toolbox.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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And some DZ's just take off with the door open, no problem.

Until someone' main or reserve PC gets free......

I remember a cool picture of the side of a Cessna ripped off because someone's PC went out the open door.

Hook

[quade 3]

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If Joe was endangering the aircraft . . .

Well, that's a huge part of it . . . isn't it?

I mean, in the hypothetical, I guess from the majority point of view we could agree that there was a slight increase in the overall risk to everyone aboard the aircraft, but it's not like he was playing with a hand grenade -- simply "bad practice".

Now, I'll be the first to admit that if I saw a newbie doing this I wouldn't hesitate for a second to point it out and maybe demand some change of action, but Jumpin' Joe? I mean, he's an icon in the sport! Been to hell and back and clearly knows what he's doing -- right?

It's like the guys that are supposed to advise the President. Can you really "tell truth to power"?

Further, how far can you push it?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[fundgh 0]

Everyone seems to agree. The most tactful way to go about something like that is to ask why. Then you have ability to make observations and point things out to the person with out being accusatory.

...FUN FOR ALL!

[hookitt 0]

This is a re-write.. I lost my first response.. GRRrr..

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I think a lot of folks are going to say that they, like you, might close the door and make a fuss, but . . . would they really?

Most people?... no probably not... Me personally? Yes. Now I'll have to take that as hypothetical because that specific scenario is not allowed at any DZ I frequent.

I'm straight forward in a situation that is directly detrimental to my safety. However, I'm like that for a reason. I'm ok with that person not liking me.

Heck quade, I'd do it to you. No matter how cool I think you are, if you insisted on keeping your seat belt on sitting next to an open door, You'd hear about it. Most likely if I were behind you I'd just tap you and say, hey your seat belt... or if it was in my reach depending on the aircraft) just unhook it and assume your forgot to take it off...woops!!.. but if you had the mindset that it's a good Idea to have it on, I'd calmly make it known to you and the plane load why I was closing the door an making the fuss. I'm usally very diplomatic in situations that require intervention so this wouldn't be a problem.

Something generic, and perhaps not such a big deal, I'd just talk to you later and ask your opinion about why you do it that way.

I frequently read how people claim they'd react in certain situations. I know for a fact that in real life it wouldn't go down that way.

So to answer your question, Personally I'd do something about it. That's just part of who I am.

I have a few examples of unsafe practices that I've curtailed if you care to hear em.

Tim

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[quade 3]

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Heck quade, I'd do it to you.

I am very, small potatoes.

Think of the most powerful person you know in skydiving, make him the DZO of the drop zone and able to boot your ass off it.

Could you, would you, close the door and also be vocal about why you did so?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Deleted 0]

Quote

You've been in the sport for a few years and you've been fairly careful about not just following the rules but also looking out for other people as well.

One day you're at the drop zone and you see a well respected and very experienced skydiver doing something that you've always been taught is an unsafe practice.

What do you do? Why?

Old article but I think it still applies
Peer Pressure and Being Cool
.

[quade 3]

Thanks Jan.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver