pa2themd 0 #1 July 9, 2003 After some serious thought, I have decided to put an RSL on my rig, I am in "intermidiate jumper" ...more like a baby skydiver and currently cant afford an AAD. While I believe I have made the right decision for my experience level, I would like to hear your views.... blue ones "Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else!" Ivern Ball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #2 July 9, 2003 It doesn't matter what we think. ... Read this Quote... I believe I have made the right decision ..., You made your decision. Personally I think it's a good one. - -My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyros1 0 #3 July 9, 2003 I think that you are trying to compare two indifferent thinks (RSL & AAD). My personal suggestion would be go for an AAD. It might be more expensive but your life worths more. Regarding RSL (I am not jumping one) its how you feel it (BIG BIG DEBATE). On my first malfunction when I cutaway, I found myself to an back to earth position due that I was under a spinning canopy. I dont know what would the consiquences be if the RSL has opened my reserve. But always remember these are only back up systems. Jump safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pa2themd 0 #4 July 9, 2003 Yes, I absolutely agree, both systems are not fail safe and should never be relied on! However as I understand it, there RSL can be detached (fixed on student canopies) should there be a spinning mal. Ideally I would love an AAD, maybe I should start a fund for my AAD. But in the interim an RSL will have to do. The reason for me posting my decision is because it is such a huge debate and would like to know the views of others with more experince than me Thanks for the input!! Safe skydives and blue skies mate "Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else!" Ivern Ball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dynamite 1 #5 July 9, 2003 I think it's all well and good for experienced guys to advise against RSLs but they probably have hundreds if not thousands of jumps, loads of experience and the altitude awareness to be able take time under a malfunctioning canopy. Less experienced jumpers (like me) just don't know how they will react until they are in that situation. The RSL is just another safety device that helps us out if we forget or are prevented from following the cutaway procedures we have been taught. Stick to your reserve drills until you have enough experience to do otherwise. I'm in a similar dilema. I do jump a RSL and AAD. and in my limited skydiving career have had the miss fortune to have 2 mals (another story for another time) my first was at 40 jumps, my second at 70 jumps. On my second mal (a nasty lineover) i pulled the cutaway pad and then had difficulty pulling the reserve rip cord. I believe the reason for this to be that i was trying to pull the reserve pin at the same time as the RSL. This resulted in the risers on the RSL side detaching, probably only a split second, after the others. The result was the reserve opened while i was on my side and gave me twists on the reserve. I'm now seriously thinking about taking the RSL off, now i have a few more jumps and a bit of experience with malfunctions. I'm taking advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyros1 0 #6 July 9, 2003 As said BIG DEBATE. Relative workshop release the skyhook which will put out the reserve in half second. It sounds good!!!. I prefer no RSL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pa2themd 0 #7 July 9, 2003 Skyhook, can you explain this to me? "Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else!" Ivern Ball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #8 July 9, 2003 Skyhook is a new thing from the relative workshop where the malfunctioning main acts as a pilot chute for the reserve. The result is a far faster reserve deployment than was possible before. From their site: Skyhook RSL A normal RSL does one thing. It automatically pulls the reserve ripcord pin following a breakaway. The new Relative Workshop Skyhook RSL goes two steps further. 1. It automatically releases the non-RSL riser in case the RSL riser was released prematurely by itself. (You wouldn’t want your reserve deploying with half your main still attached, would you?) 2. It then uses your departing malfunctioned main canopy as a super pilot chute to deploy your reserve canopy faster than was ever before possible. How fast? How about ½ second from breakaway to line stretch (reserve canopy out of the bag). This is 3 to 4 times faster than a pilot chute can do it alone. This means that the average sport reserve will be open in 75 to 80 feet after breakaway. The Skyhook puts the argument about which rig has the fastest reserve deployments to bed forever. But if the skyhook gets my reserve to line stretch so quickly, won’t my reserve open harder? Not at all. All the Skyhook does is get your reserve canopy out of the bag faster after a breakaway. Once the canopy is out of the bag, it will open normally. For pictures of the SkyHook RSL in action, please click here. But what if I have a spinning malfunction? Isn’t there some danger that I will go unstable during reserve deployment and entangle with my reserve? If you were using a standard RSL this might be true, but the Skyhook does its job so quickly, that you never have a chance of becoming unstable after breaking away. So if your plan is to “get stable” again before pulling your reserve, the Skyhook system will actually get you under your reserve in 6 or 7 times less distance, because of the 400 to 500 feet you are going to fall getting stable before you even pull your reserve ripcord. Click here for pictures of a breakaway from a spinning malfunction. But what about a main total malfunction? If your main is still in its container when you pull your reserve ripcord (or the Cypres fires), the Skyhook automatically releases, allowing your reserve pilot chute to deploy your reserve canopy normally. But what about when I cut away from a main horse shoe malfunction? The broken away main risers would start to deploy your reserve, but couldn’t finish the job because the main pilot chute is entangled with you somehow. This is a bad situation, but the Skyhook does not make it worse. It’s basically a race between your reserve pilot chute and your broken away malfunction. Whichever is pulling harder wins the race. When your main risers stop pulling, the reserve pilot chute wins the race and deploys your reserve. The Skyhook may even help you in this situation, by assisting the reserve pilot chute out of the burble before it lets it go. What does the Skyhook look like? It has just two parts. 1. A six-inch lanyard with a loop at one end, branching off the RSL lanyard. 2. A specially designed metal “cam” to receive the loop, attached to your reserve freebag bridle, about 5 feet below the pilot chute. It’s very simple and “rigger friendly”. Click here for pictures of the SkyHook. So who needs it? You do! In the last 10 years, 24 jumpers have died in the US alone, after breaking away and not pulling their reserves. Another 4 died after entangling with their deploying reserve. The Skyhook gets rid of all those arguments for not using an RSL, and actually gives you some very good reasons to use one. And remember, because the Skyhook is a part of your RSL system, it can be released at any time, before or during the jump, by simply pulling the little yellow tab. Is the Skyhook like the device used on the Sorcerer BASE rig? Yes and no. The Sorcerer system is designed for an externally mounted RESERVE hand deployed system, and lacks the automatic release features of the Skyhook. It is therefore is not suitable for use with internal spring loaded pilot chute rigs. The Skyhook system will be available on all Vectors, Microns, and Sigma Tandem systems in about a month. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #9 July 9, 2003 The RSL is not new. It is taken from what was known back in the 1970s as the Stevens Cutaway System. There was an attachment between the two risers, and then a nylon line from one riser down to clip onto the reserve handle. When a person cutaway the main, it pulled the reserve handle before a person could even think about reaching for it. I have seen a jumper in a wild spin use the system, and it worked perfectly. There are modifications of course, to apply to a reserve on the back instead of the belly wart, but its the same principal. Its a great idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pa2themd 0 #10 July 9, 2003 I see so basically the Skyhook not only "pulls" the reserve out quicker it also releases the other riser in case he one riser breaks? The Stephens / Collins Lanyard...from what I understand this also releases the other riser in the case the RSL riser snaps but doesnt assist with pulling the reserve out. **sori guys i hope i made the above clear? ** "Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else!" Ivern Ball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #11 July 9, 2003 QuoteThe RSL is not new. It is taken from what was known back in the 1970s as the Stevens Cutaway System. Sorry for any confusion, Bill. I meant that the skyhook was relatively new, not the RSL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #12 July 9, 2003 A spinning malfunciton may be just the time you need a RSL. Low to the ground, getting lower fast and handles hard to find. One newbie had a docile partial mal function, put one hand on each handle (one option and personal choice) and cutaway. The mental "shock" as well as sensation of cutting away caused him to let go of the reserve ripcord. It took him several hundred feet, down to about 800 ft. to find and pull it. Remeber, reserves are designed to open in any body position. And I know you know better, but don't confuse an AAD with an RSL. They are back up systems that mainly function in two different realms. One is "hey open your something you dummy! before you break me." The other is "Well, you got rid of one, you going to open the other one or not?!" The times that RSL's are most valuable are low cutaways where speed is necessary. An AAD most likely isn't going to arm and fire in time. An AAD is going to open something when you haven't, either having too much fun to recognize the flowers getting closer or unable to. They are NOT interchangable. I get very upset when some jumper says "I don't need an RSL I have a cypres." I end up having to do a lot of education of newbies when they want the RSL taken off because the local skygod told them to with no explination. Hmmm, Sorry, rant mode off. Use SSK's value calulator to find an appropriately priced used AAD. My guess is there will be more on the market with people wanting to upgrade.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #13 July 9, 2003 >I have decided to put an RSL on my rig, I am in "intermidiate jumper" . . . I think that's a wise decision. They have saved a lot of lives, and I strongly recommend them to everyone until they have a cutaway or two. At that point you'll be better able to decide whether you want to use it in the future or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #14 July 9, 2003 Good decision. An RSL will not save you in as many scenarios as an AAD, but it is a huge improvement on nothing. RSLs are most valuable when you are late cutting away from a spinning malfunction. I have never understood the logic of dis-connecting an RSL while hanging under a malfunction. I have had 18 reserve rides. On all but four of them, the RSL pulled the ripcord before I could, and I was mighty glad it did! Sure we kinked a few ripcord cables, but the important thing is that both my tandem students and I are alive today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 10 #15 July 9, 2003 I think the RSL is a cost effective life saving device that anyone, regardless of experience should strongly consider. ...mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ixlr82 7 #16 July 10, 2003 QuoteAfter some serious thought, I have decided to put an RSL on my rig, I am in "intermidiate jumper" ...more like a baby skydiver and currently cant afford an AAD. While I believe I have made the right decision for my experience level, I would like to hear your views.... blue ones -------------------------------- I'm in the same boat. I think an RSL is a wise choice for me. I'd like to think that I'll perform quickly and decisively in an emergency...ain't been there yet. I also have an AAD. I can't afford one...but I have one. If you want one, you'll make it happen. __________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pa2themd 0 #17 July 10, 2003 Thanks guys!!!! Most informative!! As for the AAD fund.... collections will start this weekend I wish you all Blue Skies... be safe! "Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else!" Ivern Ball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rottenmilk 0 #18 July 10, 2003 Quote I strongly recommend them to everyone until they have a cutaway or two. This is exactly my approach! As a newbie, I don't have the experience to judge how I will react during a malfunction. For example, the sudden adrenaline rush may cause me to freeze and hinder my ability to react. Until then, I figured that I should have as much assistance in deploying the reserve as possible. Nevertheless, I am aware of the debate regarding RSLs, and I too have made an informed decision. Additionally, I understand that the mere presence of an RSL should be no substitute for proper training. (just my 2c Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #19 July 10, 2003 "They have saved a lot of lives, and I strongly recommend them to everyone until they have a cutaway or two. " Excellent rule of thumb, I'd also add, if you are not 100% sure, and have to ask somebody, then you are not ready to permanently disconnect the RSL. (you can temporarily disconnect it and tuck it into your mudflap if you occassionaly jump camera, do crew, etc.. Its a big decision, and by no means marks a newbie/experienced thing. A hooked up RSL does not mean you are still a fledgling. Its a personal decision you have to make, and is likely to be influenced by your canopies propensity to put you on your back during a mal, how often this is likely to happen, how often you do crew, and whether you jump camera. Note, I'd consider the argument that you can disconnect whilst on your back and spinning/twisting up, to be bogus.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #20 July 10, 2003 I did not read the responses to this thread so I have no idea what the opinions of others are here. My basic philosophy is I don't own an RSL. Why? Well I do own a Cypres but that has nothing to do with owning an RSL. I fly camera and own a Stiletto. Plain and simple, I don't want to be under any malfunctioning canopy with a camera system on my head without being able to regain stability and/or cutaway any camera entanglement before firing my reserve. Yeah if you are blacking out it may be nice to have the RSL but I guess I am just hoping to never find myself in that situation. I also figure if owning an RSL is a matter of concern that I might "forget" to pull the reserve handle after cutting away maybe I should re-evaluate being in this sport. I think anyone who feels they need to rely on an RSL or an AAD to save their life is also crazy for participating in this sport. I have yet to have to use my handles but I practice the same EPs everytime in the airplane. I figure the only good excuses for not pulling all my handles is a total black out/loss of consciousness or physical inability to pull my handles.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #21 July 10, 2003 Got to agree with Bill. After several years of taking them off, putting them on, taking them off, putting them on, both of my rigs now have them back on. All the arguments of cameras (why I took them off) etc. just don't seem as critical with the gear we have these days. Hey, NSTIW, cute picture...... Blonde????? Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,149 #22 July 11, 2003 QuoteGot to agree with Bill. Always a good policy. He's a greenie, after all When I got my latest gear, I took it off at the first repack. Why? Old prejudices. Re-thought it, and I have it back on. It's stupid insurance, plain and simple. I've proven a number of times that I can pull my reserve plenty quick, but what they hey. It's cheap stupid insurance. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallenAngel 0 #23 July 11, 2003 I fear the RSL. The thought of going for the cutaway while being in an unstable spin and possibly getting tangled up in the reserve is frightening. I like having the option of controling the time between cutting away the main and going for the reserve. I prefer getting a grip on both the cutaway and silver. Pull cutaway, followed immediately by silver. If unstable, give it abit more time, so the main can seperate away from me, before going for silver. I guess whatever makes people comfortable. Don't think there's a right or wrong. RSL discussions can go on forever. As far as AADs go, ask anyone who was saved by one. Take Air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pa2themd 0 #24 July 11, 2003 I agree that owning an RSL or AAD should not prevent us from following our Malfunction Drill. ALWAYS finish your drill...when I had my first mal (Line Over) on student canopy, I cut away and pulled silver, the fact that I had both an AAD and RSL on my rig never even entered my mind. However... a very good friend of mine who had a mal before had another and she only pulled silver approx 100ft AGL... the result we know. This made me reaccess my position...what could possibly have happened to stop her from pulling silver...a debate for the incident forum but it made me re-think my position! I also have a little one on the ground who would not be happy with her ma if something happened. Thanks for your uinput guys!!! It is sooo good to hear both arguments. That way I can make an informed decision!! Blue skies to you all "Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else!" Ivern Ball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #25 July 11, 2003 JE!!!! I never knew this was you!!!! How's the AFF going? That picture on my avatar is of my little girl Dakota. She is almost 3 now. I snapped that picture of her yesterday and thought I'd put it up there. She is a pretty neat little girl. I'll be down in your neck of the woods around the 11th or 12th of August. Can you come out to the drop zone and play? I know we have a definite 2 way and more than likely a 4 way ... wanna come out and make it a 5 way? It would be so nice to see you. We can share some stories of our wildest AFF adventures. I've got a few good ones. Anyway, its great to see you here. Blue skies, Miss ya! JenORoy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
nacmacfeegle 0 #19 July 10, 2003 "They have saved a lot of lives, and I strongly recommend them to everyone until they have a cutaway or two. " Excellent rule of thumb, I'd also add, if you are not 100% sure, and have to ask somebody, then you are not ready to permanently disconnect the RSL. (you can temporarily disconnect it and tuck it into your mudflap if you occassionaly jump camera, do crew, etc.. Its a big decision, and by no means marks a newbie/experienced thing. A hooked up RSL does not mean you are still a fledgling. Its a personal decision you have to make, and is likely to be influenced by your canopies propensity to put you on your back during a mal, how often this is likely to happen, how often you do crew, and whether you jump camera. Note, I'd consider the argument that you can disconnect whilst on your back and spinning/twisting up, to be bogus.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #20 July 10, 2003 I did not read the responses to this thread so I have no idea what the opinions of others are here. My basic philosophy is I don't own an RSL. Why? Well I do own a Cypres but that has nothing to do with owning an RSL. I fly camera and own a Stiletto. Plain and simple, I don't want to be under any malfunctioning canopy with a camera system on my head without being able to regain stability and/or cutaway any camera entanglement before firing my reserve. Yeah if you are blacking out it may be nice to have the RSL but I guess I am just hoping to never find myself in that situation. I also figure if owning an RSL is a matter of concern that I might "forget" to pull the reserve handle after cutting away maybe I should re-evaluate being in this sport. I think anyone who feels they need to rely on an RSL or an AAD to save their life is also crazy for participating in this sport. I have yet to have to use my handles but I practice the same EPs everytime in the airplane. I figure the only good excuses for not pulling all my handles is a total black out/loss of consciousness or physical inability to pull my handles.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #21 July 10, 2003 Got to agree with Bill. After several years of taking them off, putting them on, taking them off, putting them on, both of my rigs now have them back on. All the arguments of cameras (why I took them off) etc. just don't seem as critical with the gear we have these days. Hey, NSTIW, cute picture...... Blonde????? Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #22 July 11, 2003 QuoteGot to agree with Bill. Always a good policy. He's a greenie, after all When I got my latest gear, I took it off at the first repack. Why? Old prejudices. Re-thought it, and I have it back on. It's stupid insurance, plain and simple. I've proven a number of times that I can pull my reserve plenty quick, but what they hey. It's cheap stupid insurance. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallenAngel 0 #23 July 11, 2003 I fear the RSL. The thought of going for the cutaway while being in an unstable spin and possibly getting tangled up in the reserve is frightening. I like having the option of controling the time between cutting away the main and going for the reserve. I prefer getting a grip on both the cutaway and silver. Pull cutaway, followed immediately by silver. If unstable, give it abit more time, so the main can seperate away from me, before going for silver. I guess whatever makes people comfortable. Don't think there's a right or wrong. RSL discussions can go on forever. As far as AADs go, ask anyone who was saved by one. Take Air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pa2themd 0 #24 July 11, 2003 I agree that owning an RSL or AAD should not prevent us from following our Malfunction Drill. ALWAYS finish your drill...when I had my first mal (Line Over) on student canopy, I cut away and pulled silver, the fact that I had both an AAD and RSL on my rig never even entered my mind. However... a very good friend of mine who had a mal before had another and she only pulled silver approx 100ft AGL... the result we know. This made me reaccess my position...what could possibly have happened to stop her from pulling silver...a debate for the incident forum but it made me re-think my position! I also have a little one on the ground who would not be happy with her ma if something happened. Thanks for your uinput guys!!! It is sooo good to hear both arguments. That way I can make an informed decision!! Blue skies to you all "Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else!" Ivern Ball Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #25 July 11, 2003 JE!!!! I never knew this was you!!!! How's the AFF going? That picture on my avatar is of my little girl Dakota. She is almost 3 now. I snapped that picture of her yesterday and thought I'd put it up there. She is a pretty neat little girl. I'll be down in your neck of the woods around the 11th or 12th of August. Can you come out to the drop zone and play? I know we have a definite 2 way and more than likely a 4 way ... wanna come out and make it a 5 way? It would be so nice to see you. We can share some stories of our wildest AFF adventures. I've got a few good ones. Anyway, its great to see you here. Blue skies, Miss ya! JenORoy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
