When to advise SL to an AFF student?

[poohbeer 0]

I'm an AFF student with 5 jumps so far and still not quite aware in the sky.. well, I was starting to get aware but since I'm on a 2 month brak from skydiving I'm probably have to start over again.

Now my idea was that since my main problem is being aware (well, the main problem still is getting too worked up and scared on jumprun and doors open but..) it was good to have 2 or 1 instructor with you so they can see what I'm doing wrong, signal me and debrief me properly after the dive.
Being aware here meaning keeping my mind on for example leg position while having to turn with my arms. I tend to loose focus on 1 thing when doing another.

My thaughts are I'll get there but now I've been advised by an experienced skydiver (on this forum so he has not seen me jump) that static line might be more suited for me.


So what is best according to you folks?
To give you an idea of my progress, find below logbook as I remember it out of my head.

jump1: exit ok, canope control ok, landing ok, woke at 6k but totaly not aware, legs on my but, JM saved my life

jump2: exit ok, CC ok, landing ok, getting more stressed on the way up and jumprun, woke at 8k, no practice pulls, legs on my but, saved my own life

jump3: exit ok, cc ok, landing ok, even more stressed in the plane, woke at 10k, knees to far appart

attempt4: freaked out in the plane, rode down with plane

jump4: exit ok, cc ok, landing ok, stresslevel reasonable, woke at +10k, knees to far appart, hands too far out

jump5: (1 JM) exit ok, cc ok, landing ok, stresslevel again a bit higher but ok, woke at +10k, hands too far out, not stable while trying to turn caus I loose focus on my legs

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[Tonto 1]

Over here you may not move from AFF to SL.

Reasoning is simple. Once you've jumped from altitude, should you return to 3500... no "alarm bell" would go in your head when getting low.

Complete the AFF program or stop jumping.

SL is not where your solution lies.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Malev 0]

I've PMed seperately, but basically AFF can be a bit of rocky road sometimes, but its worth sticking through it. Staying current definitely helps as well though.

Quote

Reasoning is simple. Once you've jumped from altitude, should you return to 3500... no "alarm bell" would go in your head when getting low.

Thats a good point, although how does that fit in with Hop 'n Pops (not a critism of the reasoning, but a curious newbie question)? I do agree that SL would not be the way to go though!

[surf4life11 0]

One word will sum up a lot in this sport, "RELAX"! Find that happy place and just relax. I am still nervous when I get in the plane but when that door opens I am all business (that is business in a fun and exciting way of course). Be safe and blue skies!

[andy2 0]

biggest peice of advice my JMs gave me was...STAY CURRENT and RELAX. Its fun man, but its fun that if you dont practice, you suck at. You need to stay current, or think about saving your money up so you can go through AFF in a few days. Don't spread it out over 4-5 months, it makes it a lot harder (I know, I did my first 6 jumps that way, then my last 3 were on the same day and it was SO MUCH BETTER). Your learning curve will sky rocket while doing multiple jumps a day. And being a beginner that gets a bit apprehensive on jump run, the second jump of the day is a LOT more relaxing, at least it was for me!

I hope I helped. blue skies.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[skydivejersey 0]

Doing sl after aff is like learning to crawl after your a todler. IMO.
The hop and pop is to prive you can get stable quickly on exit without needing 10k's worth of altitude.

[mikeat10500 9]

Quote

I'm an AFF student with 5 jumps so far and still not quite aware in the sky.. well, I was starting to get aware but since I'm on a 2 month brak from skydiving I'm probably have to start over again.

Now my idea was that since my main problem is being aware (well, the main problem still is getting too worked up and scared on jumprun and doors open but..)

Your awareness will improve with every jump. If you
can lower your stress level and get/stay current...than
you can do anything you want(total freedom).
Here is the tricky bit....to lower your stress levels
you must ask yourself...."Why am I so worked up?"
My answer was "I'm afraid I may die!" So I gave it some thought and made my choice. I decided the risk was worth it...You may not.
....mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[nightjumps 1]

With the new Integrated Student Program, they all count - including Tandems.

You can wade through each of the method-specific modes of instruction towards success. If you feel an S/L will help... go ahead and do it. Learn at your own pace and explore. You've got 25 jumps to get your A license. It doesn't matter how you get there.

[Tonto 1]

Re: Hop and Pop.

This is your graduation dive off AFF. Not comparable to not completing a supervised program and then jumping from lower altitudes repeatedly.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

Over here you may not move from AFF to SL.

Reasoning is simple. Once you've jumped from altitude, should you return to 3500... no "alarm bell" would go in your head when getting low.

Complete the AFF program or stop jumping.

SL is not where your solution lies.

t

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I disagree.

If a student is overwhelmed by AFF, theni.e. static-line.
The first few AFF dives involve huge new amounts of new information and sensory overload. Not all students can handle that much new information at one time.

The best instructional program sues a variety of methods to impart new information in small doses. For example - in Canada - about half the students have done a tandem before they start solo instruction. Then most of students do two or three IAD (similar to static-line) jumps before they get anywhere near a freefall instructor. Once they have completed all five levels of freefall instruction, they do a few coach dives to polish skills before writing the A exam.
If we had wind tunnels in Canada, we would encourage students to spend some time there before beginning formal freefall instruction.
Sure, a few of the best students can absorb it all in one jump, but most students perform better when new information is presented in small doses.

[Tonto 1]

"I disagree."

Well that's your right. Just means you can't teach here, cos thats the rules.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Does 'woke' imply that you passed out? That is crazy! How do they keep advancing people who continually pass out in the air. That is dangerous, imo. I am not trying to be mean or anything, but if I kept passing out, I might reconsider whether this was for me. Is it normal to pass out?

Angela.

[dragon2 0]

Quote

Does 'woke' imply that you passed out? That is crazy! How do they keep advancing people who continually pass out in the air. That is dangerous, imo. I am not trying to be mean or anything, but if I kept passing out, I might reconsider whether this was for me. Is it normal to pass out?

Angela.

Usually people don't really pass out
But most people suffer from something called 'sensory overload' initially.

Myself, I can't remember my first 4 exits (3 SL, 1 tandem). Sorta like: okay I'm moving to the door - hey, canopy. And with the tandem: moving to door - wow that island looks TINY from way up here, lotsa sea around.

After that, I was fine.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[bigbearfng 15]

Being an aff student still myself.....
Even if you are passed by your jumpmaster-if you felt shaky with it-don't hesitate to request to repeat a level! Then you're repeating something you've already done-may just help you too with decreasing that stress level and improving skills/awareness......

[conhails 0]

I recently passed my AFF. (in fact this is my first post!).

Have you tried using a wind tunnel? I hit a real wall at my level three, and my confidence was really low. The instructors suggested the tunnel as my main problem was not being confident in my ability to 'chill out and arch'.

I then did 10 minutes in the tunnel (albeit with a fairly rocky start!).. Wow.

The next day i sailed through the rest of the levels and did another 25 odd jumps over the next week.

Can't say it'll help for you, but it really gave me a massive boost, and basically reassured me that once I was in the air I would know what to do. With that in mind ascent to altitude and exiting the plane were much much easier!

Nick

_______________________________________
Life is not measured by the breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.....

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Yes, but how can they pass someone through, say level 2, if they didn't even perform the tasks? On my level 2, I had to do 1 circle of awareness, 2 test pulls, a right turn, a left turn, and a forward. I can see if you miss one thing, or even two, but this person didn't get any of those done, he woke at 8k, not test pulls, no tasks, and saved his own life. The other levels don't seem like he's gotten through what he was supposed to, either. Is it really safe for the school/DZ to be passing someone who is not really passing? Also, why would you want to pass? The way I see it is, he's getting worse maybe because he has more things to perform, and he is nervous/stressed that he won't get them done, and therefore he isn't, and then they pass him, and again, same deal, only worse cuz really no experience to build on. Doesn't sound reasonable to me. I think he should ask to go back a level or three.

jmo, doesn't sound like the best school.
Angela.

[poohbeer 0]

SkydiveNFlorida: see dragon2's explanation on the "woke up" part. I offcourse did not physicaly pass out.. I just "wasn't there" for a few moments.

bigbearfng: ghehe, I got send up again and again to do the same stuff.. they called it lvl 4 on to lvl 5 but I still was not doing any turning or so untill jump 5 & 6. My guess is the instructors were trying to give a confidence boost and hoping it would "click into place" soon

conhails: I was planning on going up in a tunnel before going up in a plane in 3 weeks, but as good luck wants it the only good tunnel in a few 100km around was booked full untill it closed a week after my enquiry and will remain closed untill a week past my holidays. Bummer huh.

SkydiveNFlorida: no way would my instructors have passed me for solo if I wasn't up for the task.. they were just a bit creative in naming the dives.. see my explanation just above. There is a reason I number my JUMPS and not levels in my opening posts.
Only in jump 5 and 6 (yea, I forgot to add jump 6) I was beginning with turning and headingcontrol.
PS: where do you read my instructors even passed me 1 level?!

I've been thinking about it and my guess is mikeat10500's post hits the nail on its head (this is also a saying in english right?).
I guess I'll find out in 3 weeks..

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Saw the explanation, just seems to me if you are unaware, it would be scary to move on nearer and nearer to jumping solo. I don't get it, so, this was all level one? I guess I would just figure the way you named them, Jump 1, jump 2, jump 3, attempt 4, jump 4, jump 5... it seemed like these were levels, I didn't realize that they were maybe the same levels, or half levels, or whatnot. I suppose I should not have assumed, *doh*.

Anyhow, you know what is best for you. It just seemed to me that they were passing you through levels when you were still not even coming to for some time, and not mentioning any performed/completed tasks. Sorry if I offended you, it just seemed scary to me to keep going up there for more stuff when you hadn't passed the former.

Good luck with the rest of your course, tho! Angela.

[poohbeer 0]

Update on the topic (for future readers)
I'm SO glad I didn't "step back" to static line.
My AFF course went soooo good. unbelievable it was!
Restarted with level 3 which went perfect, lvl 4, 5 and 6 also. Level 7 I had to redo.. little problem stopping a left turn (only stopped it like 360° later than planned) but the second attempt was gold.. perfect dive!

After that great first dive of the week (level 3 with 2 instructors) I actualy even managed to relax on the planeride for the 2nd jump after that 2nd dive (that same day) I was thinking "mm, why ain't I scared?!". You can imagin the rest of the week was just superfantastic..
Any fear I had totaly subsided and jumping became ENORMOUS fun.. much more fun then when stressed all over the place.
Oh, hanging outside the plane doing an unstable exit is actualy fun instead of stressfull once you can relax

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[vonSanta 0]

Way to go poohbeer.

In a year or so you'll be arguing with the moderators on this forum, calling them wussies .

A bright future indeed lies before you.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[XWuffo 0]

***I'm SO glad I didn't "step back" to static line. My AFF course went soooo good. unbelievable it was!

Quote

Great stuff poohbeer, good on you ! Seems like Tonto's advise was right for you after all.

As we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough."
- Tonto

• Quote

[betzilla 56]

Static line was great for me -- it all happens in really small steps, so it wasn't AS overwhelming as I think AFF must be.

But you might just do better with a program of freefall jumps that is longer than 7 levels -- something like the Integrated Student Program.

And/Or take a road trip to a wind tunnel and get in there for a few minutes -- it would probably make a huge difference.

IN any case, awareness is something that grows with each jump. With only 5 jumps, you have to expect things to be a little rocky: imagine trying to learn to ride a bike just one minute at a time, once a week. It would have taken you forever! But that's what we do when we learn to jump, and that's probably why people who are able to jump 2 or 3 times per jump day as students, tend to graduate after fewer jumps -- their learning curve is steeper because the repetitions are closer together.

Good luck! If you really want it, you'll get the hang of it. Be patient with yourself too. there's an awful lot to learn, so you can't expect to learn it overnight.

[Tailgate 0]

I'm a newbie also, but here is my $.02 worth.
My first tandem instructor took me out sideways and did a couple of 360s which was a little disorienting ( but in retrospect, fun). The second tandem, I was aware going out the door. My first AFF I remember my instructor talking me through the jump on the ride up I think he did this to calm me a bit and give me something to focus on. (He knows I hate the ride up). When it was time to go to the door, I remember everything up to the exit. I don't remember the first 300-500 feet of the freefall ( distance based on my first altitude reading after stabilizing) after that everything was great. They tell me that I arched well off of the tailgate ( jumping from a CASA). Don't know if this will help, just my experience

_________________________________________________
Let me live in my house by the side of the road and be a friend to man- Sam Walter Foss