What do you say?

[skybytch 259]

You're picking up your canopy after another sweet swoop. A guy with a fresh A license comes up and says "That was awesome! I want to swoop. How did you do that?" What do you tell him?

Would what you say change in any way if the person asking had 50 jumps? 100 jumps? 500 jumps?

Be honest now. Remember you're still pumped up from the skydive and the swoop when you answer, you're not sitting in front of your computer.

[davelepka 4]

Get your PRO rating first. That will demonstrate some competency under canopy. Then take an advanced canopy control course. Next, spend 100 jumps each working with different degrees of building speed, i.e. double fronts, 45's, 90's, 180's, and 270's.

This is pretty universal advice. If you have 100 jumps, it will take a bit to get the PRO rating. If you have 1000 jumps, maybe you already have the PRO rating, or you could get it in the next ten jumps. Regardless of your jump numbers, if you have no swoop expereince (or if you do) the advanced canopy course is the way to go.

I jump with a guy who has two years in the sport, 1000 jumps, and jumps a Velocity at 2.1 to 1. Thanks to swoop coaching, he is competeing on the PST, and has a spot on the US team for the World Cup of Swooping.

Swooping a modern canopy is a world in itself. You wouldn't suggest that a whuffo make a jump without taking the FJC, so why would anyone attempt high performance landing without taking advantage of the available training?

[Blahr 0]

I'm the newbie asking the question

That said, I dont plan to try anything like that for a LONG time.
I'm still going to be interested in knowing the technique
and proably wouldnt appreciate being patted on the head and told to run along until I'm older.

I'm already older I'm nearly 40, I proceed with caution and safety formost in my mind, and really loathe being treated like a child or idiot.
I'm an inexperienced skydiver with a lot of questions.
Asking the questions doesnt mean that I intend to attempt things that are beyond my skill nor would I take a serious answer as encouragement toward attempting those maneuvers.

I think that your answer should include all the requested info along with a cautionary statement and suggestions about when it might be appropriate to actually attempt more advanced maneuvers.

The basic info should be the same regardless of jump numbers. The cautions and suggestions can be tailored to the individual asking the question.
Someone thats 18 years old with their hair on fire might warrant a slight different response than someone like myself.

Thats just one mature newbies opinion.

[mjosparky 3]

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You're picking up your canopy after another sweet swoop. A guy with a fresh A license comes up and says "That was awesome! I want to swoop. How did you do that?" What do you tell him?

Would what you say change in any way if the person asking had 50 jumps? 100 jumps? 500 jumps?

Be honest now. Remember you're still pumped up from the skydive and the swoop when you answer, you're not sitting in front of your computer.

I jump a 245 sq. ft. canopy, I would tell them to go talk to you.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[ZoneRat 0]

Let's see..."Robin, Robin, what a sweet swoop!!!"

Nope. Just can't seem to visualize that. lol.

---

But here's a few handy sitting-in-front-of-my-computer-type-responces-to-keep-in-your-pocket for next time:

50 jumps-100 jumps:

• Oh, that ol' thang? Heck. I jes land like dat when I don't care HOW I look. .
• Sure, I can teach you. You signed a waiver, right?
• Oh, I'm sorry. You cant swoop. Your feet are too big. No. Really! Look at my feet, now look at yours... see? Too big. Sorry.

500 jumps:

• If time and money are no object, I can teach you anything. Come on in. I'll tell what to do while you pack my parachute. (btw... I'm on a load in 15).

Robin

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[Blahr 0]

All things considered, this may in fact be the best approach

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Oh, I'm sorry. You cant swoop. Your feet are too big. No. Really! Look at my feet, now look at yours... see? Too big. Sorry.

[rhino 0]

lol

[rhino 0]

How about?? Do you have life insurance?

[nightjumps 1]

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What do you tell him?

After you've filled out the top portion of the Incident Report, we'll discuss it.

[whocares 0]

How do you feel about a long stay in the hospital?
Why dont we talk after a 1000 jumps or so.

[Ron 7]

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You're picking up your canopy after another sweet swoop. A guy with a fresh A license comes up and says
"That was awesome! I want to swoop. How did you do that?" What do you tell him?

first I tell them they need a new rig.

It needs to be able to fit a guy 5'6" and 155#.
Black with blue pinstripes. and it needs a New Cypres 2 with a PD113 and Velocity 96.

Then I watch him and get ready to run out and keep the EMT's from cutting my new gear!

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[twnsnd 1]

I actually would not expect a person with 500 jumps to react that way to a swoop, so we are really only dealing with very low time jumpers. And you cannot tell someone who really wants to swoop not to. I feel that the best thing you can do is explain to them that safe swooping does not happen overnight and offer them some basic tips....and then show them your scars.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[ZoneRat 0]

Ah yes, young grahsshoppah...

I will teach you to swoop as my sensai taught me...

First you must snatch this pebble from my hand.
Then you must walk across the peas barefoot leaving no trace... or peas stuck on those big feet of yours.
Then you must catch a fly with some chopsticks
Then you must wash and wax all the jump planes
Then you must paint the hanger
Then you must attend a canopy control class
Then you must attend another canopy control class
Then you must learn to rub your hands together really hard and fast until they're very hot and have the magic ability to heal all wounds... you'll need that.

Then, and only then, young grahsshoppah, will you be ready to learn the mystic arts of swooping.

Now, go get me a Red Bull... and be QUICK about it.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[TrickyDicky 0]

Do you think brushing someone off because they have low jump numbers might cause them to find someone (who may be far less experienced) to tell them how to do it and/or try it themselves from observation? If they did this, without the knowledge of dive loops they might be tempted to try it on toggles.

There is a guy at my dz who has around 500 jumps and always hooks it in on toggles . He is one of the more reckless people (seen vids wheres he dumped low a couple times and just has his cypres fire over the weekend, and went straight from club 220s to a sabre 135 which has to be loaded at least 1.5) but he did tell me (what I take as good advice, I think) that to learn a canopy, at high altitude, just pull each suspension line individually, and see what it does.wish I could, but my risers are too long.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[Vallerina 2]

I can't remember the story completely (sometimes, I don't pay enough attention), but freefallin14 was a young jumper and wanting to swoop. He said something to a big name swooper about how he wanted to swoop. The big name swooper asked, "Why?"

I liked that response for a few different reasons. Everyone hears (but may not actually listen to) the fact that you need much experience, training, talent, etc to be able to swoop. Asking the question of why makes you answer to yourself and experienced swoopers...if your answer is to look cool, to jump a smaller container, etc, then that answer should direct you away from hook turning, small canopies, etc.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[davelepka 4]

Two things. IF DONE PROPERLY, there's nothing wrong with toggle swooping (most people don't do it properly, and you can go faster with risers).

I have never heard of pulling individual suspension lines. That sounds like a huge waste of time.

[TrickyDicky 0]

It was just so that you know what happens when you do shit to your canopy. Pulling the suspensions lines to see what they do jest lets you learn when it gets deformed in certain ways.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[PhreeZone 15]

>but he did tell me (what I take as good advice, I think) that to learn a canopy, at high altitude, just pull each suspension line individually, and see what it does.

That sounds a good test for testing new line trims on canopies but as for learning a canopy its better to put it through the ringer and practice the same things on it that you will be using later.

Like:
How to judge its recovery arc (3-5 second arc rule)
Rapid toggle inputs
flat turns
rear riser turns
half breaks to flare
stalls
cross inputs
slow speed flight
high speed flight

and about a dozen other things that you can only learn by experienceing it.

Personally... I use the why do you want to swoop question. I also talk about how its the leading cause of broken bones and death and see if they are still intersted.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[davelepka 4]

Still seems like a waste. Besides, why are you taking advice from the "dangerous guy" on your DZ?

Also, be glad that your risers are long. Short risers will kill the performance of a canopy. Yes it will react faster with short risers, but it will fly further, and dive longer with longer risers.

[ZoneRat 0]

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Do you think brushing someone off because they have low jump numbers might cause them to find someone (who may be far less experienced) to tell them how to do it and/or try it themselves from observation?

I don't intentionally brush anyone off at the DZ. I was just being flip on my earlier post.

I'm not qualified to teach someone a hook turn setup, and wouldn’t try. (Certainly not while walking off the LZ to the hanger). I'd direct him to a qualified canopy pilot or instructor. There's plenty around where I jump.

Now... let's say the scenario was different. Let's say we're sitting on a bench watching jumpers land, and Mr. Fresh A license starts asking me about swooping.

I'd remind him that hook turns kill folk more than anything else. I'd remind him that skydiving is the only sport in the world that uses "femur" as a verb. Then I'd ask him to watch those hook set-ups closely. Those people are timing it down to the last second. What if a gust of wing catches them? What if they catch a burble off the hanger? What if a toggle slips from their hand or a legstrap slips in the buckle? What if that jumper catches a glimpse of color from the corner of his eye and gets distracted for a split second? What if he's tired and loses focus? What if anything ANYTHING goes wrong right then? What happens? They hit the ground at 80 mph. That's what happens. Imagine jumping off a motorcycle into a wall at 80 mph. That's the risk you take when learning to hook. When you watch 'em come in, watch their timing, and think about that.

I'd ask him if he's ever heard the sound made when someone hits the earth hard enough to shatter their bones inside their body. It's a bad sound. Sickens your stomach to hear it. I'd tell him about the time this guy biffed in 50' away from the benches. He'd upsized to a canopy that was only 10' bigger than his usual. It threw his timing off. He didn't acount for the change of recovery arc. Femured bad. Femure, pelvis, almost paralyzed. His 9 year old son watched it happen. When he started to cry, well... it was hard not to cry too.

Death is real. See that 540° hook setup that gal just did? That's the most likely way to get there. Right there.

I got 350 jumps (that'll sound like a MILLION to Mr. Fresh A license... he doesn’t know how paltry that is...) you won't catch ME doin' that shit... I don't want my friends crying over MY broken body. I owe 'em better than that.

Then I'd lighten it up...give him the good news. You don't need hook turns to surf. You can generate good speed in a controlled, safe, straight-in approach using front risers. Then I'd tell him how to incrementally dial that in.

.... I'd keep my eye on him for a while...

But that's just me.

---

(jeesh... would ya look at that?!?... I really should wait until after my first cup of cofee before I start posting, huh...)

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[tosca 0]

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"That was awesome! I want to swoop. How did you do that?"

If I was a good swooper I´d answer:
That I practiced canopy control for XXXX number of jumps.
Tell him what skills he need to do it. Give him advise on what the next step for him is if his interested. Encourage him to ask for more advise.

If I actually wasn´t so good at swooping and not the right person to give advise:
I´ll tell him that I´m still unexperienced when it comes to swooping, and introduce him to someone who can give better advise.

[gemini 0]

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I'm already older I'm nearly 40

That's good, but there are a lot of nearly 40's out there without a lick of sense in this sport. If I don't know you, how do I know you are not one of the rapid downsizers who is "better than everyone else"?

After all, we all want you to get to your 40th.

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I proceed with caution and safety formost in my mind, and really loathe being treated like a child or idiot.

I apologize to all who may have felt that I did not respect them through something I said. Please understant though that sometimes people don't listen or hear the cautions. We all get tired of our friends being hurt or worse and it is frustrating when inexperienced jumpers want to run before they can walk. Again if I don't know you, I am not going to hand you a loaded gun and walk away to let you figure it out alone.

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I'm an inexperienced skydiver with a lot of questions.

And that is very good, but you must understand that maybe I am not the one you should be asking at your experience level. Am I a coach or instructor? Do you know me? How do you know what I say is correct?

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Asking the questions doesnt mean that I intend to attempt things that are beyond my skill nor would I take a serious answer as encouragement toward attempting those maneuvers.

Famous last words! Many of us have seen people at dz's who with less than 100 jumps who started rapid downsizing, high speed landings, and wearing cameras who said they were a more advanced, better skydiver than their jump numbers indicated.

Granted there are a few, but unfortunately there are a lot of the others who paid a heavy price for their rapid progression, or barely escaped and hopefully learned from their mistake. Again if I don't know you, I have no idea what you will do with the information.

I agree with you that all skydivers should be treated with respect and that answers to questions should be answered to the best of my ability (or referred to someone with more expertise).

The last thing I want to do is give you something that you later use to hurt yourself or someone else. However if I can give you information that will make you a safer, better skydiver, I will.

Blues!

Blue skies,

Jim

[rehmwa 2]

Just like in anything else. Find out where his skill level is and take him one step at a time.

That is, if I was a 'good' swooper.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants