A side note to the Cypres question

[LawnDart21 0]

There is a running debate amongst many bonfire circles that I have heard around the country, that anyone that has a cyrpes fire that is not unconsious, should be politely walked off the drop zone and asked not to come back. The rationale being, that if you have a cypres fire because you A) lost altitude awareness, B) had a VERY low pull, and it fired during the snivel of your main, or C) panicked in a crisis, ie couldn't find your reserve after a cut away, that you shouldn't be in the sport and that your a future hole in the landing area anyways. So, short of being unconsious, or a legitamate misfire/malfunction of the unit (say, maybe back tracking for 9000ft and the unit fires high because it gets confused with the pressure change at pull time), the theory is, there is no excuse for a cypres fire other than being unconscious or disabled in freefall.

This question comes from an expeirence I had last year. I have approx 50 jumps without a cypres (2nd rig) and just over a 1000 jumps with a cypres. My only cutaway (to date of course, there are bound to be more) was on my rig without the cypres. I was approached after the fact with the comment "you were lucky you got your handles, not having a cyrpes to back you up". My response was simply "I was A)conscious and B) I rehearse my emergency procedures", there was nothing lucky about it. In that type of scenario, a cypres should not be a factor, if it was, I should be playing golf next Saturday.

Just a rant really, nothing more nothing less. Just curious if others agree or disagree with me.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[andy2 0]

how about getting the saved skydiver a beer and asking him if he's ok first instead of kicking him off the DZ? Later after the nerves have gone down a little you might want to talk to him about drilling down the safety procedures. Old dogs can change.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[LawnDart21 0]

I'm not saying I agree with the statement 100%. I know that no one is perfect, including msyelf. (Ironically, thats really the only thing I do agree with 100%.) I have seen numerous cypres fires for one reason or another, many by accomplished skydivers. My question/rant was really just an amplification of the same sentiment that I have heard at a few different DZs. Yes its a hard core stance, and no, I've never actually witnessed it happen, (someone getting walked off the DZ) that is why I ask the question. Personally, I agree with you about talking things out and learning from experiences, and I'm totally not an advocate for militant zero-tolerance guidelines, but I have heard others who are. And definitely, I see a trend of "cypres generation" jumpers viewing the device as a crutch, rather than what it is really intended for, a last ditch life saving device.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Several months ago, my Cypres fired at the very tail end of my snivel. But I wasn't as low as some would believe. I have video of myself initiating my main pull sequence at 2200 feet AGL. Yet due to several circumstances:

1) I was hauling ass coming out of a headdown jump and needed to slow down before I pulled.

2) My Sabre2 canopy is known to not open all that quickly.

3) I jump at a very high density altitude DZ.

4) And finally the Cypres will fire much higher than 750 when you're already under the saddle but still not open.

My Cypres could have killed me instead of saving me (of course I was the one to blame for being at 2000 feet without a canopy over my head). Now does this mean I should not be skydiving? I $@!^ on anyone who says "yes". Once again my video documents everything which happened on that jump (including hearing the Cypres fire at the tail end of my snivel).

Is initiating your main pull sequence at 2000 feet AGL dangerous? For many of us, the answer would be yes, but there are many old timers who have or still go lower (there's an older timer belly jumper at my DZ who shall remain anonymous is routinely going lower than 3000 feet because that's the way he's always done it).

Now I took several lessons away from that jump:

1) While I would argue that I didn't lose total altitude awareness (I was watching the planet the entire way and had every intention of getting on my belly and pulling), I was a little too reliant on my ProTrack and missed my break off warning. So when my pull warning sounded, I thought it was my break off warning and it only took about 2-3 seconds to travel from 3000 feet AGL to 2200 AGL (once again I have video evidence of this whole event). Now I have since adjusted my ProTrack warning altitudes higher than what they were on that jump and try to remind myself that I need to be less reliant on my audible (despite the fact that it is a very important tool for headdown freefliers).

2) Also, if I every find myself at 2000 feet AGL again with nothing over my head, I need to go for my reserve. But how many of us have that "go for your main instinct"? I know I wasn't the only one as numerous people (even some of the self proclaimed ultra experienced jumpers here on DZ.COM) have also gone for their mains while low. In fact, for those of you who have seen Chronicles III, you know of the low pull incident at the end of the movie and this guy went for his main.

3) Finally, a big lesson I learned is that I'm not immune from making mistakes up there.

So how many of you (and I'm sure there's a few skygods who will say yes) think I should not be skydiving because of my Cypres snivel malfunction? Once again I $@!^ on you if you say "yes". People make mistakes and hopefully if they are lucky, they learn from those mistakes.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Harksaw 0]

Quote

4) And finally the Cypres will fire much higher than 750 when you're already under the saddle but still not open.

I've never heard this before, can someone please explain?

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Quote

4) And finally the Cypres will fire much higher than 750 when you're already under the saddle but still not open.

I've never heard this before, can someone please explain?

I talked to an AirTek rep at Rantoul and told him about my Cypres snivel and he reiterated what many other people have said. The Cypres works off of air pressure and the air pressure is different when you're on you belly, your back, in a stand or headdown. The 750 feet we all know and love only applies to when you are belly to earth. In all other attitudes, the Cypres will fire higher. In my case, it likely fired at about 1100-1200 feet because I was under the saddle but still fast enough because my canopy wasn't fully opened yet. Once again, my video shows me initiating the pull at 2200 (this included a wave off, so I likely pulled somewhere around 1800-1900 feet) the canopy snivels like it always has, you hear the cypres fire (which I wasn't aware of at the time because believe it or not my reserve didn't come out of the tray and believe me there has been numerous debates about why it didn't come out and I no longer fly that reserve and instead have downsized one reserve size as the reserve was a little large for the container). And finally, I have video of myself stowing my slider with my wrist mount altimeter showing 1000 feet.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ron 7]

Quote

There is a running debate amongst many bonfire circles that I have heard around the country, that anyone
that has a cyrpes fire that is not unconsious, should be politely walked off the drop zone and asked not to
come back. The rationale being, that if you have a cypres fire because you A) lost altitude awareness, B)
had a VERY low pull, and it fired during the snivel of your main, or C) panicked in a crisis, ie couldn't find
your reserve after a cut away, that you shouldn't be in the sport and that your a future hole in the landing
area anyways.

I never say that they should be booted....But they do need to look at this sport again.

I don't put pulled low in there...If you pulled low you did save you life. And a CYPRES will fire as high as 1200 feet during a deployment (It gets tricked by the burble going away at it fires)

Quote

I was approached after the fact with the comment "you were
lucky you got your handles, not having a cyrpes to back you up". My response was simply "I was
A)conscious and B) I rehearse my emergency procedures", there was nothing lucky about it. In that type of
scenario, a cypres should not be a factor, if it was, I should be playing golf next Saturday.

I so agree with this..If you have a CYPRES fire you did fuck up...Even getting knocked out can be avoided in some situations.

But I see way to many people act like this...And this is whay I have been bringing up the device dependence of the "CYPRES Generation".


To CanuckInUSA :

Quote

Now does this mean I should not be skydiving? I $@!^ on
anyone who says "yes". Once again my video documents everything which happened on that jump
(including hearing the Cypres fire at the tail end of my snivel).

Oh hell yes you should quit! I know your type.

Actually you saved your life...low, but you did it. Now if you were awake and did nothing or freaked out...I may mean it when I say you should quit.

Quote

People
make mistakes and hopefully if they are lucky, they learn from those mistakes.

Yes, but what is a better sign that you should not be skydiving than not being able to save yourself becasue you lost altitude awarness, freaked out, or didn't handle a mal?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

My incident happened on a Saturday and while my rig wasn't ready to jump on Sunday (I believe the rigger at the DZ that day intentionally didn't repack things because he personally decided to ground me), I actually grounded myself (I could have jumped rental rigs on Saturday and Sunday) but instead, I video taped some friends landings and what is really cool is that two of those landings were good enough to make it to my recently released first (beer) skydiving movie. For a while I had the footage of my Cypres snivel in my movie as well, but recently replaced it with a bad ass pond swoop from one of Colorado's best canopy pilots (Chris Gray).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[flyingferret 0]

If we were all politely walked off after making a mistake that could have killed us, the sport would be pretty empty. Many of us look back, and go oh, crap.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[skymick 0]

I think it depends on the situation, but in most cases as long as the jumper is counselled about what happened and makes a good effort to rectify the problem then I dont see any reason why not to continue...just maybe under some supervision for a while.

Then again I heard of one jumper who had a mal (linetwists?) and cutaway (had about 80 jumps) when the jumper felt the canopy come off her rig she felt she had dont something wrong and actually tried to reach up and grad hold of the canopy! She obviously did'nt get it so went back to a stable position and prepared to die (this is all her own words too!) until the cypres fired.
\
Someone like like on the other hard should be told to take up golf (and luckily i think she did too )

[Tonto 1]

Mmm.

Interesting. Are you talking about low timers? 1st mals? everyone?

I have about 2500 dives without a cypress - about 1500 with one. I have 17 chops. 7 Tandems, 7 wraps/entanglements and 3 mals (I jump a highly loaded eliptical) I have a few straight reserve rides too - one of which was a prem in the door of a Cessna.

I've never used my Cypres, but I have it all the same. I beleive if it's ever used - it's more likely to be as a result of loss of altitude awareness than a loss of consiousness. Maybe that's being honest - maybe just a statistical likelihood.

I'd like to think that if I had one fire one day - that maybe people would think that I was current and capable for 18 years, and a 1 second brain fart shouldn't keep me out of the sport forever. I don't know. I'll let you know if it ever happens.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Chrisky 0]

IMHO it depends on a number of factors.

One is the reason for the low/no pull, taking into account the experience of the jumper and the number of cutaways by him.
To get him off the DZ would be too hard on first occasion imho.

If the jumper sees he has made a mistake (if applies), and sees he has to do safety drills over again, there is no problem, hopefully it won't happen again.
If he say like what the heck, i dont care, imho he should quit the sport before dying of his safety attitude.
If its a first time cutaway (which i.e. i didn't have yet), and he just gets a groud rush paralyzing him, hell, thats bad, but maybe he will pull that reserve handle next time? It's not an attitude problrm of him.
Any no-pull situation needs to be adressed and dealt with. If its the jumpers atitude this will be a hard job, grounding and sending him home *might* imho work.
In other cases i seriously doubt it.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[TrickyDicky 0]

I have no idea how long you have been in the sport, but Id have thought that there will be people around that jumped in the 70s and 80s with no AADs that lost altitude awareness and managed to get their reserve out by 100, 200ft whatever, just like a cypres.

If those people had been permanently grounded, Id think thered be fewer really experienced people around.... which would be a great loss to the sport.

Maybe the top instructors/coaches in 10 yrs time will be the people who have cypres fires today.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[Ron 7]

Quote

I have no idea how long you have been in the sport, but Id have thought that there will be people around
that jumped in the 70s and 80s with no AADs that lost altitude awareness and managed to get their reserve
out by 100, 200ft whatever, just like a cypres.

Nothing like a CYPRES save...They did it. Low, but they did it, not a passive save by a toy...they pulled.

Quote

f those people had been permanently grounded, Id think thered be fewer really experienced people
around.... which would be a great loss to the sport.

But they saved themselves...so maybe they did get grounded for a little while, but since they did save themselves it would not have been permenant.

Quote

Maybe the top instructors/coaches in 10 yrs time will be the people who have cypres fires today.

And you think thats a good thing?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skybytch 259]

My personal "rule" is if I'm awake and aware and the Cypres on my rig saves me (i.e I didn't pull anything), I'll be rethinking my participation in this sport. That's something each jumper needs to decide for themselves, just like deciding to buy/install an AAD or not.

Since I'm not a DZO or S&TA (or whatever the equivalent is in countries other than the US), it wouldn't be my call to ground someone, and I'm not at all sure how you would go about grounding someone for life. But I can see the value of a grounding (a couple weeks to a month or so) and a good "talking to" for someone who took no action and let a little box save their life.

[AndyMan 7]

If my cypres fired...? Not necesarily. It might have mis-fired, or it might have fired mid-snivel resulting in two out. I don't think those events would make me reconsider jumping.

If it did fire legitimately? I dunno, I'd certainly consider not jumping. It'd depend on if it fired because I brain farted, or because I was unable to pull. That makes a huge difference, I think. That said, this is a hypothetical, and I'd prefer not to have to make that decision.

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[lummy 4]

Quote

My personal "rule" is if I'm awake and aware and the Cypres on my rig saves me (i.e I didn't pull anything), I'll be rethinking my participation in this sport. That's something each jumper needs to decide for themselves, just like deciding to buy/install an AAD or not.
.

My sentiments as well.

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[phonics1981 0]

[reply if it fired because I brain farted...