themitchyone 0 #26 September 28, 2003 I've seen tons of research out there. Some stats say the chance of dying in a car accident equals the same risk as jumping 30 times/year (low number for most skydivers). Others say a day's skydiving is 75 times more risky than the drive home. I saw Finnish research that said 75% of fatalities never pulled the reserve, and 92% of deaths were human error. I guess it all comes down to accepting a certain amount of risk, and most importantly always being aware, esp. altitude aware."If the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girl's sports such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chip 0 #27 September 28, 2003 Wow! Not sure how you pack or skydive, but can only imagine given your comment. I assume you are exaggerating, as am I, to a certain extent, when I make such a statement to a nonskydiver. Generally just trying to make a point to someone who doesn't know anything about the sport, in order to open their minds some. But I'd be interested to see the statistics if they were available. Of course, to truly assess how close to accurate the statement might be, you would have to weed out the people who drive as you have suggested (at least in so far as they were a danger to themselves; their victims would have to stay in the statistical group), as well as the skydivers who have incidents due to carelessness in packing or flying. Point is, everyone doesn't drive responsibly and that is the reason for a large percentage of the danger of driving. I guess my statement is an idealistic one (note the reply I made to one person who selectively omitted the part about responsibility). I think that, going back to comparisons, if you eliminated all incidents due to an individual's own carelessness, and due to another's carelessness, my statement (which, again, is not said as a statement of fact but rather to make a point) might be more palatable to you. Peace ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chronistin 0 #28 September 28, 2003 QuoteSkydive responsibly or not, there's no way it's safer than driving. Well, that depends on who is driving. Believe me, if you would know my boyfriend's driving, you would agree skydiving is safer. Chronistin (Home @ http://www.fallschirmspringer.net/) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chip 0 #29 September 28, 2003 To make myself feel better??? See my subsequent response to Kris to put my comments and the intention behind them in context. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #30 September 28, 2003 Skydiving is the only sport where you can do absolutely everything right and still die. I am not exaggerating when I make that statement. I look at skydiving as a risk-management sport. It's up to each of us to identify the risks involved and either accept them or do something to reduce them. Example - the guy who jumps a .8 wingloaded square only on no to light wind days, has a Cypres and an RSL on his rig and always does belly solos is putting himself under far less risk than is the guy who jumps a 1.8 wingloaded elliptical, freeflies with large groups without a Cypres and always does a high performance landing. The second one is more likely to be injured or killed skydiving. Either one of them could die due to something totally beyond their control on their next skydive. I've been jumping for 13 years. I've lost more friends to skydiving in that time frame than I have to car accidents in the 38 years I've been alive. And for most of us, driving isn't a sport so the comparison doesn't mean much to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chip 0 #31 September 28, 2003 Again (and finally, as this could go back and forth ad infinitum), the comment is not made as a statement of fact but rather as an admittedly perhaps exaggerated claim to try to open a non skydiver's mind some small bit. And, again, I would love to see the numbers when (note my comment to Kris that this statement is made, perhaps, idealistically) you take away incidents due to any skydiver's carelessness. I guess that would leave mostly things like weather related incidents - and that too is a function of being careful. On that note, I will try to refrain from further verbal tit for tat on this subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firediver 0 #32 September 28, 2003 my 2 cents: I'm a professional firefighter. I'm also a Rescue Specialist for a federal agency that deals with terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. I ride a motorcycle and I scuba dive. Although many think that I'm a risk taker, and that may be true to an extent, i feel that I do things that may have some risk, but those risks are tamed by being educated at what I do. I'm more comfortable working with live nerve agent than I am riding my motorcycle in traffic. I'm also far safer making a jump than doing either of those two things. This sport is based on education and equipment redundancy. The risk is relative to the actions of the individual. Now, can somebody please get me a guinness and a shot of jamesons so I can ride my motorcycle to the DZ and make a jump while mixing up some nerve agent before I hook turn at 20 feet please???? Skydiving isn't scary;...but clowns...CLOWNS are scary! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #33 September 28, 2003 QuoteI guess that would leave mostly things like weather related incidents - and that too is a function of being careful. I knew a guy. Over 5 thousand jumps. Did everything right - new gear assembled by a good rigger, Cypres, jumping with others of equal skill. Died because a line caught on a grommet. His death helped make new gear safer - tolerances for grommet setting were tightened - but that's beside the point. He did everything right and he still died. Others who've been in the sport for more than a few years have their own "I knew a guy who did everything right" stories. Personally I give whuffos the real story - yes, shit can happen and you can die. I don't think it's fair to them or the sport to sugarcoat the facts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #34 September 28, 2003 Quoteto try to open a non skydiver's mind some small bit... On that note, I will try to refrain from further verbal tit for tat on this subject. An open mind is a good thing when faced with limited experience on a topic of any sort. That is what you want when you are talking to the whuffos, right? Having good listening skills is the best way to grow and learn. When I get the opinions of someone like Quade, Skybytch, etc - I listen because they have experience with this topic. I listen a lot when all the experienced people agree on something. They all understand your point, they all agreed on their response... good words. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #35 September 28, 2003 Saying things like "Skydiving is safer then driving" doesn't really help a whuffo that is not really sure that they want to skydive. They need to be able to handle the risk involved in skydiving. Like Skybytch says you can do every thing right and still die. If they can't handle the risk and are not really willing to expose themselves to high risk sports then they will most likely freeze up and get themselves killed in those moments in skydiving when they need to think quickly and make the right decision. It really takes a certain type of person to be able to handle it and they will seek out this sport. There will be no need to convince them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #36 September 28, 2003 Hi, Steve. I just took the survey, and it has some interesting questions on it. I would appreciate if you'd post the results of the study once it's completed. I am interested in seeing how things fall out. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #37 September 28, 2003 I know lots more drivers than skydivers. In the past 40 years three people I have known have died in traffic accidents. In the past 2 years six people I have known have died in skydiving accidents.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #38 September 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteto try to open a non skydiver's mind some small bit... On that note, I will try to refrain from further verbal tit for tat on this subject. An open mind is a good thing when faced with limited experience on a topic of any sort. That is what you want when you are talking to the whuffos, right? Having good listening skills is the best way to grow and learn. When I get the opinions of someone like Quade, Skybytch, etc - I listen because they have experience with this topic. I listen a lot when all the experienced people agree on something. They all understand your point, they all agreed on their response... good words. Bill - your experience is just as valid. Last April you were on the 2 point 120 way at Z-Hills. 2 people from that group have subsequently died skydiving.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #39 September 28, 2003 You know it really doesn't matter whether skydiving is less or more dangerous then driving a car. What does matter is that by saying so implies that skydiving isn't really all that dangerous. Skydiving is dangerous. Is it more dangerous then driving? There isn't really any way to absolutely prove to everyone one way or the other. I personally don't think that skydiving is less dangerous then driving a car. I feel that any new person interested in skydiving has to understand the risks that they are taking and be able to accept them. These risks need to be made real to them and not sugar coated. They need to accept responsibilty for their choice to skydive and understand that on any jump they could easily die. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #40 September 28, 2003 QuoteWow! Not sure how you pack or skydive, but can only imagine given your comment. I assume you are exaggerating, as am I, to a certain extent, when I make such a statement to a nonskydiver. Generally just trying to make a point to someone who doesn't know anything about the sport, in order to open their minds some. But I'd be interested to see the statistics if they were available. Of course, to truly assess how close to accurate the statement might be, you would have to weed out the people who drive as you have suggested (at least in so far as they were a danger to themselves; their victims would have to stay in the statistical group), as well as the skydivers who have incidents due to carelessness in packing or flying. Point is, everyone doesn't drive responsibly and that is the reason for a large percentage of the danger of driving. I guess my statement is an idealistic one (note the reply I made to one person who selectively omitted the part about responsibility). I think that, going back to comparisons, if you eliminated all incidents due to an individual's own carelessness, and due to another's carelessness, my statement (which, again, is not said as a statement of fact but rather to make a point) might be more palatable to you. Peace ... There are about 42,000 annual highway deaths in the USA in recent years, (about 17,000 of which are alcohol related). Since almost everyone uses the highways, this amounts to about 1 death for every 7.000 road users. There is roughly 1 skydiving death for every 1,000 skydivers annually. Now compare the amount of time you are at-risk from these activities in a year. I am at risk from skydiving (freefall and under canopy) about 10 hours/year. I drive more than that in a week. Not only is skydiving not comparable with driving risk, it's in a different league altogether. Another way of looking at it - each jump puts you at the same risk of death as driving about 1,000 miles. Just a few hundred jumps puts you at the same level of risk as a lifetime of driving. Of course, you may be more careful and conservative than others. But when I read the accident reports, it's amazing how often the deceased is described as having been very careful and conservative.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firediver 0 #41 September 29, 2003 I agree.....comparing skydiving to driving or scuba diving or anyhting else on an equal basis just can't be done. The only thing that is comparable is that in a vast majority of cases, serious injury or death in any activity is usually due to a human error. We combat that with education whether it be driving or jumping or using a tablesaw. Although, I did just read a warning in the instructions for a new digital camera telling the user to be careful not to poke themselves in the eye if looking through the viewfinder while pressing the function button...THAT's gotta make you wonder... Skydiving isn't scary;...but clowns...CLOWNS are scary! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #42 September 29, 2003 Chip & others . . . Sadly, I've been reminded far too many times in my skydiving career of one very important fact and please take the time to read and remember this during every conversation you ever have regarding this sport; You can do everything right in this sport and still die.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ifics 0 #43 September 29, 2003 QuoteDied because a line caught on a grommet Can you not pull your reserve when this happens? QuoteLast April you were on the 2 point 120 way at Z-Hills. 2 people from that group have subsequently died skydiving. Do you know what happened? I ask these types of questions a lot so I can get an idea of some of the things that go wrong. I am new in the sport and I love it more then I can explain. I understand that things will go wrong and I find myself spending time thinking what I might do during those times. Some time during my canopy rides at around 1,000' I wonder what I would do if something happened to my canopy at that height, would I be able to react and get the the reserve handle without freezing. I think yes but those are questions that cant truly be answered unless your in that situation. Its a scary activity but I love it... A lot of the deaths I read about are from low turns and collisions under canopy and such. I don't even know where I am going with this just thought I would type it out anyway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phonics1981 0 #44 September 29, 2003 See http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=263712;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; And http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=263712;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #45 September 29, 2003 It's risky. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #46 September 29, 2003 QuoteCan you not pull your reserve when this happens? First he cut away the main, which didn't go away because it was still attached to him by the line stuck under the grommet. Then he pulled the reserve, which entangled with the mess of a main trailing behind him and he spun in. Did everything right. Still died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites xavenger 0 #47 September 29, 2003 There are statistics on the page below that compare skydiving risks to other hazardous sports. I have no idea whatsoever how accurate these are .. http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/stats.html regards James Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dagny 0 #48 September 29, 2003 QuoteYou can do everything right in this sport and still die. Since everyone seems to agree this a definite fact for a skydiver, why do we do it? I'm scared on the ride up and scared standing in the door, but when I'm in the sky I feel great! And after I land I'm pumped up and happy and ready to jump again. What I can't seem to figure out, though, is why I keep jumping if it scares me so bad. And, yet, I love it and keep planning trips to the dz. No one who jumps plans on dying or getting seriously injured that day, so are we coping by acknowledging the risk while assuming it won't be us who burns in? Maybe we're just confident in our ability to handle problems under a time (and altitude) constraint? Or hopeful? Since I'm a newbie, I've noticed this conflict in myself...on the ride up, "I must be crazy, what am I thinking?". At the door, "no way I'm doing this again and tempting fate". In the sky "WOOO-HOOOO, this rocks, it's beautiful, I love this!". Under canopy "oh, god, I have to land this thing". On the ground, "that was AWESOME, put me on the next load!!" My family is probably wishing I took up basket weaving, instead...Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #49 September 29, 2003 Risk versus Reward for me the risk is worth the rewardThat and on every jump I don't actually think that I will die. I know there is the possibilty, but I think I can handle any problem that comes up. One day I will probably prove this wrong. Oh well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #50 September 29, 2003 Hell yes skydiving is a risky sport. But the level of risks a skydiver take may or may not be as risky as the level of risk another skydiver may take. As an example, the level of risk swoopers take (even the highly experienced) are much higher than the risks a novice skydiver may take under their boat of a canopy. But there's more to skydiving than just the risks we swoopers take, so there are dangerous activities all around the sport. However, as risky as the sport is, I still think riding a motorcycle has been the most dangerous thing I have ever done. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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beowulf 1 #35 September 28, 2003 Saying things like "Skydiving is safer then driving" doesn't really help a whuffo that is not really sure that they want to skydive. They need to be able to handle the risk involved in skydiving. Like Skybytch says you can do every thing right and still die. If they can't handle the risk and are not really willing to expose themselves to high risk sports then they will most likely freeze up and get themselves killed in those moments in skydiving when they need to think quickly and make the right decision. It really takes a certain type of person to be able to handle it and they will seek out this sport. There will be no need to convince them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #36 September 28, 2003 Hi, Steve. I just took the survey, and it has some interesting questions on it. I would appreciate if you'd post the results of the study once it's completed. I am interested in seeing how things fall out. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #37 September 28, 2003 I know lots more drivers than skydivers. In the past 40 years three people I have known have died in traffic accidents. In the past 2 years six people I have known have died in skydiving accidents.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #38 September 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteto try to open a non skydiver's mind some small bit... On that note, I will try to refrain from further verbal tit for tat on this subject. An open mind is a good thing when faced with limited experience on a topic of any sort. That is what you want when you are talking to the whuffos, right? Having good listening skills is the best way to grow and learn. When I get the opinions of someone like Quade, Skybytch, etc - I listen because they have experience with this topic. I listen a lot when all the experienced people agree on something. They all understand your point, they all agreed on their response... good words. Bill - your experience is just as valid. Last April you were on the 2 point 120 way at Z-Hills. 2 people from that group have subsequently died skydiving.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #39 September 28, 2003 You know it really doesn't matter whether skydiving is less or more dangerous then driving a car. What does matter is that by saying so implies that skydiving isn't really all that dangerous. Skydiving is dangerous. Is it more dangerous then driving? There isn't really any way to absolutely prove to everyone one way or the other. I personally don't think that skydiving is less dangerous then driving a car. I feel that any new person interested in skydiving has to understand the risks that they are taking and be able to accept them. These risks need to be made real to them and not sugar coated. They need to accept responsibilty for their choice to skydive and understand that on any jump they could easily die. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #40 September 28, 2003 QuoteWow! Not sure how you pack or skydive, but can only imagine given your comment. I assume you are exaggerating, as am I, to a certain extent, when I make such a statement to a nonskydiver. Generally just trying to make a point to someone who doesn't know anything about the sport, in order to open their minds some. But I'd be interested to see the statistics if they were available. Of course, to truly assess how close to accurate the statement might be, you would have to weed out the people who drive as you have suggested (at least in so far as they were a danger to themselves; their victims would have to stay in the statistical group), as well as the skydivers who have incidents due to carelessness in packing or flying. Point is, everyone doesn't drive responsibly and that is the reason for a large percentage of the danger of driving. I guess my statement is an idealistic one (note the reply I made to one person who selectively omitted the part about responsibility). I think that, going back to comparisons, if you eliminated all incidents due to an individual's own carelessness, and due to another's carelessness, my statement (which, again, is not said as a statement of fact but rather to make a point) might be more palatable to you. Peace ... There are about 42,000 annual highway deaths in the USA in recent years, (about 17,000 of which are alcohol related). Since almost everyone uses the highways, this amounts to about 1 death for every 7.000 road users. There is roughly 1 skydiving death for every 1,000 skydivers annually. Now compare the amount of time you are at-risk from these activities in a year. I am at risk from skydiving (freefall and under canopy) about 10 hours/year. I drive more than that in a week. Not only is skydiving not comparable with driving risk, it's in a different league altogether. Another way of looking at it - each jump puts you at the same risk of death as driving about 1,000 miles. Just a few hundred jumps puts you at the same level of risk as a lifetime of driving. Of course, you may be more careful and conservative than others. But when I read the accident reports, it's amazing how often the deceased is described as having been very careful and conservative.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firediver 0 #41 September 29, 2003 I agree.....comparing skydiving to driving or scuba diving or anyhting else on an equal basis just can't be done. The only thing that is comparable is that in a vast majority of cases, serious injury or death in any activity is usually due to a human error. We combat that with education whether it be driving or jumping or using a tablesaw. Although, I did just read a warning in the instructions for a new digital camera telling the user to be careful not to poke themselves in the eye if looking through the viewfinder while pressing the function button...THAT's gotta make you wonder... Skydiving isn't scary;...but clowns...CLOWNS are scary! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #42 September 29, 2003 Chip & others . . . Sadly, I've been reminded far too many times in my skydiving career of one very important fact and please take the time to read and remember this during every conversation you ever have regarding this sport; You can do everything right in this sport and still die.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #43 September 29, 2003 QuoteDied because a line caught on a grommet Can you not pull your reserve when this happens? QuoteLast April you were on the 2 point 120 way at Z-Hills. 2 people from that group have subsequently died skydiving. Do you know what happened? I ask these types of questions a lot so I can get an idea of some of the things that go wrong. I am new in the sport and I love it more then I can explain. I understand that things will go wrong and I find myself spending time thinking what I might do during those times. Some time during my canopy rides at around 1,000' I wonder what I would do if something happened to my canopy at that height, would I be able to react and get the the reserve handle without freezing. I think yes but those are questions that cant truly be answered unless your in that situation. Its a scary activity but I love it... A lot of the deaths I read about are from low turns and collisions under canopy and such. I don't even know where I am going with this just thought I would type it out anyway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #44 September 29, 2003 See http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=263712;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; And http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=263712;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #45 September 29, 2003 It's risky. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #46 September 29, 2003 QuoteCan you not pull your reserve when this happens? First he cut away the main, which didn't go away because it was still attached to him by the line stuck under the grommet. Then he pulled the reserve, which entangled with the mess of a main trailing behind him and he spun in. Did everything right. Still died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xavenger 0 #47 September 29, 2003 There are statistics on the page below that compare skydiving risks to other hazardous sports. I have no idea whatsoever how accurate these are .. http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/stats.html regards James Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dagny 0 #48 September 29, 2003 QuoteYou can do everything right in this sport and still die. Since everyone seems to agree this a definite fact for a skydiver, why do we do it? I'm scared on the ride up and scared standing in the door, but when I'm in the sky I feel great! And after I land I'm pumped up and happy and ready to jump again. What I can't seem to figure out, though, is why I keep jumping if it scares me so bad. And, yet, I love it and keep planning trips to the dz. No one who jumps plans on dying or getting seriously injured that day, so are we coping by acknowledging the risk while assuming it won't be us who burns in? Maybe we're just confident in our ability to handle problems under a time (and altitude) constraint? Or hopeful? Since I'm a newbie, I've noticed this conflict in myself...on the ride up, "I must be crazy, what am I thinking?". At the door, "no way I'm doing this again and tempting fate". In the sky "WOOO-HOOOO, this rocks, it's beautiful, I love this!". Under canopy "oh, god, I have to land this thing". On the ground, "that was AWESOME, put me on the next load!!" My family is probably wishing I took up basket weaving, instead...Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #49 September 29, 2003 Risk versus Reward for me the risk is worth the rewardThat and on every jump I don't actually think that I will die. I know there is the possibilty, but I think I can handle any problem that comes up. One day I will probably prove this wrong. Oh well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #50 September 29, 2003 Hell yes skydiving is a risky sport. But the level of risks a skydiver take may or may not be as risky as the level of risk another skydiver may take. As an example, the level of risk swoopers take (even the highly experienced) are much higher than the risks a novice skydiver may take under their boat of a canopy. But there's more to skydiving than just the risks we swoopers take, so there are dangerous activities all around the sport. However, as risky as the sport is, I still think riding a motorcycle has been the most dangerous thing I have ever done. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
