PhillyKev 0 #51 September 29, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can do everything right in this sport and still die. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since everyone seems to agree this a definite fact for a skydiver, why do we do it? Because the same can be said for crossing the street or taking a shower. Accidents happen. But you have to face the reality that you are increasing your risk of having a fatal accident by participating in skydiving. If you accept that risk for whatever reward you get from jumping, that's fine. But trying to rationalize it away by saying other things are more dangerous is futile. Not directed at you... Whenever I hear the driving is more dangerous line, I have to ask, does that mean you've stopped driving? Even if it were true, but both driving and skydiving, you've increased your risk. It's not like you took away one risk and replaced it with another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #52 September 29, 2003 >Again (and finally, as this could go back and forth ad infinitum), the > comment is not made as a statement of fact but rather as an > admittedly perhaps exaggerated claim to try to open a non > skydiver's mind some small bit. Well, if it's not true, but rather used to influence what someone thinks of the sport, it's about as valid as the comment that most skydivers are injured or killed by the sport. Which is true at a very basic level - I don't know many people who have not had a minor or major injury skydiving. But it's just as misleading. Which is why I try to avoid statements like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #53 September 29, 2003 A few monthes ago I posted a question regarding the safety of skydiving vs. driving. There are some interesting answers. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=584712 _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garycal 0 #54 October 5, 2003 That is a very good answer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliff 0 #55 October 6, 2003 Trying to relate exposure to risk while engaging in skydiving activities (on plane/ in freefall/ canopy flight/ landing) to driving is tough to do. I've seen some data on fatalities per 1,000 participants that compared boxing, mountain climbing, skydiving, and driving (among other things) on a Ga Tech web page. I'm not sure that the comparison based strictly on # of participants is very valuable. I'm not an economist, but we were kicking around the driving vs. skydiving argument for a while at school the other day. One point that economists might argue is that for most of us, skydiving yields little utility compared to driving. With the possible exception of a few professionals, most of us could give up skydiving tomorrow and our lives would not be affected other than on a recreational/ social level. On the other hand if we were to give up driving, our lives would be seriously changed. Most of us have to drive to maintain the standard of living that we expect. The suburbs don't work unless everyone drives. Going to work, meeting to meeting, groceries, soccer practice, school, etc. I think that the difference is important to note: I take risks driving to work every day because I have to. I take risks skydiving because I enjoy skydiving. For this reason I agree with kallend when he writes that "Not only is skydiving not comparable with driving risk, it's in a different league altogether" Knowing that skydiving is a risky sport that we engage in voluntarily should keep us on our toes. We should fight-off complacency when we make decisions regarging factors that are under our control. Packing, attention to spot, exit order, wing loading, cypres use, etc. cliff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #56 October 6, 2003 Its hazardous, certainly, but not overly 'risky'. 'Whats the difference?' I hear you shout... A hazard is a particular outcome from a group of events that is undesirable. The risk is a compound of the scale and nature of the hazard, and the probability of it occurring . EG, one hazard in skydiving may be hitting wildlife in freefall, eg a bird. Hazardous yes, but a very low risk. So you need to define 'risky' compared to other similar activities, which I see you've done on your survey. You need to also define risk acceptance criteria, aversion to risk, implied cost of risk reduction etc, it may also do some good to research the principles of ALARP (as low as reasonably practical), and its legal definition. (the HSE -UK govt.-home pages are good for this) You need to actually measure risk in order to make an sort of valid comparison, this will be difficult to do for skydiving as the data is way to spread out and influenced by many factors. eg opportunities for.... avoidance/minimisation of the hazard. control the effects of the hazard. mitigate the hazard. recover from the effects of the hazard. At the end of the day, you need to balance perceived risk against perceived benefits, and then throw a little chaos theory into the mix.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #57 October 6, 2003 QuoteAt the end of the day, you need to balance perceived risk against perceived benefits, and then throw a little chaos theory into the mix. Sheesh, Nac.... is that Engineerish for: Quote All you really have to do is ask yourself: 'I might get killed or worse while skydiving. Is it worth the risk to me?' ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emma 0 #58 October 6, 2003 I've seen more people die skydiving than driving in the last 3 years, no matter what crap I hear about 'it's safer than driving to the DZ' blah blah. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #59 October 6, 2003 Only if you get careless. If you plan your jumps well, and pack well, it isnt necessarily risky, although it is sometimes because of other people who are jumping with you should they not take care. I've had things go wrong, and it was close, but that I consider a wakeup call. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #60 October 6, 2003 QuoteOnly if you get careless. If you... And if you... and if you... the list goes on. Sure, as long as you perfectly pack, everyone in your group is wonderful, the wind doesn't pick up... As long as everything and everyone is perfect, it should be ok. Unfortunately, not everyone does the "if" part real well. This weekend at my dz, there was an inexperience jumper who flared too high and hurt his ankle. Then, an experienced jumper also flared too high and hurt his ankle. We had one guy in my group who got kicked in the face during a tight group exit. Those are all preventable and shouldn't happen, but they did and will continue to happen. Skydivers get injured. One of the last jumps of the day, a very experienced jumper could not cut away. He pulled his reserve and the tension on the cutaway cable was lessened enough so that he could chop it as it went into a downplane at 300 ft. Quotealthough it is sometimes because of other people who are jumping with you should they not take care. Do you know everyone that you jump with? All the time? I rarely know everyone. If a jumper goes to a boogie and does a walk-up load... Skydiving is risky because everything is not perfect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #61 October 6, 2003 your are right.....no one can cover all the possibilities ALL the time. Do youyr best, and hope the other guy does his best too. The kind of jumping I was into was mostly of my own making. I've broken lots of bones, but still liked the low openings as the best jumps. That was my choice. I sometimes wonder why I wore a reserve, but I guess somewhere the BSRs had a bit of an effect. just do your best...and beware that the worst can sneak up on you when you least expect it. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 3 #62 October 6, 2003 QuoteWith the possible exception of a few professionals, most of us could give up skydiving tomorrow and our lives would not be affected other than on a recreational/ social level. Well, what I'm about to say is anecdotal but when I first started jumping I had these mood swings where I would get really down about life and everything. My girlfriend at the time finally figured out it was due to me not jumping for several weeks. When I did jump my mood is good and my attitude towards others is positive. If I don't jump I am really really shitty. I got reminded of this when I didn't jump for 5 weeks recently. Its not something I can reasonably go without. Personally I'd rather hunt my own food and walk everywhere than go without a jump... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #63 October 6, 2003 Quote Well, what I'm about to say is anecdotal but when I first started jumping I had these mood swings where I would get really down about life and everything. I'm the same. Ive only been jumping since April and i cant get to the DZ anywhere near as much as I want cos of work and it pisses me off!! ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #64 October 7, 2003 Appollo 13 Commander James lovell told me (after his big problem flight to the moon) that what I was doing as a skydiver was far more dangerous that what he was doing as an astronaut. He reasoned that if I got into a problem situation in freefall, it was up to me alone to get myself out of it. If he had a problem in space, hehad millions of hi tech people around the entire globe who would be there to assist him in every way possible, and bring him back alive. Neil Armstrong told me the same basic thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mazevedo 0 #65 October 7, 2003 I scuba dive, I do moto trail, I use to go around with my mountain bike and I play squash. Moto Trail (4 visits to the hospital), scuba (never had problem), mountain bike (some bruises), skydive (1 pulled muscule). But squash is the most dangerous sport ever! I was knocked by my buddies few times, I almost had three balls instead of the two I was born and lost count how many muscule pulled while playing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,853 #66 October 7, 2003 QuoteI scuba dive, I do moto trail, I use to go around with my mountain bike and I play squash. Moto Trail (4 visits to the hospital), scuba (never had problem), mountain bike (some bruises), skydive (1 pulled muscule). But squash is the most dangerous sport ever! I was knocked by my buddies few times, I almost had three balls instead of the two I was born and lost count how many muscule pulled while playing. I've had a few bruises from squash too, but none of my friends died playing squash. I can't say that about skydiving.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mazevedo 0 #67 October 7, 2003 Ok, friend I was kidding, you are right. I know skydive kills and is one of the most dangerous sports one person can do. But one guy at my club, and he used to play everyday, just passed away playing squash. He had a heart attack in the middle of the court. When your time comes, nobody can hold you here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #68 October 7, 2003 Quote I've had a few bruises from squash too, but none of my friends died playing squash. I can't say that about skydiving. Lots of weekend warriors keel over with heart attacks. Bowling is the worse, though you have to keep in mind they were walking stiffs waiting for the first trigger to force the heart attack. But let's stop kidding ourselves - we got people trying to assert diving, driving, squash, whatever is more dangerous using selective vision. Few sports are within an order of magnitude of risk for serious injury or death. How many people do you know, here or in person, with fused bones from a hard thump? Or do you see at the DZ enjoying skydiving vicariously until they are cleared to resume? The rewards may outweigh the risks, but come on, they're certainly there. The good news is that a lot of the risk can be assumed, or passed, depending on the practices you use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoostedXT 0 #69 October 7, 2003 As sad as it is....there is only one thing in this whole world that is definate.......and that is we all will die one day.....Why live in fear of that day? Live how you want.......today....dont worry about tomorrow....for tomorrow may never come. JoeFor long as you live and high you fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all that you touch and all that you see is all your life will ever be. Pedro Offers you his Protection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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