shmali 0 #1 December 8, 2003 So this past weekend some friends and I were down at skyventure in orlando and started to think that tunnel flight is maybe a little different than real free fall. It almost feels a little like you have to force the dive than just letting it happen. Either that or it was just so friggin cold that we couldn't loosen up. Anybody have any idea what i'm talking about or have had similar experiences On a side note though, it was freaking awesome Pineappe Death Juice, If you have to ask you'd rather not know! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #2 December 8, 2003 Yup - It's a little harder, so you work more. Learn alot as a result, though. There are edge effects and it's easier to steal air from each other - even when not in another's column, sometimes just below and on the other side can affect the air for the other guy. And the fall rate stuff is different, as a slower fall rate in the tunnel puts you in a higher spot, but in real air, a slower fall rate will CONTINUE to separate you more as time goes on. This all can make you feel a little sluggish, especially with more than 2 people. I don't know about FF in the tunnel, but I bet much of the comparisons are the same. But the walls force you to keep in your spot and not always compensating for the other guys, that's a plus. So are 2 and 3 minute practice 'dives' ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gregaae3 0 #3 December 8, 2003 I've did 10 minutes in the tunnel. I felt the same way. It is much harder. They also don't like to pump up the air that much if you don't have any experience in the tunnel, because they don't want you flying up, hitting the roof and then tumblng back down, so you really have to concentrate on your orientation. You are also missing a few pounds on your back, so your cg and body position are all different. IMO, its not really worth it unless you get a good group rate going. Its only a matter of a few dollars versus regular freefall time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RozeAY 0 #4 December 8, 2003 QuoteIMO, its not really worth it unless you get a good group rate going. Its only a matter of a few dollars versus regular freefall time. The tunnel is definitely worth it. It is an opportunity to concentrate on your body position and skills without worrying about everything else associated with freefall (exit, break off, opening, canopy, etc). If you have a coach with you, you can hop out for a few seconds, debrief with your coach, and hop right back in to keep on working. Plus it is definitely a lot cheaper. You can buy an hour of tunnel time (the equivalent of 60 skydives) for $600. Assuming a typical rate of $19 per jump, the same amount of freefall time would cost you $1,140 which is almost double. Besides, if it wasn't worth it, why would so many skydivers use it as a training tool, including the world's top 4-way and freefly teams? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #5 December 8, 2003 what I've always wondered is how loud is it in there? Can you talk while in "freefall" or is it like the real thing? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #6 December 8, 2003 Air going by your head at 120 mph is loud inside or outside of a tunnel.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #7 December 8, 2003 QuoteAir going by your head at 120 mph is loud inside or outside of a tunnel. Are you sure, I thought they made tunnel air quieter so people would relax more? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #8 December 8, 2003 QuoteAir going by your head at 120 mph is loud inside or outside of a tunnel. Even louder with 5 electric fans just 40 feet above your head. Except in the movies. "Use your legs, Johnny! You're doing it." ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #9 December 8, 2003 QuoteAre you sure, I thought they made tunnel air quieter so people would relax more? Sparky No, but if people outside are big enough asshats, the tunnel air can be cigarette scented And at night, it's definitely mosquito flavored (wear a full face and avoid an all white suit if you can). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shmali 0 #10 December 8, 2003 I don't know how it used to be but it did seem relatively quite for what it was doing. They do have tons of these nifty earplugs that you can jam in your ear to help kill the sound. but they always fall out when you take your helmet off. so debriefing after a 2 min session is either done by yelling through helmets or hand signals. I had mentioned that it was really cold so that kinda deterred the mosquitoes. Pineappe Death Juice, If you have to ask you'd rather not know! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #11 December 8, 2003 Quote I thought they made tunnel air quieter so people would relax more? Relax more? Whaddya want them to do -- fall asleep? Seriously, relax more? They ain't skydiving. They probably aren't going to have a lot of double mals. I'll admit, from what I understand the tunnel -can- cause some injuries with sprains and dislocations, but it ain't skydiving dangerous. Then again, not a lot of folks run into walls during actual freefall. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #12 December 8, 2003 the wall was what really got me. When you're in the sky, moving six inches to one side doesn't really seem like much. But in the tunnel, the slightest movements are magnified by the fact that the wall is right there. There is obviously a beneficial aspect to this, since one eventually learns how to stay completely still, but it does take some getting used to. Matt ----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #13 December 8, 2003 Quote They also don't like to pump up the air that much if you don't have any experience in the tunnel, because they don't want you flying up, hitting the roof and then tumblng back down, so you really have to concentrate on your orientation. sorry, but i have to call b.s. on that statement and make it clear so no one is misled by your comment. they may have turned the air down a bit because you weren't flying totally stable, but it sure isn't because they are afraid of you hitting the roof. i've YET to see anyone unintentionally "hit the roof", as you say. The cone is 42 feet up and you are not gonna touch it. (edited to add: okay, maybe if you're 50 lbs and the air is topped out and the controller is unconscious...THEN you might have to worry about hitting the top.) as far as really having to concentrate on your orientation: well, uh, yeah. the reason people go there is to try and stay stable and fly, not to ball up and tumble around. tumbling around in the tunnel with no heed to basic body flight would be a waste of money. the air is adjusted by the (human) controller based on the person's body size and by the instructor's feedback while in the tunnel. the tunnel doesn't run at full speed right now anyway. ------ QuoteIMO, its not really worth it unless you get a good group rate going. Its only a matter of a few dollars versus regular freefall time. it depends on what you seek. sometimes people do get a bit frustrated because they don't fly as stable as they think they can, blame it on the tunnel, and never return. it's just a matter of being patient and being open to learning.i hope your first experience doesn't close your mind off to a really good way to learn to fly your body. as alison said, why would so many world champions come to the tunnel to train? and they do... i see 'em all the time when i work there. arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richclive 0 #14 December 8, 2003 I was there last month with my brother who's just finished AFF - I came out with a huge grin after 15 minutes, he came out with less time saying it had been a bit of a waste of money. The next day at Lake Wales we did a 2-way and he was flying noticably better. After he landed he shrugged and said maybe it hadn't been a waste after all. I think to judge the tunnel after one 10 min session is a bit harsh - most people ping around for that long before they get the hang of the tiny space. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #15 December 8, 2003 QuoteIMO, its not really worth it unless you get a good group rate going. Tell that to Alchemy. They practised and learned a lot of their back to back carves in there. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #16 December 8, 2003 The tunnel is an invaluable tool for learning to fly your body. As already stated, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be world class flyers there.That being said, I prefer to spend my money on jump tickets.I will probably never compete in world class 4-way or any other competion save (hopefully) canopy flight.I get a real buzz from exit, opening and canopy flight. I feel they are the best thing going in skydiving.When I go to the tunnel I always feel something is missing. There is.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #17 December 8, 2003 indeed there is something missing! i 100% agree with you towerrat. (now, generally speaking) if you break a skydive down into sections, you have something like: exit diving to formation (if a chunk isn't launched) freefall stuff track deployment canopy ride landing the tunnel is great for the freefall portion of the skydive and can be used to practice the deployment portion as well (the "arch-look-reach-pull" portion, that is). exit timing can sorta be done as well. the freefall stuff is where the tunnel is most valuable. it helps people learn to do knee-turns and to fly your body moving parts other than just a dropped shoulder. body flight has progressed sooooooo far in the past few years that the potential hasn't even been met. that's it. tunnel time is not the same as a skydive...it's just an incredible simulation of the parts of the skydive in which you fly your body (sans wingsuit or canopy) and it provides you the opportunity to practice pushing air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #18 December 8, 2003 I truly believe that the tunnel is a very valuable tool for learning to perfect skills/technique. I want to fly my body beautifully and with much skill, so I will continue to go if it's a financial possibility. Although I can't afford to, I just now got off the phone with Brannon and booked myself a freefly tunnel camp as an early Christmas gift to myself. I currently don't know how to freefly at all, but I think that I will when I am done with my camp! I arrive on Wednesday. I hope to see you there, Arlo! ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #19 December 8, 2003 General comments. Thanks Arlo for the 1st hand info. See you in April. I love these threads. "It's not the same because of [insert anal nitpick here]". Look up the RW forum and you'll see a ton. As a training device, just like any other, you get out of it what you choose to get out of it. If you don't expect anything from it, don't waste your time (also, just as well not dirt dive or creep either though for the same reason). If you can see the benefit, then it's great. About as good a tool as any I have ever experienced. For those that say you can't simulate exits, tracking. True, not directly. But by being a better flyer and having more experience in redirecting air, you will be better at exits and tracking even if you never 'practice' this in a tunnel. As far as canopy flight, I've never seen any advertisements that the tunnel helps, but some of the Tunnelcamp coaches can give some great advice on canopy control while you are there........ If the tunnel time was frustrating after a 10 minute session, I'd say that's indicative of someone who needs more time than 10 minutes and maybe a little coaching. That small tunnel does a ton to highlight issues for new as well as VERY experienced people. It's humbling, so leave the ego at the door and you'll be surprised at the benefit. and so on, and so forth, ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #20 December 8, 2003 Hi Arlo! I absolutely agree with you.I didn't mean to imply that there is nothing to be learned. Everytime I leave the tunnel I realize how much I don't know. I was only saying that for me and the things I focus on, I has little use. As I already stated, If it had no value there would not be world champions practicing there.I also agree that it is alot cheaper than skydiving. I take nothing away from the wind tunnel, it just doesn't allow me to practice the things I want to.I REALLY like canopies. Wish me luck on not breaking myself!Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #21 December 8, 2003 Rosa - be safe there..... HAVE FUN ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #22 December 8, 2003 randy :) no way did i think you implied lack of learning in the tunnel. on the contrary, i thought your post was great! ). i think there's a balance to be had and even I'm learning that. i totally respect your decision to spend your money on jump tickets instead because you and i both know that you can't swoop your canopy after the 2-minute rotation in the tunnel. as bill (rehmwa) said, you get what you wanna get out of it and i think that is a wise comment. rosa, i may have to swing by to see you over the weekend since my work schedule won't have me there while the camp is in progress...enjoy the freeflying!!!! it is off the hook. :) hell, most people that see me freefly in there have no idea that my roots are in 4 and 8-way. blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manfall 0 #23 December 8, 2003 I don't know this tunnel, but I flew in the tunnel in Paris when i had problems with involuntary turns during AFF .. windtunnels may not be much cheaper than ordinary jumps but they are a helluva lot cheaper than AFF rejumps. My problem was that I wasn't relaxed enough .. arms and legs too stiff .. and that was easier to sort out in the tunnel than at 9,000 feet. 10 minutes got me sorted, and I even had a chance to learn about fall rate control and so on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeatherB 0 #24 December 9, 2003 Quotesometimes people do get a bit frustrated because they don't fly as stable as they think they can, blame it on the tunnel, and never return. Much to the detriment of my bank accounts, I have not given up. The tunnel is VERY humbling. Don't go there for the first time expecting to fly like a rock star. As for tunnel flight vs real flight. To me, freefall feels a lot smoother than the tunnel air, but other than that it feels the same. Maybe a little "easier" than tunnel air. Quotei've YET to see anyone unintentionally "hit the roof", as you say. The cone is 42 feet up and you are not gonna touch it. But Arlo, I've really tried! At some point...I just can't go any higher and I just kinda fall. It's really a rather amusing feeling. Like Randy said, if I had to choose b/t jumps or tunnel, I'd choose jumps. Or if I was into swooping (bwahahaha!) and not so much the freefall, it would be silly to spend gobs of money at the tunnel. But hell, I like this crap. I didn't know I had knees til I started going to the tunnel. Going again on Sat night, yeehaaaa! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #25 December 9, 2003 I was at the Perris Wind Tunnel this evening and got a real fun show watching the FlyBoyz in action there. We all know that they're awesome freeflyers, yet in their first introduction to the tunnel they were alot more calculating and cautious in their moves. Alchemy, however, gave us a show with their over/unders and other moves together....! That learning curve is going to be awesome! It sure is small space in the tunnel when you compare it to the great outdoors... ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
