rhino 0 #76 February 21, 2004 QuoteNo they don't. Yes they do.... Take a poll if you feel froggy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #77 February 22, 2004 QuoteI am not sure how the 3rd class medical works...but wouldn't that have to be disclosed for that? What are the health requirements? just a thought.... He could and should disclose his condition to the doctor. If the doctor doesn't see a problem, then there is none. You either have a 3rd class medical or you don't. If you can get one while being HIV+ than there it stops and no one else needs to know. Quote (not you but rhino - posting economics...) Yes they do.... Take a poll if you feel froggy... What is to be proven by taking a poll here? Witches and devilworshipers should be taken to a bonfire so that decent people can feel warm and fuzzy? No thanks... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyrat 1 #78 February 22, 2004 Scott You said the most accurate and positive thing in regard to this subject. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #79 February 22, 2004 QuoteWhat is to be proven by taking a poll here? Witches and devilworshipers should be taken to a bonfire so that decent people can feel warm and fuzzy? The student has a right to know. AS DOES A Tandem Master that has a STUDENT WITH HIV.. It goes both ways in my opinion. I'm surprised at the lack of INTEGRITY and HONOR that some people are displaying. Just PISS POOR JUDGEMENT. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivexxl 0 #80 February 22, 2004 Quote Just PISS POOR JUDGEMENT. Rhino In YOUR opinion... Honor is respecting your fellow man. Embracing differences... Blog Clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #81 February 22, 2004 QuoteAS DOES A Tandem Master that has a STUDENT WITH HIV.. Which is an addendum that wasn't there the first time you shared your opinion with us. And although it looks mighty political correct, it has no practical implications in the real world. We don't test our passengers for HIV. A passenger that signs up for a tandemjump does so with the assumption that no 'mixing of body fluids' is involved and he or she is right (if everything goes according to plan). I made a few tandemjumps in my life but during the jumps I managed to avoid that. Don't let the passenger bleed all over you and even more important don't bleed all over your passenger. First rule of the game, if you catch my drift. I'm pretty sure tandemmasters have taken up HIV victims without being aware of the passengers condition. We are on the terminally ill's shortlist, in case you didn't know. Several professionals have tried to explain here the relative risks involved. To no avail, it seems. Since a majority of the passengers would not jump with "deadboy2004" (if the poll elsewhere on the forum is in anyway representative) while catching HIV is the least of their problems, telling them would make him unemployed as a tandemmaster. I wouldn't hire him if I were obliged to tell the passengers. It is simply to much of a hassle. So even if there is a slight additional risk that someone is taking while he/she is unaware of it, the passengers estimation of the real risk is usually so far from what is really going on that I can live with that. Besides - they signed the waver, didn't they "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelem 0 #82 February 22, 2004 I don't see why you should have to give up tandems. Giving up incase people don't want to come to the dropzone because of you is a bad reason. Most tandem students are unlikely to hear about your illness, and even if they did they could (be unreasonable and) ask to jump with a different tandem master. Giving up tandems for reasons like this will only serve to maintain the irrational fear some people have about HIV (obviously unsafe sex and sharing needles would be rational fear). The only other reason to give up is the chance of infecting the student. Would you ban everyone with HIV from playing all contact sports like rugby? Consider the chances of: a) You both being cut and fluids mixing b) The student getting infected even if that does happen (fairly low) c) You both dying due to a malfunction, a risk the student is willing to take. If you are a responsible, experienced tandem master, the risk of death of serious injury to the student well probably still be less than a less experienced tandem master. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deadboy2004 0 #83 February 23, 2004 still here, but now want to be known as 'aliveboy2004'! I'm sorry to have created such a contraversy with this subject. It's amazing what 8 little words can create. Thank you to everyone who has been following this thread. The comments made here have been very valid for both sides of the discussion. Moral/ethical obligations on exposure to risk, on one side, and privacy/minimal risk on the other. Both really REALLY valid. I don't think that I ever considered the posibilty that one of my passengers might have been HIV+, I was actually more concerned if they had a beer just before the jump. Even when I had been barffed on, and yeah, gotten it in my mouth (ugh!), HIV status was the last thing I was thinking about - I just wanted to get my jumpsuit off! I jumped this weekend and did some tandems. I was trying to be more careful than usual and realized that my pre HIV actions and conduct seemed to be better than most of the other TM's. I am still fighting with myself if I should continue and will decide soon. One big problem - if I should decide to continue BUT inform my potintial passengers, should I then contact all the past passengers that I went with since last fall and inform them. What a mess................. Several of you have written me personal e-mails and every one has been supportive. I sincerely want to thank you and have been trying to send personal notes back to each of you. Like I said, I am now 'aliveboy2004' (thanks Chris)((but for right now e-mail address is still the same)). I am feeling much better about my future since talking with the guy at work friday. Took my blood pressure today and it was 111/81 instead of the 140/113 just last thursday. I am going to be getting in with the counseling center this week and get started with the medical part of it. I am done feeling sorry for myself and ready to get on with beating this thing. A REALLY BIG THANK YOU FOR NOT GETTING INTO ANY KIND OF GAY BASHING THING!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #84 February 23, 2004 QuoteOne big problem - if I should decide to continue BUT inform my potintial passengers, should I then contact all the past passengers that I went with since last fall and inform them. What a mess................. Why would you? Unless you exchanged fluids with them there's no good that can come of letting them know, and no bad can come of not letting them know. Right? QuoteI am done feeling sorry for myself and ready to get on with beating this thing. Good for you, and good luck with everything. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JVig 0 #85 February 23, 2004 I am sorry to hear about your misfortune. If you will miss doing tandems then try and stick with it. Let your situation be known and let the student decide whether or not to jump with you. Do not be surprised if you are judged harshly by many frightened and sometimes misinformed individuals. Good Luck -------------------------------------------------- Just remember.....if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #86 February 23, 2004 Quote Considering that HIV/AIDS is a terminal illness (read: no known cure and kills every time), I think that the responsible thing to do is to quit with the tandems. . . QuoteDoes the student have a right to know that his/her tandem master has a terminal, and contagious, disease? QuoteIt doesn't need to be far along. It doesn't need to be outwardly apparent. You only need to be the carrier of a contagious, and terminal, disease. QuoteWhy not HIV, or hepatitus? Doesn't the student have a right to know that in addition to the risks of skydiving that he's also exposing himself to uncurable, and eventually terminal diseases? QuoteI'm concerned with what I perceive as a moral obligation to inform someone who you might just get bloody with that you have a terminal, and contagious disease. QuoteThe post that you replied to made no mention of HIV, and if you'll continue reading this thread you'll see that I made a reference to HIV and Hepatitus, two terminal, and contagious, diseases. Bullshit. Ignorance. Yeah, Jimbo - we get the message that you believe it is a terminal and contagious disease. But that doesn't make it true. Ever hear of Magic Johnson? Or the thousands of others who will live normal lifespans after contracting the virus, if treated early and aggressively (and possibly with a bit of luck.) Contagious - yeah, we get that too - with almost hysterical clarity. But again, it doesn't make it true - the contraction rates outside of IV/sex are incredibly low - almost non-existent. The more important issues here, IMO, are of privacy, relative risk, and personal choice. Those issues have been addressed nicely by scottjaco, casquito, andyman, Liemberg and others (thank you). Still, I felt compelled to call bullshit on these points, especially since they are given so often and emphatically. Ignorance breeds fear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #87 February 23, 2004 QuoteStudents or passengers that he is doing tandems with DO HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW. When someone that is HIV+ has sex with someone without telling them that they were HIV+ they can be charged criminally. Yes, that's right CRIMINALLY. I see this to be no different. YOU may think they HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW, but that doesn't make it so - at least not in this society, in this country. You want to know whether people you come in contact with have a virus? Write your congressperson and try to get a law passed. Until then, sorry - you're out of luck. And the CRIMINALLY thing? No different? What a crock of shit. There is a huge difference between willfully engaging in high-risk behavior and having an accident during extremely low-risk (fluid transfer) behavior. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #88 February 23, 2004 Witches and devilworshipers should be taken to a bonfire so that decent people can feel warm and fuzzy? Ya! Ya! Burn them! Burn them! Heh Heh! Ya Ya! COOL! Heh Heh! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #89 March 12, 2004 Ok, partly agree with you. There IS virus in saliva. Only it's concentration is so low. that this isn't a realistic infection route. The risk of infection after exposure is indeed small. When an infected patiant is bleeding and a non infected person is also bleeding (crash landing) the possibility of infection is almost non existant, simpy because the bleeding causes the virus to be washed out of the non infected persons wound. I would tell it to your manager/chief instructor (don't know how it is arranged in the US exaclty). I've been stupid enough to perform first aid on bleeding persons without gloves and when I know someone is infected I'm probably more carefull, which I think, is my right. I most agree that you shouldn't yell it around, since alot of people are ignorant and even scared to be talking to you. Now jumping tandems. I've been thinking about this and my opinion (mine alone): In the Netherlands, as long as you don't have AIDS (simply because of bone degeneration and risk of your body failing in some way), you could jump tandems, as long as you are experienced and have a good landing reputation. In the US of A however I'm not sure (but I am not a US resident, so what do I know?) Thinking of the absurd liability system in the US and a jury system I would be a little more scared and might say you'd better not. But then again, I'm not US, so my opinion isn't based on any knowledge.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #90 March 12, 2004 To relativate your post... Hep C is not very contageous, only known to spread through shared needle use (it's mostly a "junkie disease") and blood transfusion. (Not mentioned by you, but still) Hep B can be vaccinated for (I'm it's mandatory in The Netherlands, if you are exposed to patient body fluids). And we DON'T HAVE MEDS THAT WORK ON HIV, we can only slow the disease down, not cure it. If you have an HIV infection you are gonna die most probably by it's effects, make no mistake. And although I wish otherwise, it's doesn't look we're gonna cure HIV at all or at least in the next 15 years. (Which means that IF we find a cure (Which I'm very uncertain we will) if won't be on the markter for another 25 years (If it can through a speedy clinical trial (which is as good a certain))The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #91 March 12, 2004 Maybe you're talking off-topic but to make things clear. Hep. (B) is in no way comparable to HIV. I stated earlier that in The Netherlands I wouldn't mind him jumping tandems. If he would have been infected with Hep (B) this would another story, I would advise him to stop. Hep B is extremly contagious and also deadly (although mostly not direct, but through Liver cancer)The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #92 March 12, 2004 Hi Bill, This would be the first time ever in my life I disagree (and probably the only time.. :) )with you, but here goes: I haven't read the entire website (Sorry), for from the frontpage I don't feel the need to. It;s full of BS/ incorrect assumptions. I'm busy getting my masters degree in Immunity and Infection and although that means shit, i can tell you it is VERY likely HIV is the cause of AIDS (which isn't a disease, but as the name says a syndrome) and it is VERY likely sexually transmitted. As a fellow scientist you know you can never prove anything that is true, only that which is untrue, that's why I say very likely instead of certain. The page has very much similarities with the anti-evolution/creatonism websites. Which also perfom pseudo science.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #93 March 12, 2004 I hate to say this but I would give up tandems. The chances of tandem student getting infected from HIV-positive tandem master are extremely low, probably much lower than chances of tandem student and TM going in due to double mal. However, the chances of getting a lot of shit because of tandem student braking ankle on landing and THEN discovering you are HIV-positive are higher. In a world with history of many ridiculous law suites there is no guarantee that someone will not start a law suite against you. I am really sorry, dude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
douwanto 22 #94 March 12, 2004 A student has more of a chance being injured or killed by a TM who had one to many last night than getting HIV from you. You dont see those TM sitting their ass on the ground in the morning. The ones that are on meds dont post it on the bord next to the winds aloft so the students can make an informed decission. If you feel you can be safe and take that little extra care we should all be tacking with someone else life you should Keep doing Tandems as long as you feel healthy. Which will be a very very long time. KEEP doing what you love . Peace Love And Support Chris Whitley Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 0 #95 March 12, 2004 Hey dude... carry on as long as you feel good and fit... nobody needs to know your buisness... If you come up against any predujises let me know and I`ll give them a good slagging !! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluskidave 0 #96 March 14, 2004 Lisa, when was your last tandem jump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #97 March 17, 2004 Why should you open up your personal life to somebody based on an unreasonable phobia? You're not going to give someone HIV by doing a tandem jump with them unless you're injecting heroin on the way up and sharing the needle. The same irrational arguments could be made for tandem instructors that are gay. I see a lot of homophobia with men doing tandems with male TIs. I know a lot of homophobic whuffos that would want to know, and refuse a tandem with, a homosexual TI. But sex doesn't have anything to do with tandem jumps, and neither does transmission of HIV. Maybe we should prevent HIV+ people from getting on roller coasters? After all, you could bash your head with someone sitting next to you and share bodily fluids. Maybe we should ban them from driving or riding in cars and busses? Wouldn't want blood splatter from an accident to get on me if I'm a passenger. How about public bathrooms? If they cut themselves shaving, I wouldn't want to use that sink. None of these fears have any basis in reality.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #98 March 17, 2004 QuoteBefore you panic, go to www.virusmyth.com. What you find will probably make you mad, but it will also make you feel a lot better. And after you people read that crap, you can try these resources, among others: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/faq/faq38.htm http://www.niaid.nih.gov/newsroom/focuson/hiv00/default.htm http://www.skeptic.com/03.2.harris-aids.html Although, since they're mostly on websites maintained by "the establishment", they're all a part of the conspiracy... Sigh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
