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Ron 7
Walk on the DZ this weekend.
Chances are that in 5 years one of the folks you see will be dead from skydiving.
1 in 1,000 active jumpers die each year.
The WFFC has a fatality almost every year.
You put yourself into a situation that if you do nothing, or the wrong thing...you will die.
Hell, you can do everything right and still die.
And just like russian roulette...every time you jump you risk death.
Russian roulette is not "safe" neither is skydiving.
I am really done here....someone else take it.
Chances are that in 5 years one of the folks you see will be dead from skydiving.
1 in 1,000 active jumpers die each year.
The WFFC has a fatality almost every year.
You put yourself into a situation that if you do nothing, or the wrong thing...you will die.
Hell, you can do everything right and still die.
Quotelike I said, I don't have to actually pick up that gun and play russian roulette to know that I have a 1 in 6 chance of blowing my head off.
And just like russian roulette...every time you jump you risk death.
Russian roulette is not "safe" neither is skydiving.
I am really done here....someone else take it.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
elfanie 0
Quotehey btw.. i'd just like to add that she's talking about how there's millions of jumps, but what i dont think she understands is that most of those jumps are tandems.
*nods* this is true..
and I actually did look at that...
the breakdown between how many deaths were tandems, how many were students, how many were
experts, etc.
Here's older information, but still interesting. It's from the early 90's..
QuoteGlobal research on safety in parachuting 1991. Replies from 35 countries of 62 were received. 26 had exact counts, nine had only estimated numbers.
Total of 245 162 jumpers made 4 848 025 jumps. 74 died, which makes 1 fatality per 65 513 jumps. Preliminary research gives ratio of 1:64 091 for year 1992.
Experienced jumpers (over 250 jumps), who cover 24% of all jumpers, made half of all jumps, but were involved only in 35% of accidents. Students cover 48% of all jumpers, but they made only 17% of jumps, and were involved in 38% of accidents.
Human error was cause of 92% of fatalities. Approximately 75% of victims would have been saved with AAD. RSL/Stevens system might have saved 35%. If all jumpers would had used both AAD and RSL, amount of victims might had decreased from 74 to 20.
In 75% of accidents reserve hasn't been used at all or it had been used too low.
I'd love to see something more current...does anyone have anything more current?
--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings
Jimbo 0
Brought over from the other thread...
Better yet, look at the time actually exposed to the sport, actually skydiving.
If someone goes in with 600 jumps, that means he was skydiving for what, 10 hours? And had what, a total of 50 hours under canopy?* Compare that to other activities.
Sorry Elfanie, the stats don't work in your favor.
* Based on 60 seconds per skydive and 5 minutes per canopy ride. I think both are generous estimates.
-
Jim
QuoteLook at it as a death per perticipent ratio. 30:30000 is about the current ratio for experienced jumpers. One out of every 1000 active jumpers in the US will die next year.
Better yet, look at the time actually exposed to the sport, actually skydiving.
If someone goes in with 600 jumps, that means he was skydiving for what, 10 hours? And had what, a total of 50 hours under canopy?* Compare that to other activities.
Sorry Elfanie, the stats don't work in your favor.
* Based on 60 seconds per skydive and 5 minutes per canopy ride. I think both are generous estimates.
-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
RoadRash 0
First off, I want to say that I read the previous thread...so I know where this stemmed from...however, skydiving isn't safe, but with proper training, we as skydivers take a "calculated risk" everytime we exit the door. As far as I am concerned, even one death per year or per so-many jumps, or whatever is too many, and just because the number of accidents (I'm referring to injuries) is low(considering that USPA is still trying to encourage DZs to send in accident reports), YOU ARE JUMPING OUT OF A PLANE THAT IS GOING OVER 100 MPH!!! When I first began to jump, I was under the false impression that skydiving was safe and can understand where you are coming from, but whenever I started visiting other DZs and speaking with people who have 10 or 20 years experience and thousands of jumps, the number of things that can go wrong are limitless. I believe that I am a safe skydiver, but you can only increase your knowledge by experience AND most important, listening and learning from experienced skydivers!...Just please be safe...I have been lucky so far...(knocks on wood) I have had one injury that has put me in the hospital, but don't know of anyone that I have known personally who has died skydiving...Be safe, be aware, and triple check everything...
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...
Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...
mr2mk1g 10
Your problem is you are working with a misnomer. You are saying you think skydiving is "safe". What I think you actually mean is that you "feel safe". These are very different. I would not seek to argue with you feeling safe. That is a subjective thing and only you can know it.
The actual word "safe" is not so subjective. Ron already posted the definition. Id like to point out the relative part on which id rely:
2 Free from danger or injury; unhurt: safe and sound
You have already said you acknowledge that skydiving is not "free from danger". You must therefore agree that skydiving, being an activity that is not "free from danger" cannot be compatable with the proper definition of "safe".
The actual word "safe" is not so subjective. Ron already posted the definition. Id like to point out the relative part on which id rely:
2 Free from danger or injury; unhurt: safe and sound
You have already said you acknowledge that skydiving is not "free from danger". You must therefore agree that skydiving, being an activity that is not "free from danger" cannot be compatable with the proper definition of "safe".
billvon 2,400
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>Experience in the sport doesn't change the risk factors of the
>sport...
That's an odd thing to say, as one of the primary risk factors for new canopy pilots is performing a low turn they do not have the skills to recover from. Experience removes (or at least greatly reduces) that risk factor. Of course, some people use that new experience to pull off ever more dangerous landings/approaches, so _their_ skydiving does not become safer. But that's a choice newer jumpers cannot make, since they simply do not yet have the skill.
>If you give me information that I don't have and it changed my
>opinion so that I no longer feel it's safe enough...
Well, I think that's the key. Skydiving is not safe - but for most of us, it is safe _enough._ You're a mother; there is a small chance that skydiving will injure you or kill you and leave your kids motherless. I know you understand that - for you, that chance is small enough that you are willing to risk it. It's a decision we all make, consciously or not.
>sport...
That's an odd thing to say, as one of the primary risk factors for new canopy pilots is performing a low turn they do not have the skills to recover from. Experience removes (or at least greatly reduces) that risk factor. Of course, some people use that new experience to pull off ever more dangerous landings/approaches, so _their_ skydiving does not become safer. But that's a choice newer jumpers cannot make, since they simply do not yet have the skill.
>If you give me information that I don't have and it changed my
>opinion so that I no longer feel it's safe enough...
Well, I think that's the key. Skydiving is not safe - but for most of us, it is safe _enough._ You're a mother; there is a small chance that skydiving will injure you or kill you and leave your kids motherless. I know you understand that - for you, that chance is small enough that you are willing to risk it. It's a decision we all make, consciously or not.
benny 0
Skydiving is dangerous....
So is eating, I almost choked on a piece of chicken once (no, not choking my chicken)
So is driving
So is sex
Yada yada yada, whatever you do can and will kill you if you do it enough or in the wrong way... Ron tells elfanie that skydiving's not safe and he's right, but he seems to have convinced himself that some metal will save him if he or someone else screws up on the racetrack. He's wrong.
Plan like you'll live forever, live like you'll die tomorrow.
Never go to a DZ strip show.
So is eating, I almost choked on a piece of chicken once (no, not choking my chicken)
So is driving
So is sex
Yada yada yada, whatever you do can and will kill you if you do it enough or in the wrong way... Ron tells elfanie that skydiving's not safe and he's right, but he seems to have convinced himself that some metal will save him if he or someone else screws up on the racetrack. He's wrong.
Plan like you'll live forever, live like you'll die tomorrow.
Never go to a DZ strip show.
skybytch 259
QuoteExperience in the sport doesn't change the risk factors of the sport...
Sorry, but I call bullshit. Without figuring in additional risk factors like high performance landings, canopy and discipline choices, currency, etc... someone with 10000 jumps is far less likely to die skydiving than I am with 1000 jumps. Why? Because in their 10000 jumps they've seen and experienced a lot more bad stuff than I have, and they more than likely know how to avoid bad stuff or at least reduce the severity of the bad stuff.
Eh, I'm done with this one. You (and anyone else who thinks/asserts that skydiving is safe) will either listen or you won't. Like I said in the other thread, let's have this discussion in 9 1/2 years... if you're still jumping then.
Does the term "Cypres generation" mean anything to anyone?
elfanie 0
Quote>Experience in the sport doesn't change the risk factors of the
>sport...
That's an odd thing to say, as one of the primary risk factors for new canopy pilots is performing a low turn they do not have the skills to recover from.
I knew it sounded that way when I wrote it...which is why originally (in the other thread, I think) I clarified...
Individual experience and training of course will change individual risk factors in the sport...absolutely.
What I meant (and clarified there but should have repeated here) is that what I do or do not have personal experience with doesn't change the overall risk of the sport of skydiving.
I can keep my wingloading under 1:1, have taken 3 different canopy control courses, never swoop, fly extremely conservative and reduce my risk at absolutely every turn..
but the statistical risk of skydiving is there regardless....
Quote
>If you give me information that I don't have and it changed my
>opinion so that I no longer feel it's safe enough...
Well, I think that's the key. Skydiving is not safe - but for most of us, it is safe _enough._ You're a mother; there is a small chance that skydiving will injure you or kill you and leave your kids motherless. I know you understand that - for you, that chance is small enough that you are willing to risk it. It's a decision we all make, consciously or not.
*nods* Which is why I have been using "safe" to be synonymous with "safe enough"..
because otherwise, nothing in life is 'safe'. It's either 'safe enough'...or it's not.
I have NEVER EVER said that skydiving is without risk..NEVER! In fact, I've said in the past that you should have a healthy fear of what can go wrong..just like you should throughout life!
But most people use "safe" to mean "a safety level that I find acceptable"...and that's how I've been using the term...
and I do everything I can to reduce the risks. (everything I know how to do)
--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings
Ron 7
QuoteRon tells elfanie that skydiving's not safe and he's right, but he seems to have convinced himself that some metal will save him if he or someone else screws up on the racetrack. He's wrong.
Where in the hell did you get that idea?
I never said racing was safe.
BTW its not the metal that will "Save me" its a whole bunch of stuff that MIGHT save me. But I never said it would anyway. I said.
QuoteBut I have done 120 on a race track....It was not unsafe.
There is a difference between safe and unsafe.
Driving a race car is not safe...But it is also not UNsafe..It does have a higher risk than say jacking off in the bathroom, but it is not UNsafe.
And you said in another thread that you thought you were smarter than Bush?????
I bet he knows the difference between safe and unsafe.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Jimbo 0
QuoteBut most people use "safe" to mean "a safety level that I find acceptable"...and that's how I've been using the term...
Then I suggest that in the future you make yourself very clear and say that it's "a safety level that I find acceptable". Words are all we have to communicate around here, they're the only tool we have to get our message out. You'll find that if you're clear in your message that fewer people will have the opportunity to misunderstand, or misinterpret it.
-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Scrumpot 1
QuoteI don't have to actually pick up that gun and play russian roulette to know that I have a 1 in 6 chance of blowing my head off. Playing russian roulette doesn't change the risk factor...
Not a good analogy. Skydiving is not like russian roulette, where you have FIXED CHANCES (1-in-6 as you say, ...for a six-shooter that is!
) of occurance, each and every time you participate; and you are right, experience in participation does NOT affect your per-participation statistics. However, again skydiving is NOT Russian Roulette!! Experience, training, relative exposure and currency, even including intangible considerations like personal mindset, can indeed all have an affect statistically on the outcome of each and every jump you make. Comparing skydiving to russian roulette, I find personally, offensive and not condusive at all to you making the point I think it is you are trying to make.
Either try another analogy, or try another sport. The only way to be absolutely 100% assured that you will not either die or be injured in participating, is to NOT PARTICIPATE! If that is what you are trying to say tieing and comparing skydiving to russian roulette as your true perception here, you need to then hang up (not pick up as you say) not only that six-shooter, but the rig as well. You are conceding yourself up to your own eventual (statistical) doom by this argument otherwise, are you not?
Why bother reading anything (fatality/incident reports etc.) at all then? They really don't matter (based upon this argument).
Skydiving is not "safe". Crossing the street is not "safe". But steps can be taken to manage the risks, and the risks can indeed be mitigated, so long as they are at least first RECOGNIZED, accepted (granted), and then MANAGED. Not to do so would be irresponsible. I think that is what Ron is trying to say to you here.
Blue Skies,
-Grant
coitus non circum - Moab Stone
benny 0
Quote
I bet he knows the difference between safe and unsafe.
Man, you take things way too seriously.
Grammar check:
"un" when added to the beginning of a word means "not"... like unnoticed, or not noticed, not "the opposite of noticed".
unsafe, being "not safe"
and by the way, I claimed to be more educated than Bush, not smarter than him. And that, technically when it comes to degree status, I was wrong about. A slip of the tongue or keyboard as it were. Now as for being smarter, or more intelligent than him, yeah, I am. At least if those reports about his SAT scores were on the money or if knowledge of the english language has anything to do with intelligence.
Ok, so to get back on topic...
skydiving = unsafe (or not safe)
cars = unsafe at any speed
Never go to a DZ strip show.
Ron 7
Quotecars = unsafe at any speed
Good god.
You really don't get it do you?
Both are not SAFE...But that does not make them UNSAFE.
Bicker with someone else...I not dealing with you anymore.
QuoteNow as for being smarter, or more intelligent than him, yeah, I am. At least if those reports about his SAT scores were on the money or if knowledge of the english language has anything to do with intelligence
Put that ego in check home boy
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Can't we all just get along?!?!
I'm so funny I crack my head open!
P.M.S. #102
P.M.S. #102
benny 0
no kidding, I know now that for me anyway, skydiving with ron would be UNsafe, as I believe he'd try to kill me.
Never go to a DZ strip show.
Never go to a DZ strip show.
skybytch 259
Rule #1. No personal attacks. This goes for everyone.
And - PLEASE - keep the "noise" posts to Talkback where they belongs... they do NOT belong in the topical forums.
Definition - a "noise" post is one that adds nothing to the conversation, ie Chinese food in a thread discussing safety...
And - PLEASE - keep the "noise" posts to Talkback where they belongs... they do NOT belong in the topical forums.
Definition - a "noise" post is one that adds nothing to the conversation, ie Chinese food in a thread discussing safety...
winsor 186
QuoteI'm creating a new thread so that it doesn't interfere with the low-turns thread that this was started in...
I only have 33 jumps in the sport thus far.
Of coruse no instructor ratings.
Skydiving can be characterized as committing suicide - but changing your mind at the last moment. If you either fail to intervene, or the lifesaving procedures themselves fail, you are dead as a doornail.
What part of flinging yourself bodily at the Earth from a couple of miles up strikes you as "safe?" The fact that you have some very expensive nylon on hand, replete with the latest automation?
Playing with cobras may seem safe if they haven't seen fit to bite you yet. To blithely assume that the antivenin you have on hand affords you impunity in the event they do is dangerously naive.
Denial isn't a river in Egypt. If you have to lie to yourself that skydiving isn't dangerous in order to participate, you would be well advised to take up another hobby. When you are given irrefutable evidence that a rethink is in order, it is usually in a particularly nasty fashion.
In this sport, safety is never more than a "so far, so good" kind of thing.
1) You have to bat a thousand.
2) Nobody bats a thousand.
Blue skies, black death,
Winsor
Is skydiving safe? No, you can do everything right and still die. (Did anyone mention that?)
Can someone guarantee your safety? No
The most relevant question. Can you mitigate the dangers? Yes. I believe that this is the point of your post and a most valuable question.
Here is how. Learn. Look at the potential problems and learn to deal with them. I am not just talking malfunctions. Look at the incident reports, read the cause, try not to do those things.
Half the fatalities every year are turns done too low. Don't do that. A safe skydive, a good canopy, and whack.
Learn what landing conditions can hurt you and how to deal with them. Burbles, rotors, off-landings, trees, obstacles. Learn how to drive your canopy for emergencies.
Ron mentioned that a fatality happens every year at WFFC. True. I was there one year and there was 5.
Yes, I have seen people die through no fault of their own. Freefall collisions, canopy collisions. People who were doing nothing wrong.
Almost everyone on this forum, with 2 years in sport, knows someone who has died. That is a painful thought.
Be the safest skydiver that you can be. Not "kind of" safe. That helps.
Can someone guarantee your safety? No
The most relevant question. Can you mitigate the dangers? Yes. I believe that this is the point of your post and a most valuable question.
Here is how. Learn. Look at the potential problems and learn to deal with them. I am not just talking malfunctions. Look at the incident reports, read the cause, try not to do those things.
Half the fatalities every year are turns done too low. Don't do that. A safe skydive, a good canopy, and whack.
Learn what landing conditions can hurt you and how to deal with them. Burbles, rotors, off-landings, trees, obstacles. Learn how to drive your canopy for emergencies.
Ron mentioned that a fatality happens every year at WFFC. True. I was there one year and there was 5.
Yes, I have seen people die through no fault of their own. Freefall collisions, canopy collisions. People who were doing nothing wrong.
Almost everyone on this forum, with 2 years in sport, knows someone who has died. That is a painful thought.
Be the safest skydiver that you can be. Not "kind of" safe. That helps.
billvon 2,400
Would you both cut it out! Benny, sometimes it's worthwhile just listening to what someone else has to say, especially someone with a lot more experience than you have. Trying to "win" the argument isn't always a good thing to attempt, and trying to do so can make it hard to hear.
And Ron -
>Bicker with someone else...I not dealing with you anymore.
That would be good advice to heed.
And Ron -
>Bicker with someone else...I not dealing with you anymore.
That would be good advice to heed.
I would like to call everyone's attention to an issue that might have contributed to some arguments:
Obviuosly, it has to do with statistics and, even more, with epidemiology.
Generally, risks we calculate by looking at what happens in a group of people is informative on what happens in the GROUP and should not be directly applied to any given individual, except when ALL the individuals are/behave the same regarding the event we are "studying".
Beware also of not using "danger/dangerous" as equivalent to "risk/risky". the first is a matter of yes or no, the second -being probability- is measured between 0 and 1.
It is like when we talk about averages. The average income for the mebers of your club is informative about the group, it is probable that no one earns that amount.
As in other health issues we need to identify factors (mainly behaviors if talking about skydiving or acquiring HIV/AIDS) associated with a higher risk of injury or death or infection.
As someone already said, the russian roulette is not applicable for the case... Note that the 1/6 chance holds true for EACH time (if you play it right).
As it is obvious, not all skydivers are/behave the same, and neither every jump is done the same way. Some practice more risky behaviors than others, and most risky behaviors will be risky for any skydiver e.g. pulling low, providing poor maintenace to equipment, not using a hard helmet, doing low hook turns.
The level of risk of injury may vary also for different sub-groups. It has been noted that a low turn is more risky if performed by a novice than if performed by an expert, but is more risky than a flat landing for everyone. Another example: It is fair to say that unprotected casual sex is risky for everyone... but the magnitude of the risk is higher if you are having it in a prison in Russia than if in other settings.
Sorry for writing so much...
Obviuosly, it has to do with statistics and, even more, with epidemiology.
Generally, risks we calculate by looking at what happens in a group of people is informative on what happens in the GROUP and should not be directly applied to any given individual, except when ALL the individuals are/behave the same regarding the event we are "studying".
Beware also of not using "danger/dangerous" as equivalent to "risk/risky". the first is a matter of yes or no, the second -being probability- is measured between 0 and 1.
It is like when we talk about averages. The average income for the mebers of your club is informative about the group, it is probable that no one earns that amount.
As in other health issues we need to identify factors (mainly behaviors if talking about skydiving or acquiring HIV/AIDS) associated with a higher risk of injury or death or infection.
As someone already said, the russian roulette is not applicable for the case... Note that the 1/6 chance holds true for EACH time (if you play it right).
As it is obvious, not all skydivers are/behave the same, and neither every jump is done the same way. Some practice more risky behaviors than others, and most risky behaviors will be risky for any skydiver e.g. pulling low, providing poor maintenace to equipment, not using a hard helmet, doing low hook turns.
The level of risk of injury may vary also for different sub-groups. It has been noted that a low turn is more risky if performed by a novice than if performed by an expert, but is more risky than a flat landing for everyone. Another example: It is fair to say that unprotected casual sex is risky for everyone... but the magnitude of the risk is higher if you are having it in a prison in Russia than if in other settings.
Sorry for writing so much...
elfanie 0
Quote
As someone already said, the russian roulette is not applicable for the case... Note that the 1/6 chance holds true for EACH time (if you play it right).
First let me say that I loved this entire message.
but I wanted to respond specifically to the russian roulette comment...as well as to the person who said they were offended at the analogy...
if you re-read what I wrote...I never compared the risk of skydiving to the risk of russian roulette. What I did say is that I don't have to PLAY russian roulette to know that you have a 1 in 6 chances of blowing your head off...
likewise...I don't have to engage in some of the other aspects of skydiving like swooping and CReW and BASE to evaluate the risks of those activities and feel that they are not safe (in my definition) for me to engage in.
(Ron had insinuated that I'd only be able to say that something was safe or unsafe if I was only an active participant...my point wasn't that skydiving is akin to playing russian roulette. My point is that you don't have to actually DO something to evaluate the risks involved and have an opinion as to whether it's safe enough for you to want to do it or not.)
I was definately not comparing the risks of skydiving with the risks of russian roulette.
--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings
Thing no one has mentioned. Skydiving is an emergency procedure! Some people way back when just happened to think it would be cool to make emergency exits from airplanes on a regular basis. I don't know about anyone else but the term emergency doesn't relate to safe in any way shape or form to me.
Sucks it will be another week before I get to perfom another emergency procedure
MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.
Sucks it will be another week before I get to perfom another emergency procedure
MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.
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