performing backloops

[chuteless 1]

I have a question for AFF instructors.

Why so much emphasis is being put on a student to perform backloops. A backloop is never used for anything except a fun manoeuver or style in competition.
If a person doesnt plan on taking part in style competition, why not concentrate on them falling stable AND holding a heading rather than doing backloops as part of their test, which is really of little use to them

I can understand getting someone to learn how to correct an unstable diving exit, because that is important, but I believe there is far too much unnecessary emphasis put on meaningless backloops.

Is the insistence on doing backloops a means of getting students to pay the big bucks for a longer period of time until they accomplish this meaningless manoeuver?


Bill Cole D-41

[Ncrowe 0]

I'm not totally sure , I get to try them for the first time tomorrow if the weathers nice. But I think the emphasis is more on having the student become unstable and regain stability than doing the actual backloop. And from what I understand most instructors dont really care if you perfect backloops they just want to make sure you can regain stability before moving on to the next level of AFF.

"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

[PhreeZone 15]

Backflips are used to demonstrate the ability to recover from an unstable position in freefall. Getting funneled or with anything that can happen you might find your self on your back in freefall and its important to know how to get out of it. The student does'nt need to proform a perfect backflip, they need to demonstrate the ability to get unstable then regain stability.

I've seen video of students do a back flip then start a spin that they can't get out of with out help. Guess what? That what the level is there to show, if there is any issues like that still below the surface of the jumper.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[samyueru 0]

Yea, definitely so you can know what it's like to be upside down and be able to deal with it. During my progression, at the beginning, I got upside down and it took a few seconds to get back up - which was def. a little scary. (this was before I was on to backloops) Needless to say, I learned how to do a quick barrel roll that jump.

Plus, besides just the instability thing, it's another thing to get you used to skydiving, I'd guess. The more comfortable you are in the air, the less nervous, and more safe.

[towerrat 0]

I AM NOT AN AFF INSTRUCTOR
that being said, the purpose of both backloops and frontloops is to get the students unstable, thereby forcing them to become stable again. it teaches them to relax and arch after an unstable situation. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[chuteless 1]

I can see getting to recover from an unstable position, but coming out of a backloop doesnt necessarily mean they will be unstable. If a person comes out of a backloop right, they are perfectly stable....so what are they going to recover from???

I sure would like to hear what an instructor tells a student as to "HOW TO GO INTO A BACKLOOP"...and that might say a lot as to why they arent doing it right.

Sounds like a reason to keep the student on the hook to me.

[USPA 0]

Not being a AFF instructor, but I am an instructor. The answer has been given multiple times. The answer is two fold:
1) They have to show ability to regain from unstability. A backloop is per definition unstabel.

Note: A student backloop looks ALOT different from a "style" backloop

2) being out of the belly-to-earth position is very frighting for some students, they need to experience this while they are under direct supervision of an instructor. Even the student has a problem with it, the instructor can deal with it.

Reasons for faling a backloop exercise:
-Not going completly unstable
-Not finising a backloop (180 degree's and doing barrel roll) (they have to had the sence of going "through" it.
-Not regaining stability (by themselves/ quick enough)

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[skybytch 259]

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If a person comes out of a backloop right, they are perfectly stable

Big if. My first backloop ended with me on my side. My second one (on the same jump) was much better.

I've talked to quite a few students who said their first backloops didn't end correctly either; they had to get back to belly to earth.

[chuteless 1]

Sorry...but I believe that if you teach stability....and I mean stability through every freefall, you will soon have that feeling down so good, so intense, you will automatuically know how to recover from ANYTHING close to being unstable.

Once you live freefall, you live stable freefall...and if you should flip or toss for ANY reason, you will go right back to where you've lived....with stability.

Making a student concentrate on loops, is a waste of time..They should be learning STABILITY so mich so, they will find it blindfolded (and Ive done that too)

Bill Cole D-41

[USPA 0]

With all repect to you're impressive license number (I must have been liquid when you got your D license) I think you have lost touch with students on this one. My scariest students are the ones that are perfectly stable from jump 1. They are naturals and know how to stay stable and relaxed. But when the do backloops and experience instability they freak! Besides you cannot learn stability without knowing instability. Just the same as you don't know what hate is unless you have truely loved some1, but now I am going philosophic...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[indyz 1]

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Once you live freefall, you live stable freefall...and if you should flip or toss for ANY reason, you will go right back to where you've lived....with stability.

I think that most people will maintain that it's better to have the student prove that he can recover from instability while the instructor is within arms reach, than it is to assume that since the student can fly stable she can also recover from instability.

[pilotdave 0]

I think the emphasis on PROPER backloops varies a lot from dropzone to dropzone. I know where I did AFF, the idea was to get unstable and then get stable again. It also generally teaches more body control... sort of like unusual attitude recovery in planes, which all pilots go through.

But I've also met people that failed an AFF level because they didn't properly complete the backloop but got upside and and "fell off" to the side. I think that's ridiculous. If they started stable, went upside down, and ended up stable again, that should be good enough.

Dave

[skybytch 259]

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But I've also met people that failed an AFF level because they didn't properly complete the backloop but got upside and and "fell off" to the side. I think that's ridiculous.

I can see that if they didn't have time left to do another one after getting belly to earth from the first one.

I had enough time to do a bad one and a good one when I did them... and we jumped from 10,500.

[yoink 321]

as well as the safety issue.. I would think that it is important for the student to know that if they do go unstable for any reason, then they know that they can recover it - looking at the sky for the time when you're meant to be belly to earth can be a little disturbing...

[Nightingale 0]

you just described me.

I never had instability issues in AFF. If my instructors hadn't made me do barrel rolls and backloops and unstable exits, I wouldn't have learned what instability felt like, and if it'd happened on one of my solos, I'd have freaked. At least this way, instability was planned and I knew to expect it and deal with it. I knew what it felt like and how to deal with it, it made it easier to deal with it when it popped up unexpectedly.

That's my personal experience as a student. Dunno about anyone else.

Edit: I was told before my backloop jump that the point was to see if I could recover from an unstable situation, not to complete a perfect backloop, so if I fouled up the backloop, that was ok, so long as I got unstable and kinda upside down, and then stable again.

[Tink1717 2]

The point of back loops and front loops is to teach how to enter and recover from an induced instability. It is also to get the student to have a little fun out there. For me it was the most fun I had as a student.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[samhussey 0]

When I did backloops during AFF I screwed them up bad. Got on to my back and just kind of rolled about a bit like a tortoise stuck on its back. I still passed the level though, as I'd gone unstable and recovered just as I'd been told. I've only ever completed one backloop proplerly.

[Ron 7]

Bill..

It is to teach them to regain stability.
I personally can't think of a better way to make them learn that they can get stable after a funnel or flip.

As for the blindfold thing...I like it...But there is no way you caould make that a part of the program. I have students do this in the tunnel and it really freaks them out. Freaks me out as well to be honest.

Can you think of a better way to make a student unstable and make them regain it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Becca 0]

I am an AFF instructor and to me there is nothing meaningless about the "Backloop" skydive. We have students do back loops for 2 reasons (At least I do) 1st is to see them recover from an unstable body position, so I don't care how well they backloop, I care how quickly the regain stability. But for me the biggest reason is CONFIDENCE. We teach Aff students from day one to ARCH, ARCH, ARCH. We drill it into them from exit to pull you must ARCH, they wind up thinking anything other than a stable arch and OMG they will die. So by the time we get them to the Backloop level they have learned the basics of stable flight, fwd mvmt, turns. We can't leave them with just that knowledge and say you go figure out the rest, we have to show them that they can have a f-uped body position whether it comes from a bad exit, a funnell, or even just for fun, and they have the skills to get stable. Being unstable doesn't mean OMG, I'm gonna die. When I release that student to Self Jumpmaster, I want them to know how to handle different body positions in freefall. Just took a student yesterday on a backloop dive (Level 6) when we got down his confidence was through the roof (in a good way) We went back up and did level 7. the graduation dive which has more unstable drills, sure enough on his diving exit he went flat on his back and just like the textbooks say he rolled over perfectly with a big smile on face, no freakin out for him cause we taught him already it is ok to be unstable just recover from it. So that is why we teach Back loops, oh also because they are fun, guess what most AFF students do on there 1st solo? At least when they bring me their newly filled out log book for a signature it says, diving exit and then x number of Back loops, normally finished off with a WA HOO!

Becca Garrison
AFF I

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Bill..

It is to teach them to regain stability.
I personally can't think of a better way to make them learn that they can get stable after a funnel or flip.

As for the blindfold thing...I like it...But there is no way you caould make that a part of the program. I have students do this in the tunnel and it really freaks them out. Freaks me out as well to be honest.

Can you think of a better way to make a student unstable and make them regain it?

Maybe "unstable" is the wrong word. By doing back flips and front flips the student learns to recover from "unusual" attitudes. Pilots are trained this way.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 7]

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Maybe "unstable" is the wrong word

I have only seen one student do a good backflip...I was shocked.

But you are right it is done to teach them how to recover from unusual attitudes.

During my FFA check ride, my examiner rolled the plane upside down while I was under foggles and gave it to me. Not legal, but it was fun.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Andrewwhyte 1]

A backloop is not unstable. It is rotation upon an axis. Barrel rolls and 90 degree turns are other examples.
I agree with Bill, the backloop is a recreational move that is (or should be) outside the basic survival skill set for AFF. Teaching backloops is an excellent task for aspiring coaches.
In the CSPA system the backloop was dropped from the mandatory PFF skills a few years ago. The unstable exit task was replaced with the sit exit.

[cruzit 0]

While I have to agree a backloop is not inherently unstable, most student backloops are less than perfect and are usually somewhat unstable. Very few AFF students perform perfectly on this level.

I think you are missing the point of the why a backloop is important. The backloop is designed, as was said before, to demonstrate to a student you can fix your body position, even if you are upside down and tumbling. That way, when the student does perform a deliberately unstable exit, he/she will have been upside down and tumbling in a more controlled situation, i.e., backloops, and have the knowledge and experience to right themselves.

[chuteless 1]

Mike: I am certainly not suggesting that anyone (especially students) do a blindfold jump. I was simply pointing out that even without a reference point or a horizon, one can automatically find stability, once it has been ingrained into one's mind.

Once it is learned, it becomes a reaction that you do without even thinking..like a cat landing on all fours when dropped.

Learn it, and you'll never have to worry about becoming unstable again.

Bill Cole D-41

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I think you are missing the point of the why a backloop is important.

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I am not missing the point, I am merely disagreeing with it. If you think the student needs to be unstable while you are there, then tell them to leave unstable. That's when most people are going to find themselves unstable.

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