winsor 187 #26 March 17, 2004 Mullins' and Nelson's kids both started that early IIRC. QuoteSolo???? with little or no training??? Nope, they were extensively trained, went through a rigorous progression - and could fly circles around most of their adult counterparts before they hit puberty. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #27 March 17, 2004 QuoteI watched a 5 year old fly in the tunnel last week. She loved it. That's great. But the tunnel, and exiting an aircraft instead from (insert any altitude here) are 2 very distinctly different things, and can not be even REMOTELY compared in this context to the other! QuoteOnly the parents can know for sure which one their child is. And I submit that quite to the contrary that even they can not! My son is 14 years old, and has basically grown up around the DZ, has flown in the plane ..heck even FLOWN THE PLANE (at alt.), is extremely "heads up" and NO FOOL. He also WANTS to skydive. Once he has reached the legal age of independent consent, that will then be his choice. Up until then though even "allowing" anything else would be downright negligently irresponsible ...all due respect to Michael & Joel Mullins notwithstanding. "Heads-up" or not, responsible parental obligation in this regard DICTATES just that ...RESPONSIBILITY. No one NEEDS to skydive. When he gets old enough to appropriately make his choices then of course, he can. Until then, ...the skies will wait. QuoteSome 13 year olds are very heads up, some are fools. Only the parents can know for sure which one their child is. And I'm sure right up until this incident, the parents of this victim also no doubt felt their son was too (very "heads-up"). Otherwise, why or how would they have allowed him to do this in the 1st place? Again, I submit that there is absolutely NO WAY to 100% assuredly tell. And until that CHILD reaches his/her own age of individual consent, it is wholly irresponsible to expose them to risks that are clearly beyond their MINOR status capabilities to themselves fully grasp.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #28 March 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteIf you are with your Mom and/or Dad and they are doing the training, I have no problem with the kid doing jumps. Who knows, you might just be grooming the next world champion. A MINOR has no capacity (under the law or otherwise) to fully cognizantly, and rationally make those decisions. Nor should ANY reasonably responsible adult (parent or not) have the audacity, nor do they truely have the capacity to simply waiver that away either. Trading that off for the sole benefit of potentially head-start "grooming the next workd champion"?? ...TOTALLY NEGLIGENT, and not reasonable by any stretch, IMHO. modern sensibilities 'protect' children from the realities of life, often leading to adults who are simply larger children with no real understanding of the world either.. wasnt that long ago that a 13 year old was considered the 'man' of the house and expected to defend, go off to war, and work to support the family you may chose to keep your kids in helmets and leashes all their life till they are no longer your legal responsibility, however dont expect everyone else to adopt the same shortsighted attitude about how to raise theirs.. i guess everyone skips page III of the SIM too?? Quotethe recommendations contained herein, unless otherwise stated (such as compliance with a FAR), are put forth as guidance and are not mandatory. Moreover, a deviation from these recommendations does not imply negligence.... You may decide that you or your children are not ready for certain aspects and risks in life, however that does not make it true for anyone but you and yours. If you wouldnt want anyone else telling you what activities your family can participate in (no matter how reasonable or unreasonable they might seem to you) then you shouldn’t be condemning someone else for exercising the same rights. a child drowns on a rafting trip? 10 years old is too young to be rafting!!! a child breaks both legs snowboarding? he shouldn’t have been on the slopes!! a child falls off his bike and get a concussion? helmets should be mandatory!!! falls off the swing and breaks an arm? swings are dangerous!! they should be removed!! etc ad infinuim.... everyone is so ready to scream "that shouldn’t be allowed!!!" that soon enough no child will be legally allowed out of bed without full helmets and padded suits to keep the real world at bay... the lack of swings and merry-go rounds on many 'modern' playgrounds is the direct result of this ignorant, invasive attitude in American culture. So much for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…happiness might be dangerous…cant have that…____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #29 March 17, 2004 I dropped my son on his first static line when he was 12 yrs old. He made three jumps, and then didnt want to continue. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #30 March 17, 2004 I was certainly mentally capable of skydiving at 13, but I had to wait till I was over 16 because those were the rules which my dad chose to enforce as a DZO/competitor. I could fly a C-182 when I was six and got my first motorcycle (well, minibike) at six. I was licensed to drive a motorcycle on the street (legally) at age 14 in the state of Alabama. There are/were other states that had similar laws. In the end, I feel it's all dependent on what a child is exposed to growing up. Some children lead very-sheltered lives, others do not. A child raised in the country who is expected to bush-hog/plow/cultivate fields as soon as he is tall enough to reach the pedals on the tractor, and who can drive the one-ton farm truck as soon as he can see over the dash, is a far likelier candidate for early training. Some prep-shool kid living in Manhattan probably isn't. Hell, I don't think you can get a license to drive in NY until you are 18, can you? I would absolutely train a son or daughter of mine once they reached what I belive to be the base-level of maturity needed to safely accomplish the tasks. That said, I have seen some childish behavior from at least one of these young skydiving prodigies. Mike flew his Helio Stallion to a boogie at one of the DZ's in Alabama that would not allow Charlie to jump, so Charlie walked around kicking dirt and stomping his feet. He ultimately found some sand and played with his Tonka toys until the end of the day; I think he was 12. That illustrated that no amount of proficiency in the air changed the fact that he was a child. I did not doubt that he had the presence of mind to participate in skydiving, but I was a bit pissed that me and most of my contemporaries were forced to wait till we were 16 (USPA guidelines) before we started. Jealousy? Maybe, but who cares; the gear was so damn big when I was 13 that I could not have worn it safely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #31 March 17, 2004 I have been happily skydiving since 16, now I have almost 800 jumps (in almost 7 years). Why were by jumps before i got 18 irresponsible? In fact If I was allowed to jump even before 16, why would that be anymore dangerous? Age is just a number.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #32 March 17, 2004 >But the tunnel, and exiting an aircraft instead from (insert any > altitude here) are 2 very distinctly different things, and can not be > even REMOTELY compared in this context to the other! Didn't say they were the same, just that children do indeed like freefall. (Scott was amazed any 13 year old would even want to skydive.) >And I submit that quite to the contrary that even they can not! My >son is 14 years old, and has basically grown up around the DZ, has > flown in the plane ..heck even FLOWN THE PLANE (at alt.) So it's OK for your son to risk both his life and the life of everyone in the plane by flying it, but it's not OK for him to risk only his own life skydiving? An odd double standard there. >He also WANTS to skydive. Once he has reached the legal age of > independent consent, that will then be his choice. I agree there, and I also agree that you have every right to decide that he can't do it until then. >"Heads-up" or not, responsible parental obligation in this regard > DICTATES just that ...RESPONSIBILITY. No one NEEDS to skydive. No one needs to fly in a GA airplane, and definitely no one needs to FLY a GA airplane. But if you think your child can accept the risk, and is competent enough to do so, no problem. > Again, I submit that there is absolutely NO WAY to 100% assuredly > tell. And until that CHILD reaches his/her own age of individual > consent, it is wholly irresponsible to expose them to risks that are > clearly beyond their MINOR status capabilities to themselves fully > grasp. The idea that a child who is 15 is totally incapable of accepting risks, but a child who is a day older is 100% capable of recognizing and accepting risks, is nonsense. You don't know other people's children. I would not presume to call you an irresponsible, negligent parent because you put your child behind the controls of a plane and risked the death of everyone on that airplane - because you know your son will not do dangerous things in the cockpit (like, say, pushing on the yoke, pulling two negative G's and breaking people's necks.) Please extend others the courtesy that they know their children at least as well as you know yours, and have the option to risk their lives as you risked your son's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bubble 0 #33 March 17, 2004 I made my first jump when I was 12, as someone has already pointed out it is illegal to jump under 16 in the UK but my father took me to France so that I could do a Tandem. I have been at airfields since I was 6 and by the age of 12 I had already lost a dear friend through the sport and seen two friends have a very nasty accident. Even though I'd seen these things, I knew that skydiving was something I would take up when I was legally old enough too. I loved my Tandem and would've done another one if my Dad had paid for it, I knew what I was getting myself into and I had been hassling my dad for some 3-4 years before then. The only downside to doing it so young was that I do not remember it that much now, all I have is the photos (no vid available then). I started my S/L course the day before my 16th and did my first jump on my 16th b'day. I have not looked back since. I think that it really depends on the situation and the parents, I understand the concern of letting so called minors jump out of a plane, but I think it very much depends on the child and the reasons for why they want to do it. My dad would not let me until I was 12 at the time I couldn't understand but I do now, I wasn't ready to fully apreciate what I was about to do until then. If I could've done a course (AFF or S/L) I would've done unfortunately it would not have been realistic to keep traveling to France everytime I wanted to jump, so I had to sit it out for another 4 years before I could make my next jump. Being around the dropzone so much as a kid really helped me when I did my course, I completed the Cat system within 21 jumps and did a 16 way (being held onto in the base) on my 17th B'day with just 30+ jumps (British Weather and my dad tightened wallet prevented me from doing more jumps). My dad has retired now but I am still going, out of his 5 children I was the only he allowed to jump so young and I am the only one who is still jumping, from 6 I always knew this is something I wanted to do! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #34 March 17, 2004 QuoteI watched a 5 year old fly in the tunnel last week. She loved it. In the Vegas tunnel, they have a little batman suit for kids that age. Looks pretty cool Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #35 March 17, 2004 QuotePlease extend others the courtesy that they know their children at least as well as you know yours, and have the option to risk their lives as you risked your son's. This is fine, and of course in this regard you are completely correct. I do not mean to impose my standards or reasonings upon anybody, the same as I do not desire theirs imposed upon me. Anyone willing to take full accountability and responsibility for THEMSELVES, or those within their charge and accept the full concequences of their actions accordingly, IMO s/be absolutely free to do so. BTW, one other clarification. "Flying" the airplane for my 14yr old son was a somewhat relative term, and at the time did NOT endanger anyone else, other than perhaps the PIC who w/have made his own individual assessments and decisions at the time. "Holding the yoke" briefly at 13k from the right-seat of an otter after ALL other passengers (ie: skydivers) had been discharged, I would hardly call really, flying the airplane. My fault in posting it that way though. Did not mean to merely further muddy the waters here. I do still beleive that anyone who feels they "KNOW" that their 12-13 year old child "can handle it" is delluding themselves however. This is my opinion. I agree chronological age just for age's sake (your 1 day over 15, 16, 17 or 18 for example well taken) can also be arbitrary at best. But somewhere within there, I do believe there is a reasonably presumable minimum threshold point that should be ascribed to, culturally and developmentally. 13 or UNDER in the current modern "western" culture? That one I think can still be argued.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #36 March 17, 2004 >I do still beleive that anyone who feels they "KNOW" that their 12-13 > year old child "can handle it" is delluding themselves however. Some may be. Others are not. Several 12-13 year old children have jumped, and most of them have been able to handle it. I agree that some parents have unrealistic expectations of their children, but of the ones I know (the Farringtons, Roger Nelson, Mike Mullins) their trust in their children's judgement seemed to be a good call. >But somewhere within there, I do believe there is a reasonably > presumable minimum threshold point that should be ascribed to, > culturally and developmentally. 13 or UNDER in the current > modern "western" culture? That one I think can still be argued. Ideally? I think it should always be up to the parents. In the real world of evil, malicious, and just plain dumb parents, some kind of minimum age probably makes sense. But we have that now in the BSR's, and the only people who can get around that (i.e. Roger Nelson) are the ones that really understand the sport inside and out. And I'm fine with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #37 March 17, 2004 QuoteHow? My copy of the BSRs lists 16-years-old as a non-waiverable minimum. Did they just go to non-USPA dropzones? I believe the incident in question on Real TV happened in South America. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #38 March 17, 2004 Quote A MINOR has no capacity (under the law or otherwise) to fully cognizantly, and rationally make those decisions. No capacity under the law, sure. But otherwise? I don't think so. We let 16 year olds drive cars, that's hardly safe behavior. 12 year olds ride around on bikes in traffic daily, that ain't safe. 18 years olds are adults under the law, but we still don't let them drink alcohol in most states until they reach 21. Capacity isn't an on or off thing, there are degrees to it. For a kid raised around a dropzone all his life I'd say it's likely he has a better idea of the risks at 12 then I did when I started at 29. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #39 March 17, 2004 QuoteI think 18 is a good age limit because you have lived long enough to make that kind of decision. I think my fifteen year old who made 8 tandemjumps - first one at the age of eight - and who is planning to make his first solo (static line) at his 16th birthday would strongly disagree with you. But that's nothing new I guess, 15 year olds disagreeing with something... Quote I was ready to die, I gave it about a 50% chance that I would perish. Observing others making parachute jumps throughout his childhood led him to believe the odds are slightly more favorable than that... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #40 March 17, 2004 Hi Peter, I have been thinking about this for quite some time latly... Only the BVR states a child must 16, in nowhere to be found in the RVSS. So technicly, since PCA is at the moment not afiliated with the KNVvL your kid can jump there. You just need someone who will state he is his instructor (someone without KNVvL papers, but could be the pilot) and your homefree... ! Don't know if this would help other things though... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #41 March 17, 2004 QuoteI do still beleive that anyone who feels they "KNOW" that their 12-13 year old child "can handle it" is delluding themselves however. Parents as a rule view their children through rosy glasses. Just as nearly everyone believes themselves to be a better than average driver, most parents think their children brighter and more mature than is the norm. They also lack the life experierence to have any idea how they'd handle a bad situation. Will they panic? I'd be more willing to permit a tandem than an AFF or SL. The FJC instructor that is not related to the family could be a good safety check, if they are willing and capable of making that judgement. This sport is not at all like dirt bikes or skateboards. The first AFF jump is nearly as dangerous as the 100th. You can't go slower or do easier moves or pick easier terrain, and you don't just scrape your elbow if you screw up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpndoc 0 #42 March 18, 2004 SIM gives 16 years old as minimum. All the drop zones in CA won't let a 16 yo jump because of liability (lawyers rule in CA). Other places is hit or miss. Two of my kids started jumping at 16 and one at 18 (for varying resons). I would put my 16 yo up against most the over 18 yo that start jumping at our DZ, but they grew up around the DZ and knew all the dumb mistakes that could be made. None of my kids were ready at 13. Two of them could have done well at 15 and one wasn't really ready until about 17 or so. It's a judgment call even for adults. There are a lot of skydivers oveer 18 I have seen around who scare me... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AirCav 0 #43 March 18, 2004 quote:....... as long as everything works as illustrated in the manufacturer's manual :). It's those instances where things don't go according to plan that would put even the most capable 13 year olds at risk of killing themselves. __________________________________________________ Yeah, I sure am glad my first malfuctions were at 14 years old and not 13. GW685,D3888,C5052,SCS843 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinblind 0 #44 March 18, 2004 Well aren't you just the man? Have a cutaway yet? What age was that? Look, you could have 100,000 people who started skydiving before they were 16 or 18 and I would still say it's too dangerous to be a responsible idea. Seriously, I think you should have to have a minimal license to have a child. I mean you have to have one to drive a car for God's sake but you don't have to have one to bring a life that you're responsible for into the world? Well I guess that's why society has all the problems it does.. Anyway, that's not meant as a flame tot anyone on this board, seriously. Just a little venting.. peace, timmah cheers and blue skies, timmah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AirCav 0 #45 March 18, 2004 Quote:....Well aren't you just the man? __________________________________________________ Well. yes I am , thank you very much!GW685,D3888,C5052,SCS843 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #46 March 18, 2004 QuoteMullins' and Nelson's kids both started that early IIRC. QuoteSolo???? with little or no training??? Nope, they were extensively trained, went through a rigorous progression - and could fly circles around most of their adult counterparts before they hit puberty. Blue skies, Winsor And if I remember correctly, Charlie Mullins was swooping Icarus Extremes as small as 69 and 58 s.f. at wingloadings over 2.5:1 before he was old enough to drink. Blue Skies Billy"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #47 March 18, 2004 QuoteAll the drop zones in CA won't let a 16 yo jump because of liability (lawyers rule in CA). Right - the 18 year minimum is about minor law, not about FAA rules. I believe it's a federal law that says minors are not bound by legal waivers, so they can still successfully sue a DZ if they get hurt, even after signing the waiver. Also, parents cannot sign away their children's rights, so even if the parent/guardian signs the waiver, it will not hold up in court. Note that I'm not a lawyer, so the previous was just my unprofessional understanding of US law. Now Columbia is a different story, I'm sure. When I was diving in Belize a few years ago, the divemaster's "assistant" was an 8-year old boy, wearing adult gear that didn't fit him. Little guy was a better diver than most of us on the boat.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conundrum 1 #48 March 18, 2004 Jumping at 13 years old? That just seems crazy to me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #49 March 18, 2004 If Mom and Dad own the DZ and the land and the planes,,and no one complains,,then there's not much anyone can do.smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
osuskydiver 0 #50 March 18, 2004 I know alot of very mature 13 and 14 year olds that are way more mature than some of the skydivers I know. By the time you read this you have already read it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
