CSPA Student training at DZ's under scrutiney?

[flyinchicken 0]

If you are an instructor in Canada you may be interested in this article:

Toronto Star
News, Friday, April 9, 2004, p. A13
Skydiver's death leads to call for regulation

Leslie Ferenc

All beginners' skydiving programs should be grounded immediately until the federal government adopts strict safety regulations for sport parachute jumping, a coroner's jury has said.

That was among 12 recommendations following an inquest into the death of 38-year-old Gareth Rodgers. The Sutton father of three plunged 1,060 metres to his death while skydiving in August, 2002. His wife Lisa was videotaping the jump, his sixth as a student at the Parachute School of Toronto, which operates out of the Baldwin airfield in Georgina. He died 20 seconds after jumping from the Cessna 182.

The inquest was told how Rodgers did all the right things, but his main parachute became tangled in his reserve chute, according to police.

In its verdict, the five-member jury found Rodgers died of blunt force injuries because his main and reserve parachutes malfunctioned, but why that happened was "undetermined."

During his address to the jury last week, Newmarket Assistant Crown Attorney Harold Dale urged the panel to bring in a verdict of homicide.

"I suggest to you that the attitude of those at the Parachute School of Toronto reflects one of indifference, or a lack of reasonable or proper care and attention for the lives or safety of others as expected of a reasonable person," he told jurors.

In an interview yesterday, he said there was not enough evidence for a criminal charge in Rodgers' death.

Rodgers' family had been hoping for a verdict of homicide, his sister Melanie Tetlock said after the 21/2-week inquest ended in Aurora yesterday. She said that would have set a precedent, "as skydiving fatalities have traditionally been regarded as accidental."

Outside the inquest, Adam Mabee, Parachute School of Toronto Ltd. president, said he will study the jury's recommendations "to see how operations can be made safer." He said the school has been operating for almost 30 years, with 170,000 jumps and four fatalities.

Tetlock said Rodgers' family was "initially disappointed" by the verdict but understood the jurors had limited choices. Under the Coroner's Act, a jury has five options when ruling on cause of death: natural, suicide, accident, homicide or undetermined.

The family is pressing the federal government for strict regulation of skydiving schools "so further loss of life may be avoided," Tetlock said.

Eighty people have died parachuting in Canada in the past 25 years.

The jury recommended that federal teaching standards and regulations be developed to safeguard novice and student sport parachutists, and that Transport Canada regulate sport parachuting, and shut down all clubs and schools failing to adhere to those federal regulations.


Category: News
Uniform subject(s): Investigations; Laws and regulations
Length: Medium, 357 words

© 2004 Toronto Star. All rights reserved.

"Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman

[scottjaco 0]

how did the main get entangled with the reserve?
Did the guy try to cut away?

[flyinchicken 0]

I wish I had more information to share with you about the incedent. heard about it 2 years ago, remembered reading about it in the paper and hearing our CSPA rep talking about it at the DZ. I was under the impression it wasn't the DZ's fault. This article however makes it seem as if there was something "wrong" that happend.
I am going to search the site of the paper, and see if I can come up with anything else from the archives.

"Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman

[chuteless 1]

Operating for 30 years and 170,000 jumps.............. I do believe that they've been dropping students for 30 years between the Arthur DZ and Baldwin DZ, but DO NOT believe they have made 170,000 jumps at that school.

That would be an average of 5666 jumps per year, 472 per month including Winter ,and thats a lot of CRAP.

Its not surprising they didnt list the high number of injuries during the 30 years.


Bill Cole D-41

[tonyhays 86]

When tragedies like this happen, family members look for someone to blame. Rarely will they accept the fact that their loved one could be the one to blame. If you were in their shoes, could you honestly say you wouldn't be doing the same thing?

It seems to be a sad, reoccuring theme of skydiving.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[PhreeZone 15]

5666 jumps a year is only 1400 loads, or 120 a month. I've seen more then one Cessna operation run 15-18 loads every day on the weekend. Toss in the few week day loads and those jumps...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I've seen more then one Cessna operation run 15-18 loads every day on the weekend.

Dude, that's NOTHING, I've seen that with 2 182s doing about that apiece, I'm more then sure you have too.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[murrays 0]

Bill,

PST used to do 4,000 first jumpers a year... the total number of jumps isn't unreasonable.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[riggerrob 558]

Back in 1979, when I was jumping at Arthur, Ontario, they had a Cessna 180 and 206 going all day. Skygods jumped from the Beech 18 all day and when sunset approached, we often filled the last Beech load of the day with static-liners.
Yes Arthur was a busy DZ back in the 1970s.

[Tink1717 2]

If he went in under a main/reserve entaglement, he DIDN'T do everything right.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[Zenister 0]

Quote

During his address to the jury last week, Newmarket Assistant Crown Attorney Harold Dale urged the panel to bring in a verdict of homicide.

"I suggest to you that the attitude of those at the Parachute School of Toronto reflects one of indifference, or a lack of reasonable or proper care and attention for the lives or safety of others as expected of a reasonable person," he told jurors.

In an interview yesterday, he said there was not enough evidence for a criminal charge in Rodgers' death.

can you say headline grabbing law scum? i sure can....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[wallygator 0]

complete copy of the inquest findings are in the incidents forumn under ''incidents???''.

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who Jah bless Let no man curse.

[jumperconway 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=281216#281216

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1025644#1025644

[flyinchicken 0]

Quote

- the jumper exited a 182 at around 3200' for an IAD
- the jumpmaster reports seeing a main bag lock, followed by a cutaway seemingly simultaneous with the main inflating
- the reserve was deployed to line stretch, but did not come out of the freebag
- the main landed some distance from the jumper

Sounds strange.... a reserve not coming out of the free bag?

"Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman

[jumperconway 0]

Quote

Quote

- the jumper exited a 182 at around 3200' for an IAD
- the jumpmaster reports seeing a main bag lock, followed by a cutaway seemingly simultaneous with the main inflating
- the reserve was deployed to line stretch, but did not come out of the freebag
- the main landed some distance from the jumper

Sounds strange.... a reserve not coming out of the free bag?


quote;
We have tried to simulate (on the ground) as many possible reserve baglock scenarios as we can think of with identical student gear, and we could not manage to make the reserve bag stay locked

• Quote

[flyinchicken 0]

Quote

We have tried to simulate (on the ground) as many possible reserve baglock scenarios as we can think of with identical student gear, and we could not manage to make the reserve bag stay locked

Hmmm sounds like something up with the pilot chute of the reserve or the free bag too tight? I am not a rigger.. so this is just a thought.

This sounds a little scarey considering the coroner's report. I hate to think of our DZ's being robbed of thier primary income because of this.

I feel for the family of the deceased.....but he was skydiving. If you jump out of planes EXPECT something to happen to you. If you or the people you love cannot live with that... then don't jump!

This does not mean that I believe that all skydivers should jump with a deathwish. It means that you should accept the dangers of the sport and make sure your family is completely aware of them. Not only will this make you a better skydiver....but it will protect your loved ones and the DZ if something does happen.

"Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The recommendations of this inquiry are from a jury. Twelve whuffos who are specifically tasked with making recommendations to prevent a recurrence. The system is heavily slanted to making unreasonable recommendations. No evidence would have been entertained as to the costs associated with their results. Transport Canada on the other hand does have to look at costs.
What is disturbing is that another inquiry is about to begin in Alberta this week. The recommendations will undoubtedly contain some call for regulation; they always do.

[chuteless 1]

If CSPA had any idea of how to properly administer their responsibilities, they would appoint a Public Relations officer, to take the initiative in cases like these, and minimize the potential damage that will obviously ensue by a wuffo jury.

What they need is a good public relations program, with material at the ready, to begin their drive to show responisble behaviour at the time of the fatality, not only of the particular dropzone, but by their poorly run national organization.

They have to stop fumbling around with unimportant issues, trying hard to ostrasize individuals, and make more effort to prepare for problems , that if not properly taken care of, will end up allowing Coroner's juries to destroy all parachuting throughout the country.

All that will be left is the Canadian Forces Skyhawks parachute team.



I realize CSPA is an amateur sport organization, but it must start to be run with a professional attitude, and a measure of integrity.

Bill Cole D-41

[burbleflyer 0]

Quote

Operating for 30 years and 170,000 jumps.............. I do believe that they've been dropping students for 30 years between the Arthur DZ and Baldwin DZ, but DO NOT believe they have made 170,000 jumps at that school.

That would be an average of 5666 jumps per year, 472 per month including Winter ,and thats a lot of CRAP.

Its not surprising they didnt list the high number of injuries during the 30 years.


Bill Cole D-41

I was there thru the eighties and they were training 1800-2000 first jump students a year. Yes, we did jump in the winter, a lot. We even had a snowbird club for those who made fifty or more jumps over the winter. I know for a fact that the staff could have accounted for 5,000 jumps in a good year.
The jump numbers are correct. You sir, are full of crap. When was the last time you even made a jump Bill?

[mccurley 0]

Ya bill I have all the respect in the world for you, but I know PAT when they operated at Arthur did relativly huge numbers for Canada, especialy in the eighties, and the numbers quoted are not unrealistic.

Watch my video Fat Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI

[riggerrob 558]

burblelfyer,

Lighten up with the personal attacks.

riggerrob

[riggerrob 558]

The jury clearly does not understand Canadian Forces policy or standards vis a vis parachute training. When I went through the Canadian Parachute Center in CFB Edmonton in 1981, we spent two weeks doing push-ups and two days jumping.
Freefall training consisted of giving students two round parachutes with an AAD on the main and tossing them out of a C-130 at 10,000' with only an "observer." The only thing that has changed since then is the introduction of square parachutes for freefallers. Doctrine remains the same. None of the Canadian military freefall instructors have anywhere near the skills of civilian PFF or AFF instructors.
Also remember that just last summer the Commanding Officer of the Canadian Army Parachute school died when he cutaway too high over water.
Sorry, but if that jury's recommendations become law, I will quit the skydiving industry.
I have no desire to step back 40 years!

Ironically, when the Canadian Armed Forces Search and Rescue Technicians decided to update their syllabus last year, they turned to CSPA. Now most of the instructors at the CSAR School at CFB Comox hold CSPA Coach ratings.

As for CSPA not ENFORCING BSRs ... the Canadian government never gave CSPA the authority or the money to ENFORCE.

[burbleflyer 0]

Quote

burblelfyer,

Lighten up with the personal attacks.

riggerrob

Not a personal attack. Just a reply to what he said:

Quote

That would be an average of 5666 jumps per year, 472 per month including Winter ,and thats a lot of CRAP.

It wasnt a personal attack.
He said crap, I said he was full of crap. He made a statement without the facts to back it up and he was wrong.
And, I dont believe he has made a jump in the last ten years.
Look, I remember his old TV commercial from when I was a kid. Thats cool, but come on. This sport has come a long way since Mr Chuteless has done any skydiving.
If you're gonna call bullshit, you better be right and he was wrong.
He wasnt even active in 82 when I started jumping except for one or two demo jumps a year and he took the hollywood demos from the real skydivers.
JMHO, YMMV.

[skypuppy 1]

People might have more respect for YOUR position if you put your name and location in your profile. You don't have to tear people down if you can prove you know what you're talking about... It was a personal attack. As a teacher seeing you like this at recess with another kid I'd send you both over to stand by the wall.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[packerboy 3]

I have to agree with skypuppy, it sounds totally personal. Whatever Bill's reasons are for not being an "active" jumper now, should not have any bearing whatsoever on his knowledge of the sport or how it has evolved, just because he doesn't fling himself from airplanes anymore doesn't make him blind or deaf.

Taking demo's from real skydivers.... come on, you don't even want to post all of your information on a website of "peers", and you want to be king of PR for the sport all of a sudden? Have you really done 9500 jumps? Where? I may be mistaken, but not alot of Canadian jumpers have those kind of numbers, and this is a "Canadian issue of sorts"

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson