How safe are all these Twin Otters?

[rickjump1 0]

Where I work it is not uncommon for a prospective customer to have a consultant eyeball our maintenance and pilot records at headquarters and out in the field. He/she might spend days observing maintenance and flight operations. As skydivers, we have no such leverage. I think the average skydiver relies on word of mouth or discussions such as this to make a decision where to jump. Leased aircraft away from home for any length of time gotta have maintenance records. I would think the dzo would want to make you maintenance types happy and open up the books. You guys are the ones I would listen to. ps not all good mechanics want airline jobs.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[flyangel2 2]

When I see the owner getting into one of the aircrafts out at your DZ, that tells me alot.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[diablopilot 2]

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When I see the owner getting into one of the aircrafts out at your DZ, that tells me alot.

Good point. At least one owner jumps from the A/C here, and one flys them.

Same at my old DZ.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

Do you actually know WHY those S. Otters were grounded?


1. The S. Otters are basically only used for the skydiving program at the academy. (I know you know that, others may not).

2. the contract service that works on all of the Academy's gliders made some errors in maintenance logs.

3. The otters stay over at peterson air force base....a different set of contractors work on them but are under the same company name.

4. The commandant of cadets grounded all planes that had been touched by the contracting company.


So basically, you're crying wolf, there is nothing wrong with the fleet of S. Otters being used all over the country that the USAF knows about but the civilian side doesn't.

Oh, my sources? Not gonna tell you, although I'll say that he/she happens to do a lot of studying and PT in CO...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mjosparky 3]

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But the aircraft is out of my control, isn’t it?

Your reserve is out of your control, if your profile is correct, but you still jump with it.

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Look at all these questions, yet all I hear is, “our planes are great because we have an onsite mechanic” … HOLY SHIT if that’s not the scariest statement of the century. So is this a burnout that couldn’t get a real job with the airlines…the jet engine too much for his reciprocating engine brain? I’d rather the aircraft are taken to a national company with the resources available than to Joe Bunda of the greesemonkey crew. Oh I know we all like Joe, but there is a reason Joe works for the DZ and not the big boys.

These so call "burnouts" you speak of all hold a A&P Cert. (airframe & powerplant) from the FAA. That is the same Cert. held by the folks that work on the last airline you flew on.

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(Yes, I was a USAF Aircraft mechanic for many years, PLEASE don’t preach to me about grounding a fleet of aircraft based on paperwork, I’ve never heard of it).

You were an AF mechanic, did you ever get your A&P rating from the FAA? If you were a mechanic for the AF, why do you live in England, Europe?

In the real world we deal with the things we have control and knowledge of. If we are smart we leave the things we know nothing about to those that have the training and education to deal with.
The other choice is to not get involved in anything until we have learn all there is to know about it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[relyon 0]

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... the USAF doesn’t break the 85% barrier on any given day or wartime situation. ...

Does that include the C-141 that had a wing fall off while taxiing a few years ago?

Kapowsin's aircraft are maintained by the chief pilot, inspected by the DZO, and jumped by the entire family. Works for me.

Bob

[Amazon 7]

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Kapowsin's aircraft are maintained by the chief pilot, inspected by the DZO, and jumped by the entire family. Works for me.

Dont forget FLOWN by the DZO frequently.. and brand new spiffy engines... RAWK.

[PhreeZone 15]

>Good thing it’s overhauled and upgraded … ummm can you tell all of us EXACTLY what that means?

New wings if needed, new landing legs, new front gear, new cables, you know... Overhauled. More then just a new paint job. Lots more... And the upgrade? Swapping the PT6-20 engines for PT6-27's And low hour -27's at that. That involves an upgrade in the wingstructure to meet the specs layed out be DHC.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[beej 0]

man..all this negative worrying...like jump plane twin otters have been falling out of the sky like birdshit? Go away, get your A&P and then go fix something, your obviously bored.

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If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[wingnut 0]

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Would you fix those "minor" things if the cost came out of your pocket and not from the parts bin of a Military base?

nope, that's why i said minor.. if it had been major i would of been telling somebody about it right then and not jumping that aircraft anymore..........

______________________________________
"i have no reader's digest version"

[WFFC 1]

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And the deep pockets in the military don't seem to be as deep as some might think?

The Academy might be diverting their TwOtter $ to their PR campaigns from their 'indiscretions' of recent years.

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~~~Michael

[Tonto 1]

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Twin Otters are almost idiot-proof jump planes.
However, if 20 idiots cram aft of the wing and the pilot lets it get a bit too slow on jump run, even an airplane as forgiving as a Twin Otter can be stalled and spun.
They were originally designed to have the snot beaten out of them on airstrips much shorter and rougher than found at most DZs. Their PT6 engines are cast-iron reliable and they are simple to fly.

(Snip)

Skydivers can do their part by sitting down, belting up and shutting up. The better skydivers keep their weight forward until it is their turn to exit and waste little time fussing about in the door.

Tell that to the 16 dead people after the Otter crash at Perris in April 1992...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[calphoto 0]

Very true. The crash mentioned had nothing to do with the Otter and everything to do with dropzone operations.

1. IDENTIFY (DEAD LEG=DEAD ENGINE)
2. VERIFY (SLOWLY RETARD SUSPECTED ENGINE'S THROTTLE. IF NO CHANGE IN DL/DE, THEN:),
3. FEATHER!

"There was a long discussion awhile back about the
April 22, 1992 crash at Perris, CA involving a
DeHavilland DHC-6-200 Twin Otter that killed
2 pilots and 14 skydivers, and injured 6 other
skydivers. The September, 1993 issue of
_NTSB_REPORTER_ has an article that states
that the NTSB has adopted a probable cause
for this accident. I thought the net might
be interested in this.


If you recall, the Twin Otter had just taken off
from Perris Valley Airport for a skydiving drop
flight. Immediately after takeoff, the right engine
lost power, the right wing dropped to about vertical,
and the aircraft crashed next to the runway.


The NTSB investigation found that the pilots failed
to sump check the fuel tanks after the aircraft had
been fueled from the fuel truck. Fuel from the tank
that had been feeding the right engine was found to
contain approx 8 gallons of a heavily contaminated
mixture of water, an emulsifying agent, and
bacterial growth. Fuel from the airport's fuel
truck (which had been filled from an underground
storage tank) and underground storage tank contained the
same mixture. The NTSB also found that the _LEFT_
propeller control was seized in the feather position
and the left propeller blades had almost moved all
the way to the feather position before impact.


The NTSB had determined that the probable cause of
the accident was the pilot in command's inadvertent
feathering of the wrong propeller after experiencing
an engine power loss, and the failure of the aircraft's
operator to assure that the pilot was provided with
adequate training in the airplane. Related factors
were: water contamination of the fuel in the airport
storage tanks, the operator's lack of fuel quality
control procedures, improper fuel servicing, improper
preflight by the pilot(s), and exceeding the gross
weight/forward c.g. limits of the airplane."

Hartwood Paracenter - The closest DZ to DC!

[hukturn 0]

It believe the primary question would be, why were they grounded? I mean, the military will suspend use of it's equipment for some very simple reasons. How long were they downed?
Not meaning to sound "old", but when many of us began skydiving, we were jumping piston prop Beech-18's and Twin Bonanzas. Now, these planes leaked oil like pouring soda from a can. They spat 4ft flames on startup and lost engine power in flight sometimes. I (and my gear) have been pelted by oil drops thrown from high RPM engines. Still, we survived. Was it safe...probably, but not as safe as the planes today.
Sorry to ramble, guess I'm just feeling nostalgic. Geez, maybe I AM just getting old?!?

[freefallin14 0]

"Look at all these questions, yet all I hear is, “our planes are great because we have an onsite mechanic” … HOLY SHIT if that’s not the scariest statement of the century. So is this a burnout that couldn’t get a real job with the airlines…the jet engine too much for his reciprocating engine brain? I’d rather the aircraft are taken to a national company with the resources available than to Joe Bunda of the greesemonkey crew. Oh I know we all like Joe, but there is a reason Joe works for the DZ and not the big boys."


Stateofnature, you sir, are a ..... Get your A&P, a commercial, maybe a few instructor ratings, and then come speak on this forum about how we shouldn't feel safe in our twin otters. You don't have a clue about the grounding incident, and you don't have a clue about the maintenance done at most dropzones. Talking about some burn out that couldn't get on with the airlines? I know this may come as a shock, but some mechanics would rather work in GA than commercial. Until you've been at both, you cannot possibly know the benefits/negatives to both. I would rather work on a Citabria than 737 landing gear assembly any day of the week. Find a DZ/owner/pilot/mechanic you trust and their word is the only true way you know if an aircraft is airworthy, because their eyes are the only ones that have seen the inspections done.


Good thing it’s overhauled and upgraded … ummm can you tell all of us EXACTLY what that means?

- sure, it means that the STC has been performed in accordance with the FAA approved documentation.

What part is upgraded in the aircraft that makes it better and a non-upgraded one?

-look in the STC/337, the FAA won't approve a major repair or alteration without some considerable research, engineering, and/or flight testing.

Was there something wrong with the non-upgraded version that people have been wooled over for 30 years?

-probably not, but the 737 has gone from JT8D's to CFM56's. There was nothing wrong with the JT8D, the CFM56 just makes better economical sense, and results in better performance. Such is the case with the twin otter engine upgrade.

What parts are changed?

-look in the logbooks, only way to know.


How many times has the same engine been overhauled?

See answer above.

[AndyMan 7]

The answer to your concerns are simple.

When was the last time a Twin Otter crashed while performing jump ops?

Of the Otter crashes that did happen, how many of these were related to the design or maintenance of the planes? How many were pilot or ground crew error?

What does this track record tell you?

Twin Otters fly jumpers for hundreds of thousands of hours each year in the US. If they were unsafe, we would probably be the first to know.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mjosparky 3]

Ever feel like you just stepped on you willy?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[benny 0]

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When I see the owner getting into one of the aircrafts out at your DZ, that tells me alot.

Plus the pilot, I mean, this guy's got training, if he'll fly it without a rig, I'll definitely ride in it with one.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[Amazon 7]

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Plus the pilot, I mean, this guy's got training, if he'll fly it without a rig, I'll definitely ride in it with one.

Aww well I was planning on getting out anyway...

Landing in Airplanes scares me... I mean flying is great.. but that last half inch can be a real killer.

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Make way for blanket generalizations and wild stereotypes...

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So is this a burnout that couldn’t get a real job with the airlines…the jet engine too much for his reciprocating engine brain? I’d rather the aircraft are taken to a national company with the resources available than to Joe Bunda of the greesemonkey crew. Oh I know we all like Joe, but there is a reason Joe works for the DZ and not the big boys.

On second thought, just make way for gross inaccuracy and flagrant disrespect. Seriously, it's okay to have an opinion and all, which you seem to have, but how can you begin to pass judgment on someone's choice of life if it's different from what YOU would do if you were in their shoes? Would you say the same of the brilliant small-business[wo]man who decided to keep their enterprise small and manageable instead of selling it off to Corporate America and working for Someone Else? How about the mechanic who prefers to work on classic, carburated engines instead of fuel-injected, aluminum, computerized street rods.
Maybe you'd rather the planes be taken to a national company, but what's wrong w/ the accredited, certified mechanic who prefers to work for himself or a smaller group of people?
Have an opinion? Fine. But please, show a little respect.
-C.

[diverdriver 5]

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Twin Otters fly jumpers for hundreds of thousands of hours each year in the US. If they were unsafe, we would probably be the first to know.

_Am

....pppsssstt.....Andy.... The whole fleet of jump planes (Casas, Otters, 182s, 206s, Skyvans, etc...) fly a total of about 100,000 hours per year. So, I know that otters in the US don't fly 100s of thousands of hours per year.

Just thought you might want to know.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[jdfreefly 1]

You want reaons...fine I'll give you 2 reasons why I trust the aircraft at Crosskeys.

Reason number one: I know John Eddowes. I have known him for 7 years. I would trust him with my life, and I do so every time I ride in one of his airplanes, or his helicopter. He was telling me about replacing a part on one of the planes that probably could have made it to the next maintenance window. If you know anything about the weather the northeast saw last year, you will know that money is tight. I asked him why not just wait. HIs response was, "Some of my best friends get in those airplanes every day."

That is good enough for me.

Reason number 2: My uncle was, until he was promoted, the FAA safety inspector for our airport. He had personally grounded planes leased by other companies before Eddowes went out and got his own. He is fanatical about safety, maintenance, and every little rule he can find in his rule book. In short, he is a real hard ass. Since the dropzone started supplying their own airplanes, he has had nothing but great things to say about the operation there. Also, to the best of my knowledge, not one of our planes has ever been grounded by him or one of his underlings. He speaks with admiration and approval when he talks about our opperation. Also, he knows, that if I die in a plane crash that was the result of something he let slide, he will have to look my mother in the eye and tell her that.

If that isn't good enough for you, you can go pound sand. I hate fear mongering and as far as I can tell, that is all you are doing.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[AndyMan 7]

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....pppsssstt.....Andy.... The whole fleet of jump planes (Casas, Otters, 182s, 206s, Skyvans, etc...) fly a total of about 100,000 hours per year. So, I know that otters in the US don't fly 100s of thousands of hours per year.

My bad. I thought it was a good guess.

Anyways, I think my point is still valid. The safety record of the Otter is pretty good. If there was a problem, I think we'd know about it.

The simple absense of major incindents is proof that there's nothing wrong.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Mak 0]

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.

The simple absense of major incindents is proof that there's nothing wrong.

_Am

Be careful of making that assumption. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.