No hackey at pull time = reserve ride

[shorehambeach 9]

I saw a reserve ride a few days ago and spoke to the jumper.

He explained that at pull time (3500ft) he reached for his pull and it wasn't there. He tried again but still nothing to grab...so he cutaway and deployed his reserve and had an uneventful landing.

On the ground he found his hackey tucked up into the pouch for the pilot chute.

As he was checked fully (as is the DZ policy in the UK - the DZ is very on pre-boarding checks. ) before he got onto the plane... and he said he had checked in the plane before exit...


....but must have hit it with his heel in freefall.

Taking this on face value has anyone heard of the hackey being pushed into the pouch in freefall on a solo ?



Jumper is A licence - rental gear - 210NAV with approx wing-loading of 1.0 and this was jump 54

[excaza 1]

I suppose it is possible, but I'd guess it's more likely he pushed it in himself while checking his PC before getting in the door after being checked ("oh, that seems a bit far out, let me tuck it in") or he wasn't actually checked in the plane.

[Remster 24]

Quote

....but must have hit it with his heel in freefall.

I highly doubt that. Probably more a case of it being pushed into the pouch during climb out / moving to the door.

Remster

[shorehambeach 9]

It was a dive exit

[Remster 24]

Still. Unless the guy was a gymnast, legs don't bend that way. I'd put money on it happening in the plane.

Remster

[shorehambeach 9]

I would too. I would be interested to hear of anyone that has heard otherwise. Guess he'll be checking his handles a lot more from now on

[DSE 3]

It may have also been further pushed in while crammed into a seat, but wasn't properly checked on the way to the door. It's skydiving, sometimes things happen in spite of our best efforts to see that all goes as it should.

If he tried twice and went to his reserve, it seems he did as trained. Does someone have a problem with his actions?

[degeneration 5]

Did the person who checked and signed for him confirm 100% that the hackey was sticking out of the pouch when he checked, or did he not actually check properly, assuming it was there etc?

Definitely a hackey not the tube handle thing?

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Remster 24]

Quote

Does someone have a problem with his actions?

Nope!

Remster

[dthames 0]

On a 5 second delay student jump I got in a rush to get out because of a cloud we were heading for. I failed to check mine at exit time. It was one of those hard plastic types and I guess i had sat against something. It was inside the pouch.

When I reached and missed it, my index finger happened to go inside the pouch, happened to go right into the end of the cylinder, I hooked my finger, pulled it out of the pouch, grabbed it as you normally would and got it out on the 7 count.

While it never turned into a crisis, it was a well taught lesson. It is hard to imagine it happeneing in freefall.

If the PC was pushed really far into the pouch so that the spandex opening was tensioned against a hard handle, then I guess any movement or twisting of the rig might make the pouch opening slide over the handle the rest of the way. But that is no way to pack a PC, but might invite such an event if done.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[splat123 0]

I always ask people to reach and touch deployment handle on gear checks, most UK jumpers do. My bet, happened in plane. Always check all 3 handles just before you exit.

[labrys 0]

Quote

Nope!

He could have tried 3 times, then tried to reorganize his rig in-flight, then dropped his reserve handle and flailed around until he managed to deploy his reserve with the cable. Not that I'd recommend that method

Owned by Remi #?

[JerryBaumchen 1,068]

Hi Douglas,

Quote

Does someone have a problem with his actions?

Only that he wasted expensive time & altitude in 'cutting away'.

What is there to cutaway from in that situation?

JerryBaumchen

[normiss 624]

I did this once.

Rode my motorcycle to the dz with the rig on my back.


First reach, I knew instantly.
I reached inside the BOC and retrieved it.

Never again.

[chuckakers 370]

shorehambeach

I saw a reserve ride a few days ago and spoke to the jumper.

He explained that at pull time (3500ft) he reached for his pull and it wasn't there. He tried again but still nothing to grab...so he cutaway and deployed his reserve and had an uneventful landing.

On the ground he found his hackey tucked up into the pouch for the pilot chute.

As he was checked fully (as is the DZ policy in the UK - the DZ is very on pre-boarding checks. ) before he got onto the plane... and he said he had checked in the plane before exit...


....but must have hit it with his heel in freefall.

Taking this on face value has anyone heard of the hackey being pushed into the pouch in freefall on a solo ?



Jumper is A licence - rental gear - 210NAV with approx wing-loading of 1.0 and this was jump 54

I doubt very seriously that a hackey could get pushed into the pouch very easily. Heck, just try it on the ground. My guess is it takes a very intentional effort well beyond a bump from a foot.

I bet it was missed on the pre-boarding gear check and he just thought he checked it in the plane. At jump 54 it wouldn't be surprising if he "remembered" doing it but didn't.

Assuming my guess above is correct, the bigger question is how did it get in there to begin with?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[grue 1]

normiss

I did this once.

Rode my motorcycle to the dz with the rig on my back.


First reach, I knew instantly.
I reached inside the BOC and retrieved it.

Never again.

buddy of mine at my old DZ threw his gear in his trunk to leave at end of day, got talked into one more load. Turns out he pushes in his hackey to store in the trunk… or he used to!

cavete terrae.

[JohnMitchell 14]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Douglas,

Quote

Does someone have a problem with his actions?

Only that he wasted expensive time & altitude in 'cutting away'.

What is there to cutaway from in that situation?

Ya beat me to it, Jerry.

We train the FJC to "cutaway" every time, but an experienced jumper should later modify his emergency procedures away from "one size fits all." I always say you should be able to think faster than you act.

[JohnMitchell 14]

grue

buddy of mine at my old DZ threw his gear in his trunk to leave at end of day, got talked into one more load. Turns out he pushes in his hackey to store in the trunk… or he used to!

Maybe he's started to do his "checks of 3" now.

[champu 1]

Does the plane have straddle-bench seating, floor seating, or some combination thereof?

The reason I ask is because if you're sitting on the floor of the aircraft leaning against a large student/rental rig you have to be particularly mindful of your main handle so it doesn't either walk into or out of the BOC pouch as you shift around. You should always be careful, of course, but floor seating with large rigs exacerbates the issue.

The bench set up in some aircraft (not just the PAC) also makes for a point in the climb where, after seatbelts come off, a couple people move from the bench to the floor, dragging their BOC/main handle and pin covers over the edge of the bench if they're not careful about it. This is also often the point in the climb where the door is opened on hot days, so care must be taken not to let a pilot chute work its way out. If I'm sitting near the door I will hold the door closed until after belts come off, people finish maneuvering, and I'm convinced no pilot chutes have come out. Sometimes this will require ignoring complaints from others on the plane for a whole 10 seconds, but complaints don't tend to wrap themselves around the tail of the aircraft quite like a canopy will.

Bottom line: Always remember that thing on your back moves when you do and it has three handles and two parachutes that you're responsible for.

[shropshire 0]

Skydiving is not a fairground ride .. check your shit (like your life depends upon it) and then check it again ..BEFORE YOU LEAVE THE DOOR!!

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[BIGUN 1,079]

JohnMitchell

***Hi Douglas,

Quote

Does someone have a problem with his actions?

Only that he wasted expensive time & altitude in 'cutting away'.

What is there to cutaway from in that situation?

Ya beat me to it, Jerry.

We train the FJC to "cutaway" every time, but an experienced jumper should later modify his emergency procedures away from "one size fits all." I always say you should be able to think faster than you act.
Afternoon, John.

At 54 jumps; his emergency procedures are more likely to be those he learned in the FJC. I give him kudos for performing a full EP instead of burning altitude trying to determine what type of EP's he should use.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[DrDom 0]

BIGUN

******Hi Douglas,

Quote

Does someone have a problem with his actions?

Only that he wasted expensive time & altitude in 'cutting away'.

What is there to cutaway from in that situation?

Ya beat me to it, Jerry.

We train the FJC to "cutaway" every time, but an experienced jumper should later modify his emergency procedures away from "one size fits all." I always say you should be able to think faster than you act.
Afternoon, John.

At 54 jumps; his emergency procedures are more likely to be those he learned in the FJC. I give him kudos for performing a full EP instead of burning altitude trying to determine what type of EP's he should use.

Basically the brain has 2 options:
1) Remain calm and use rational logic to determine how to fix the problem
2) default to prior training

the reason we generate such a profound EP response is so when something like this happens and you vapour lock you "do what you know" which most often works. Safety net. Maybe lost some altitude to cut... but better than getting confused and disoriented and having an AAD fire... or worse...

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[Andy9o8 0]

BIGUN

******Hi Douglas,

Quote

Does someone have a problem with his actions?

Only that he wasted expensive time & altitude in 'cutting away'.

What is there to cutaway from in that situation?

Ya beat me to it, Jerry.

We train the FJC to "cutaway" every time, but an experienced jumper should later modify his emergency procedures away from "one size fits all." I always say you should be able to think faster than you act.
Afternoon, John.

At 54 jumps; his emergency procedures are more likely to be those he learned in the FJC. I give him kudos for performing a full EP instead of burning altitude trying to determine what type of EP's he should use.

John and Jerry and I were all taught in our FJCs: "total mal = don't fuck around; go straight to reserve." So it's a matter of what you're taught, and then mentally rehearsing it countless times.

I'll bet the jumper in the OP lost close to an extra grand at terminal fucken around with that, unless he did a gunslinger (which I doubt).

When I had my total mal at 57 jumps, I wasn't confused. And here I am typing about it.

[BIGUN 1,079]

Quote

John and Jerry and I were all taught in our FJCs: "total mal = don't fuck around; go straight to reserve." So it's a matter of what you're taught, and then mentally rehearsing it countless times.

As has been taught at every DZ for years and is today. It's how I instructed and what I taught. Having said that, it's about the learning process and numerous other practical application learning methodologies. The bottom line is that which we teach the most is full EP's. It's what's practiced the most. Mainly because those mals we will see will be primarily those that require full EPs and only two which requires "Just go to silver."

In order for successful learning to take place, information has to move from the sensory or the short-term memory to the long-term memory. The EP that we teach the most will mostly be the one sub-100 students will go to in a highly induced adrenaline state.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[councilman24 36]

I don't have much grief teaching students one procedure, except I'd be dead if I cutaway from a PC in tow.

Of course I was taught, like I expect Jerry and the others, to through the reserve (chest) down and out in the direction of the spin.

But I don't like it. If his reserve had malfunctioned he would have already cutaway is only other good parachute.

He did fine. Did what he was trained and for students that training is okay. But I hate people that think "pulling silver" (I HATE THAT PHRASE!) is the answer to everything. Using their last chance to live. When you need it you need it. That's fine. And too many people don't use it soon enough. But there seems to be a cavalier attitude with newer jumpers, who already don't think they can die because they have an AAD.

The DZ I grew up at and trained at for a long time used SOS systems so didn't have to worry about more than one EP on student gear. But some of the transition training from RC to throw out and to two handle system was scary. Never could get one asshole from telling newbies to roll over and pull in a PC in tow before pulling the reserve.

This brings back to mind the days when people used to buy matching sets of canopies for main and reserve. Hmm, including one demo team routinely on dz.com. Until I pointed out that if they had an inadvertent reserve deployment, and it malfunctioned, they might want to know if it was the main or reserve so they didn't cut away their still packed main, the last good canopy they had.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE