MarkM 0 #26 July 19, 2004 Quote Thats what I was thinking. I pack quite a bit and I'd say on a good number of the rigs, the PC can be cocked and not show it on the window, due either to a 1/4 inch uncocking during bagging or just not having the color on the right area. I've had this twice on my rig. But my packer always checks to make sure the PC is inflated after the pin is set(swings the PC around). It's no big deal to just pull a little of the line out to make sure it really had just slipped, or if it really bothers you you can have the packer repack the PC. It takes what, 2 seconds to check your kill line window before putting your rig on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #27 July 19, 2004 Like Tom and Terry I firmly believe that there is a lot more responsibility to be beared by packers. Also, like Tom, I would not hesitate to fire the the packer and run him/her off the dropzone if they started a fist fight over the matter. I would also have no problem running the customer off if he/she elevated the matter out of civility and into fisticuffs. If you cannot get satisfaction from a vendor, you simply take your case to the next level of authority. No amount of seniority in any organization gives you the right to act untoward to that degree in the business world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelem 0 #28 July 19, 2004 QuoteHow about if the PC was cocked, but just slid the color just outside the window? In that case the packer has supplied a working parachute, and should be paid in my opinion. Again, this is something the jumper should have noticed on the ground and brought to the packers' attention. (equally, if the parachute had been jumped, then there wouldn't have been a problem) There are other ways to see if a pilot chute is cocked, so the packer may not have bothered to check the window even though he knew the pilot chute was cocked. (sorry if this is double posted, dz.com is being unreliable) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DancingFlame 0 #29 July 19, 2004 Agree. I would not encourage packers that do their job badly. If he packed a mal (line-over, spinning or other mal) then he should not be payed. Instead, he should pay a rigger for my reserve repack! If the packer is sure he did a good job, and his customer is not, packer should take a rig and jump it himself. If there is no mals, customer must pay for two pack jobs and two jump tickets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #30 July 19, 2004 In defence of the packer, I have seen hundreds of main bridles - that were correctly cocked - where you could not see the colour on the kill-line. This is not the packer's problem. If the customer is too lazy to ask a rigger to re-mark his bridle of replace a worn kill-line. Skydivers who do not check their gear before donning it are lazy and deserve what they get. I see far too many junior jumpers fixated on colored kill-lies without understanding the cocking process or alternate methods of comfirming that the pilot chute is cocked. This makes as much sense as freaking out over a low-oil-warning-light in your car, but never pulling the dip stick! Oh, and if a customer ever threw a punch at me, he would not have to pay for the pack job. He would not have to pay me for his next reserve repack either, because I would have nothing more to do with him And not other packer - who observed the altercation - would have anything more to do with him. That violent a##hole would quickly find himself alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #31 July 19, 2004 I couldn't answer the poll because we don't know whether or not the PC was cocked. I'm in agreement with others that professional packers need to be held to riggers (or just a higher) standard when packing a main. They are acting as professionals and there are FAA reg's for them to adhere to. The packer and the jumper should both have checked the rig on the ground. Even if the jumper is supposed to cock the PC before turning it over to the packer the packer should check the PC because it is part of the overall packjob. IMO if a mal is possibly due to packer error then a professional packer with good business sense bites the bullet pays for the reserve re-pack and doesn't charge for the packjob. The jumpticket is the jumpers problem, pay your dime take your chance. Fighting... No excuses for the instigator, atleast a temporary banishment from the DZ and as for the other participant, that has to be closely looked at... You have the right to defend yourself from attack, but if they were partially responsible for the escalation from argument to fight then there should be disciplinary action on their part. Somebody said that only defensive actions should be allowed if attacked... Bullshit! In a fight there is only the fight, there is no halfway, disable your opponent anyway you can, hopefully without killing'em. That being said let me say that there are almost always ways to avoid a fight.... Defuse the situation ASAP, walk away ect... ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #32 July 19, 2004 This is another case of the jumper being at fault by not checking his gear. I agree with JP, good riddance of this asshat. Remember to tip your packers, people. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #33 July 19, 2004 QuoteI couldn't answer the poll because we don't know whether or not the PC was cocked. After examination on the ground it was discovered the jumper was in error. The P/C was cocked and the edge of the coloring was visible.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #34 July 19, 2004 Quoteeven though we, as customers are supposed to cock it before delivery to him). ----------------------------------------------------------- You're kidding, right? As far as I'm concerned, if I pay you to pack my rig, you pack my rig.When did cocking the pilot chute become my job? I've spent my fair share of time on the matt, and never once asked anyone to cock their own pilot chute.If you do it first you're out of sequence anyway. I always appreciated if people would stow brakes and slider, but it was not expected, as they were paying for a service.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packerboy 3 #35 July 19, 2004 I have packed many rigs that do not necessarily show colour in the window. I always feel comfortable that I didn't forget to cock the pilot chute because it would be very hard to get the canopy in the D-bag and not notice 2 ft of bridle go in there with it. Also, that is the first thing that I do with a packjob, and the last thing that I check before packing the PC. That being said, if I pack a rig and don't see colour I make sure that I tell the jumper.. "Listen man, you don't see colour on your bridle, but I assure you that I cocked the PC." If the jumper doesn't like that than I will pull out the bridle and show them that the colour is just shy of the window, or even go as far as pulling out the PC and tossing it in the air. To answer the poll.. if the PC was cocked the packer should be paid. If it wasn't, than the packer should pay for the jump ticket. If I was the packer and someone was bitching about $40 (approx.) for a ticket and a packjob I would give them the $40 and tell them to fuck off and get off their lazy ass and start packing for themselves. Edited to say: Fighting... come on... if people are immature enough to resort to fighting, than they deserve a punch in the face. Which is what they are going to get. So by all means do it up! But make sure you are ready to take a time out to stand in the corner and think about what you have done. No play time for you today.. dumbass! Take it outside though, blood on the packing floor is bad for business. I can run faster scared than anyone can mad. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChileRelleno 0 #36 July 19, 2004 Oops, missed that. In that case I vote a big fat YES! The fault now lies wholly with the jumper, and the person who did his pincheck wasn't too swift either. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #37 July 19, 2004 QuoteAs far at the day this incident occurred...it was today (Sunday) Laurie, I want some of what ever time altering drug you have. This happened on Saturday night. Did you sleep a whole day away?Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #38 July 19, 2004 Quotethe packer and the jumper should buy the ticket...Neither should resort to this kind of behavior...its just stupid... From the way it went down. The jumper should have been kicked off the dropzone. When this guy got on the ground he went over and started having words with the packer. Then he started shoving and pushing. Their comes a point when it is self defense. This jumper was way out of line. The kicker is. The damn PC was cocked! IT was shown to him (the jumpe) that it was cocked. The color on the kill line had flipped under. It was fine. This jumper is new and doesn't pack for him self ever. Probably doesn't. Really know how to do it. Another reason that new jumpers should pack for themselves. He would have learned already that half the damn kill lines you seee don't have any color on them andymore. People either packed it themselves and know that they cocked it or they check it on the ground. I am not telling anyone to do this, but I have even jumped knowing that my PC wasn't cocked. It opend just fine. Good strong throw on the pull and right to the handles just in case.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #39 July 19, 2004 this is the reason i always try (always do slider and brakes) to cock the pilot chute, set brakes and unstow the slider myself..these tasks take less than a minute, and i've never been in that much of a hurry.. I pay the packer for the more annoying parts of packing, i do expect him/her to check the things i set (and have had packers catch me setting the brakes incorrectly before) but i like to do the things that are most immediately cause for concern myself... i'd have paid him, but then i check my gear on the ground before putting it on too.....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #40 July 19, 2004 QuoteIf it wasn't, than the packer should pay for the jump ticket. Even if it hadn't been cocked, you're supposed to check your gear before you get on the plane. It's the jumper's fault for getting on that plane without taking 2 seconds to check the kill line window. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tfelber 0 #41 July 19, 2004 So was the PC cocked or not??? It would have been very simple to check. And, I don't mean look at the window. If it wasn't cocked I assure you I, at a minimum, would NOT go back to that packer!!! If it was cocked and you just couldn't see the marking in the window and I felt safer riding down in the plane, that was my decision. Either way no reason to fight but I would have had a discussion about the cost of the pack job. However, it is only $5. Let's be realistic here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #42 July 19, 2004 I have seen many of the packers at Spaceland refuse payment after a mal even when they knew it wasn't their fault. Personally, I wouldn't refuse to pay a packer because sometimes shit just happens. I've had very hard openings from a Triathalon and a Sabre 2, one of which left me with a fractured & herniated back and kept me from jumping for 5 months. No apparent reason for the openings and probably nothing the packer did differently. After the Sabre 2 slammer, I took a week off from jumping and then went to Rantoul. Bought a 10-pack of packing tickets from Packin' Kathy who I had met at Eloy during the 300 way. After the 3rd jump, I knew something was really wrong because I couldn't walk, stand, sleep, etc. Trent or Stevie took my unused tickets back to Kathy and she refunded the full amount even though I only wanted to return the 7 unused tickets and after being told the injury happened prior to WFFC. I will definitely have Kathy pack for me at any boogie she works. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #43 July 19, 2004 Quote So was the PC cocked or not??? Yes the pilot chute was cocked.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tfelber 0 #44 July 19, 2004 Well, it sounds like it was packed correctly to me... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GravityGirl 0 #45 July 19, 2004 The jumper is a dumb ass for not gear checking his rig before he put it on his back. It is not the rest of the worlds responsibility to keep you safe, it's yours. Even if you are paying for a pack job. Your own mortality is much better motivation than $5 to ensure safe gear. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites daveb 1 #46 July 19, 2004 Did the packer pack the parachute? Pay him. Once you've asked someone to do something for you, you've accepted full responsibility for the outcome. Don't trust the packer? Pack yourself or use someone else. Don't like the opening? Pack yourself or use someone else. Don't believe in gear checks on the ground or aircraft? Live or die with the consequences. BTW, I check my gear before I don it (even on a back-to-back, and I'm running for the aircraft), sometimes in full view of my packer. He sees me do it, and told me he really likes it when I do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chrisky 0 #47 July 19, 2004 QuoteYou're kidding, right? As far as I'm concerned, if I pay you to pack my rig, you pack my rig.When did cocking the pilot chute become my job? I've only used packer services like three times ever, but i ALWAYS set the brakes, slider and cocked the PC. I figured that was standard practice due to the packer being less prone to overlook something if a rig doesn't fit the standard setup. Takes like 20 seconds and i know the gear specific points of my gear setup are covered. The "work" part is hardly setting brakes, slider and PC. If a packer is really really busy and gets a ton of different rigs, it is me who feels more confident knowing i did these crucial parts myself. I pay the packer for getting that slippery ball of quite new Zero-P into that still stiff little dbag thingy. My two cents.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #48 July 19, 2004 Quotebut I'd fire their reserve for fucking sure. If they want to box after that - I'm game. I would say that is a "high school" way to handle the situation. Pulling someones reserve is not a smart thing to do. Do you think that would help the situation or just make a bigger problem?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meathorse 0 #49 July 19, 2004 QuoteThere are other ways to see if a pilot chute is cocked, so the packer may not have bothered to check the window even though he knew the pilot chute was cocked. There are other ways?... after the main's been packed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites laurie 0 #50 July 19, 2004 hey, it's Lori that started this thread...not me And I know it was Saturday, it happened right as I was leaving! 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packerboy 3 #35 July 19, 2004 I have packed many rigs that do not necessarily show colour in the window. I always feel comfortable that I didn't forget to cock the pilot chute because it would be very hard to get the canopy in the D-bag and not notice 2 ft of bridle go in there with it. Also, that is the first thing that I do with a packjob, and the last thing that I check before packing the PC. That being said, if I pack a rig and don't see colour I make sure that I tell the jumper.. "Listen man, you don't see colour on your bridle, but I assure you that I cocked the PC." If the jumper doesn't like that than I will pull out the bridle and show them that the colour is just shy of the window, or even go as far as pulling out the PC and tossing it in the air. To answer the poll.. if the PC was cocked the packer should be paid. If it wasn't, than the packer should pay for the jump ticket. If I was the packer and someone was bitching about $40 (approx.) for a ticket and a packjob I would give them the $40 and tell them to fuck off and get off their lazy ass and start packing for themselves. Edited to say: Fighting... come on... if people are immature enough to resort to fighting, than they deserve a punch in the face. Which is what they are going to get. So by all means do it up! But make sure you are ready to take a time out to stand in the corner and think about what you have done. No play time for you today.. dumbass! Take it outside though, blood on the packing floor is bad for business. I can run faster scared than anyone can mad. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #36 July 19, 2004 Oops, missed that. In that case I vote a big fat YES! The fault now lies wholly with the jumper, and the person who did his pincheck wasn't too swift either. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #37 July 19, 2004 QuoteAs far at the day this incident occurred...it was today (Sunday) Laurie, I want some of what ever time altering drug you have. This happened on Saturday night. Did you sleep a whole day away?Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #38 July 19, 2004 Quotethe packer and the jumper should buy the ticket...Neither should resort to this kind of behavior...its just stupid... From the way it went down. The jumper should have been kicked off the dropzone. When this guy got on the ground he went over and started having words with the packer. Then he started shoving and pushing. Their comes a point when it is self defense. This jumper was way out of line. The kicker is. The damn PC was cocked! IT was shown to him (the jumpe) that it was cocked. The color on the kill line had flipped under. It was fine. This jumper is new and doesn't pack for him self ever. Probably doesn't. Really know how to do it. Another reason that new jumpers should pack for themselves. He would have learned already that half the damn kill lines you seee don't have any color on them andymore. People either packed it themselves and know that they cocked it or they check it on the ground. I am not telling anyone to do this, but I have even jumped knowing that my PC wasn't cocked. It opend just fine. Good strong throw on the pull and right to the handles just in case.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #39 July 19, 2004 this is the reason i always try (always do slider and brakes) to cock the pilot chute, set brakes and unstow the slider myself..these tasks take less than a minute, and i've never been in that much of a hurry.. I pay the packer for the more annoying parts of packing, i do expect him/her to check the things i set (and have had packers catch me setting the brakes incorrectly before) but i like to do the things that are most immediately cause for concern myself... i'd have paid him, but then i check my gear on the ground before putting it on too.....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #40 July 19, 2004 QuoteIf it wasn't, than the packer should pay for the jump ticket. Even if it hadn't been cocked, you're supposed to check your gear before you get on the plane. It's the jumper's fault for getting on that plane without taking 2 seconds to check the kill line window. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #41 July 19, 2004 So was the PC cocked or not??? It would have been very simple to check. And, I don't mean look at the window. If it wasn't cocked I assure you I, at a minimum, would NOT go back to that packer!!! If it was cocked and you just couldn't see the marking in the window and I felt safer riding down in the plane, that was my decision. Either way no reason to fight but I would have had a discussion about the cost of the pack job. However, it is only $5. Let's be realistic here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #42 July 19, 2004 I have seen many of the packers at Spaceland refuse payment after a mal even when they knew it wasn't their fault. Personally, I wouldn't refuse to pay a packer because sometimes shit just happens. I've had very hard openings from a Triathalon and a Sabre 2, one of which left me with a fractured & herniated back and kept me from jumping for 5 months. No apparent reason for the openings and probably nothing the packer did differently. After the Sabre 2 slammer, I took a week off from jumping and then went to Rantoul. Bought a 10-pack of packing tickets from Packin' Kathy who I had met at Eloy during the 300 way. After the 3rd jump, I knew something was really wrong because I couldn't walk, stand, sleep, etc. Trent or Stevie took my unused tickets back to Kathy and she refunded the full amount even though I only wanted to return the 7 unused tickets and after being told the injury happened prior to WFFC. I will definitely have Kathy pack for me at any boogie she works. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #43 July 19, 2004 Quote So was the PC cocked or not??? Yes the pilot chute was cocked.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #44 July 19, 2004 Well, it sounds like it was packed correctly to me... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #45 July 19, 2004 The jumper is a dumb ass for not gear checking his rig before he put it on his back. It is not the rest of the worlds responsibility to keep you safe, it's yours. Even if you are paying for a pack job. Your own mortality is much better motivation than $5 to ensure safe gear. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #46 July 19, 2004 Did the packer pack the parachute? Pay him. Once you've asked someone to do something for you, you've accepted full responsibility for the outcome. Don't trust the packer? Pack yourself or use someone else. Don't like the opening? Pack yourself or use someone else. Don't believe in gear checks on the ground or aircraft? Live or die with the consequences. BTW, I check my gear before I don it (even on a back-to-back, and I'm running for the aircraft), sometimes in full view of my packer. He sees me do it, and told me he really likes it when I do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #47 July 19, 2004 QuoteYou're kidding, right? As far as I'm concerned, if I pay you to pack my rig, you pack my rig.When did cocking the pilot chute become my job? I've only used packer services like three times ever, but i ALWAYS set the brakes, slider and cocked the PC. I figured that was standard practice due to the packer being less prone to overlook something if a rig doesn't fit the standard setup. Takes like 20 seconds and i know the gear specific points of my gear setup are covered. The "work" part is hardly setting brakes, slider and PC. If a packer is really really busy and gets a ton of different rigs, it is me who feels more confident knowing i did these crucial parts myself. I pay the packer for getting that slippery ball of quite new Zero-P into that still stiff little dbag thingy. My two cents.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #48 July 19, 2004 Quotebut I'd fire their reserve for fucking sure. If they want to box after that - I'm game. I would say that is a "high school" way to handle the situation. Pulling someones reserve is not a smart thing to do. Do you think that would help the situation or just make a bigger problem?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meathorse 0 #49 July 19, 2004 QuoteThere are other ways to see if a pilot chute is cocked, so the packer may not have bothered to check the window even though he knew the pilot chute was cocked. There are other ways?... after the main's been packed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
laurie 0 #50 July 19, 2004 hey, it's Lori that started this thread...not me And I know it was Saturday, it happened right as I was leaving! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
