mjosparky 3 #76 July 20, 2004 QuoteI don't work for the diplomatic corps. You don't have to work for the UN to know enough to keep your hands off another jumpers rig. There is never justification pull reserve, never. In my opinion if it happened the one doing the pulling should be the one to go away.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #77 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteI don't work for the diplomatic corps. You don't have to work for the UN to know enough to keep your hands off another jumpers rig. There is never justification pull reserve, never. In my opinion if it happened the one doing the pulling should be the one to go away. I kinda agree but there have been cases its been real tempting. So how do you feel about a DZ that has a sign up that says "No Hook Turns or XXX will own your silver handle". I've seen it at a DZ. I haven't been there in a few years so I don't know if it is still there and I never saw XXX pull anyone's handle. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #78 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteI don't work for the diplomatic corps. You don't have to work for the UN to know enough to keep your hands off another jumpers rig. There is never justification pull reserve, never. In my opinion if it happened the one doing the pulling should be the one to go away. I kinda agree but there have been cases its been real tempting. So how do you feel about a DZ that has a sign up that says "No Hook Turns or XXX will own your silver handle". I've seen it at a DZ. I haven't been there in a few years so I don't know if it is still there and I never saw XXX pull anyone's handle. Judy Read my response above, never, never. Who ever XXX is, he is wrong. Thats like saying no U turns. If someone does a U turn you cut his tires. Sparky And I agree with you, there have been times when it was very tempting.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #79 July 20, 2004 QuoteThe jumper is a dumb ass for not gear checking his rig before he put it on his back. It is not the rest of the worlds responsibility to keep you safe, it's yours. Even if you are paying for a pack job. Your own mortality is much better motivation than $5 to ensure safe gear. What you said7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #80 July 21, 2004 it happened to me once, but I was watching the guy pack my rig and saw him extend the kill line. I later after manifest (5 minutes and rig not outta my site) did a gear chck and did not see any color but pulled it down approx 1/8" and could see it. If I didnt see the packer pull the pilot I would have taken a plane ride down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #81 July 21, 2004 I know what you're saying, but my comments were simply based on what common tort law would do with the situation. I was just surmising what would have happened if this had ended up in a court room as people had already made the "product fit for purpose" analogy. FAA rules are not law. The court will recognise them as the regulations under which the sport must be conducted but they are not laws under which people can be sued. The fact that there is an FAA rule mandating that colour must be visible in the window is a compelling argument for saying ONLY that is reasonable when packing. BUT the fact that this is often ignored is also a compelling argument for saying that only just in the window (or even perhaps only just outside of the window) is packing with [I]reasonable[/I] skill. If you see a post above there was in fact colour visible in the window… but only just. Remember the law will rarely impose perfection on people – it recognises that people are not perfect. The law usually only imposes “reasonable care under the circumstances”. The fact that parachuting is potentially fatal and that there exists FAA rules to govern this question are circumstances to take into account in deciding what is "reasonable" but a packer is still only required by the law to exercise reasonable not perfect skill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverinpa 0 #82 July 21, 2004 everyone has had there color indicator move out of sight at least once for those that check and for the people who have not checked i guess you will never know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #83 July 21, 2004 First of all, a packer is basically cleaning up the mess the jumper has left on the floor. Whether the jumper actually jumps the packed rig is arbitrary, moot and beside the point. What about if you pay a packer then sell the packed rig? What if, after paying for a main pack job, the reserve repack cycle comes due and the rigger takes the main out of the container. What do you do? Renegotiate for partial main pack jobs? And who says that any pack job must be jumped? The opening of the main is not what the packer is being paid for. That's gravy and is part of the relationship between packer and customer. But the general purpose of packing is to neaten the mess that the lazy ignorant jumper can't handle. What are the odds that the person here who rode the plane down cannot even pack? And as for having a malfunction, that's the sole property of the skydiver experiencing that particular thrill. If you can guarantee that every malfunction is the result of the pack job, may I suggest remedial instruction, a new sport or some dead serious reindoctrination to reality. Second, the dye on the kill line can fade, not be visible at all and is generally a back up indicator and not a promise. And you can cock a pilot chute even after the container is closed. So riding down a plane is essentially proving a degree of ignorance - and ignorance is never a good jump partner. Third. I'd watch out for this yobo because unless and until he gets a clue, this perspective and this behavior will only lead eventually to someone else getting hurt. So,yeah, this packer should be paid. And from the sound of it, 5 bucks won't quite cover it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #84 July 21, 2004 Interesting results so far. 140 yes:40 no. My opinion is that the packer should be paid. The rig was jumpable and the skydiver should have checked his rig on the ground before boarding. As the saying goes, "Trust, but verify". At our DZ our packers are -very- busy and it's common practice for us to set our own brakes, unstow the slider, and cock the pc. Our packers are also good enough to catch something that might be amiss too. The packer I use is a rigger and has actually caught a few repairs that needed to be done...something that hadn't caught my eye (yet). I have a great respect for packers and know that they realize their reputation is on the line everytime they send one of their pack jobs into the sky. Often they watch to see the openings of their pack jobs (when they have time). They are also open to feedback if something needs to be tweeked. For instance...I have a 2 Spectre canopies (loaded a 1:1.45). For me (a cameraflyer) these particular canopies open too fast! My packer adjusts and gives me such nice snively openings that I learned from him how to adjust my own pack jobs. And it works. If you use a packer (and I only do on training days), sit down and chat with him/her. You might learn alot! ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #85 July 21, 2004 QuoteInteresting results so far. 140 yes:40 no. It would also be interesting to see what the results would be if the kill-line was not cocked. I'm guessing it would be 50/50.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanofOZ 0 #86 July 21, 2004 I voted yes, but if the kill line was not cocked, I would say hell no. It is the jumpers responsibility for the condition of the gear in the end, yes. However if a paid packer missed that, he should pay for the pack, and the ticket. I agree with tombuch on this, packers should be delivering near rigger quality work.Oz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #87 July 21, 2004 I'm not responding to anyone in particular, just the belief many seem to hold that it's OK for a packer to do a sloppy job on gear not used for working/team jumps. This is not even in reference to this particular mishap, because I take the side of the packer. The opinion is that people who are too lazy to pack their own gear get what they deserve. The underlying concept is that if you don't pack it yourself then you can't blame another person for a malfunction. That is correct, because errors do occur. But this is not permission for negligence. The only time that I expect more errors is when I ask a packer to trash pack it so I can make a loading call. Otherwise, this a person who usually pulls in more than the DZO. I expect a professionally done product. I don't expect something as good as a reserve, but I do expect better work than if I do it myself. Have standards really gotten this low? Is it really OK that a substandard job could put you on your reserve, or even worse? This direction seems to be coming mostly from jumpers, not packers. Packers who I know and use have higher standards. Ask a packer if it's OK to go sloppy on a fun jumper's gear. They'll either be insulted or will think you're joking. In this instance, if I had looked at the window on the ground and the colored strip were not visible then I would take it back to the packer. If we discovered that the strip had slid a little, then no problem, but they should have seen it before giving it to me. It's staring them in the face. If the PC weren't cocked...I'd take issue with that. I wouldn't feel comfortable with their work and wouldn't use them anymore. They just made an error that could have cost me a lot, luckily it was one that was visible."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aggie04 0 #88 July 21, 2004 Quote Ask a packer if it's OK to go sloppy on a fun jumper's gear. They'll either be insulted or will think you're joking. ...If we discovered that the strip had slid a little, then no problem, but they should have seen it before giving it to me. It's staring them in the face. I am a newer packer...just started a couple of months ago and i am 11 jumps away from my A. I completely agree with you. I would never say it is okay to be sloppy on anyones pack job. I always do my best to have a "neat" pack job but everyone who lets me pack also knows i am new. Also when you close the containter the strip IS right in front of you, i know i always check this before putting the pilot chute in and after because i always check the pin position. I agree that the packer should catch it if the color is not showing. I also always check with the person i am packing for to see what color i should see because some dont show and if it doesnt show i ask them if they would like to check it before i finish the job. I have packed one step through so far and i did not charge the guy i packed it for. Personal preference though, he doesnt even know i didnt charge him. I just didn't feel right taking money for something i did not do right. So yes, i think this packer should have been offered the money, whether or not he would take it is up to him. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A life without a cause is a life without an effect Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyangel2 2 #89 July 21, 2004 Wow! I'm not going to read all the post, so I'm sorry if it's been said already. When I do use a packer on occasion, I set my brakes, cock the pilot chute, and check and replace any rubber bands that are about to break. The jumper should have checked his gear before he put it on his back.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JayFitz164 0 #90 July 21, 2004 Who won the fight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #91 July 21, 2004 The jumper should have checked that himself on the ground. Yes, the packer should be paid. Although i'm sure there may be a few, I cannot see any reason NOT to pay your packer. If you choose to use a packer, you should pay them regardless of things like this, imo. These are the chances you take, and you should check your gear on the ground, anyhow. jmo. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #92 July 21, 2004 QuoteIt would also be interesting to see what the results would be if the kill-line was not cocked. I'm guessing it would be 50/50. I would hope more than 50% would vote that he/she should not get paid. I don't use packers I understand that's it my duty to check my gear. Having said that, if I used a packer and found that he/she had not cocked my PC.. I'm sorry, I ain't paying... 'tis a pretty important step in the packing process. You know what? I have a hard time paying for a steak that arrives raw at my table... cooking it is an important step. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #93 July 21, 2004 QuoteThat is correct, because errors do occur. But this is not permission for negligence. QuoteI don't expect something as good as a reserve, but I do expect better work than if I do it myself. Errors do occur, but not in parachute packing. It is not the same as tuning up a car or painting a house. You may not "expect something as good as a reserve" but the FAA does and says so in writing. If a person is going to seek the position of "packer", they must understand the importance of what they are doing and be willing to accept the responsibility of doing it right. Packers can make $30 an hour or more, with very little training and only a pull cord for equipment. Thats not bad money. But with it comes the awesome burden of near perfection. Their screw up could be the first link in a chain of events that leads to a fatality. Its the attention to detail that will make them or break them.(or someone else) SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ladyskydiver 0 #94 July 21, 2004 QuoteHaving said that, if I used a packer and found that he/she had not cocked my PC.. I'm sorry, I ain't paying... 'tis a pretty important step in the packing process. It's been mentioned previously in the thread, the PC was cocked.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #95 July 21, 2004 I'm pretty surprised the packer wanted to be paid for his mistake. I'm not a packer but it seems to me if I packed someones rig and they had to waste a jump ticket and ride the plane down because I wasn't careful when I cocked the PC, I owe them a packjob. Yeah, the jumper should have checked the kill line before putting the rig on. But I don't see why we shouldn't expect a certain level of service from a paid packer. If my rigger didn't properly pack my reserve and I only caught the problem during a reserve pincheck on the plane, I wouldn't jump and I'd expect my rigger to fix the problem for free, even if it means redoing the whole packjob. I wouldn't expect my money to be returned for the reserve repack of course, and I wouldn't expect my rigger to pay for my lost jump ticket. I'd say in this case, either returning the money or giving a free packjob later would be the right thing for the packer to do. BUT, it would be up to the packer. I don't think this is about what the jumper should or shouldnt have done. It's about what the packer should or shouldnt have done. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #96 July 21, 2004 Quote It's been mentioned previously in the thread, the PC was cocked. Oh I know it lady... See what I was replying to. He said the vote would prolly be more like 50/50 if the PC wasn't cocked... I'm saying I hope it wouldn't be because NOT cocking the PC is a pretty big deal in my books. I'm in agreement that this packer should be paid... and that the jumper didn't have to ride the plane down. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ladyskydiver 0 #97 July 21, 2004 QuoteQuote It's been mentioned previously in the thread, the PC was cocked. Oh I know it lady... See what I was replying to. He said the vote would prolly be more like 50/50 if the PC wasn't cocked... I'm saying I hope it wouldn't be because NOT cocking the PC is a pretty big deal in my books. I'm in agreement that this packer should be paid... and that the jumper didn't have to ride the plane down. ah....k....my bad. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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flyangel2 2 #89 July 21, 2004 Wow! I'm not going to read all the post, so I'm sorry if it's been said already. When I do use a packer on occasion, I set my brakes, cock the pilot chute, and check and replace any rubber bands that are about to break. The jumper should have checked his gear before he put it on his back.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayFitz164 0 #90 July 21, 2004 Who won the fight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #91 July 21, 2004 The jumper should have checked that himself on the ground. Yes, the packer should be paid. Although i'm sure there may be a few, I cannot see any reason NOT to pay your packer. If you choose to use a packer, you should pay them regardless of things like this, imo. These are the chances you take, and you should check your gear on the ground, anyhow. jmo. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #92 July 21, 2004 QuoteIt would also be interesting to see what the results would be if the kill-line was not cocked. I'm guessing it would be 50/50. I would hope more than 50% would vote that he/she should not get paid. I don't use packers I understand that's it my duty to check my gear. Having said that, if I used a packer and found that he/she had not cocked my PC.. I'm sorry, I ain't paying... 'tis a pretty important step in the packing process. You know what? I have a hard time paying for a steak that arrives raw at my table... cooking it is an important step. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #93 July 21, 2004 QuoteThat is correct, because errors do occur. But this is not permission for negligence. QuoteI don't expect something as good as a reserve, but I do expect better work than if I do it myself. Errors do occur, but not in parachute packing. It is not the same as tuning up a car or painting a house. You may not "expect something as good as a reserve" but the FAA does and says so in writing. If a person is going to seek the position of "packer", they must understand the importance of what they are doing and be willing to accept the responsibility of doing it right. Packers can make $30 an hour or more, with very little training and only a pull cord for equipment. Thats not bad money. But with it comes the awesome burden of near perfection. Their screw up could be the first link in a chain of events that leads to a fatality. Its the attention to detail that will make them or break them.(or someone else) SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #94 July 21, 2004 QuoteHaving said that, if I used a packer and found that he/she had not cocked my PC.. I'm sorry, I ain't paying... 'tis a pretty important step in the packing process. It's been mentioned previously in the thread, the PC was cocked.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #95 July 21, 2004 I'm pretty surprised the packer wanted to be paid for his mistake. I'm not a packer but it seems to me if I packed someones rig and they had to waste a jump ticket and ride the plane down because I wasn't careful when I cocked the PC, I owe them a packjob. Yeah, the jumper should have checked the kill line before putting the rig on. But I don't see why we shouldn't expect a certain level of service from a paid packer. If my rigger didn't properly pack my reserve and I only caught the problem during a reserve pincheck on the plane, I wouldn't jump and I'd expect my rigger to fix the problem for free, even if it means redoing the whole packjob. I wouldn't expect my money to be returned for the reserve repack of course, and I wouldn't expect my rigger to pay for my lost jump ticket. I'd say in this case, either returning the money or giving a free packjob later would be the right thing for the packer to do. BUT, it would be up to the packer. I don't think this is about what the jumper should or shouldnt have done. It's about what the packer should or shouldnt have done. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #96 July 21, 2004 Quote It's been mentioned previously in the thread, the PC was cocked. Oh I know it lady... See what I was replying to. He said the vote would prolly be more like 50/50 if the PC wasn't cocked... I'm saying I hope it wouldn't be because NOT cocking the PC is a pretty big deal in my books. I'm in agreement that this packer should be paid... and that the jumper didn't have to ride the plane down. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #97 July 21, 2004 QuoteQuote It's been mentioned previously in the thread, the PC was cocked. Oh I know it lady... See what I was replying to. He said the vote would prolly be more like 50/50 if the PC wasn't cocked... I'm saying I hope it wouldn't be because NOT cocking the PC is a pretty big deal in my books. I'm in agreement that this packer should be paid... and that the jumper didn't have to ride the plane down. ah....k....my bad. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
