student FXC fire

[adrenalinejunki 0]

today at my drop zone the DZO's grilfreind was doing her 15 second delay on static line progression and lost track of altitude and dumped about the same time as her FXC fired. The instructor also did'nt dump until about 1500 or less.
I think this problem could be solved if all our freefall students had dytters. I know everyone says that a student should'nt have them because they get dependant on them, but at our dz and most others students are required to dump at no lower than 4k. If they had a dytter and it was set to go off at 3k then they would still have to learn to look at thier altimeter. I think this would solve the AAD fires that seem to be infecting our students. This is the 3rd time in about a year now. When I brought this idea up to the DZO today I was shot down just like I figured I would be. Myself, I think it is a great idea for all students to have a WAKE UP CALL at 3 grand when they still have time to pull with a lil altitude on thier side. What if an AAD fails? Would we have a fatality then?
I was just wondering what everyone else thinks about the idea. I know it has been thought of before and maybe being used at some dz's. I think letting a student have an audible set for 1000ft below thier deployment altitude would greatly improve thier safety. How could letting a student burn it down to the piont of deploying thier main and thier AAD firing and having 2 canopies out at such a low altitude be safer and "make a better and safer skydiver in the long run" than giving a wake up call 1000ft below thier deployment altitude?
I am really interested in what the rest of you think about it?

__________________________________________________

What's the worst that can happen?

[sundevil777 93]

I totally agree.

The only question is what altitude to set it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Daizey 0]

I think its a good idea....i had one as a student....I never relied on it...kinda thought of it as i think of my aad....as a great backup plan and tool...but not something I am going to rely on....

In addition to the student just losing altitude awareness....what if they are completely altitude aware but there is a problem with the their altimeter? There's been cases when they fail and dont read the correct altitude...so why not have a dytter as backup for such an occasion?

As for becoming reliant on it....i think a dytter can be compared to an aad in this case....I mean i dont think many students jump thinking, 'oh i dont have to pull, the aad will do it for me'. Students are taught to pull and taught that the aad is there as a backup....if taught to always look at your altimeter and stay altitude aware and that the dytter is there as a backup I dont see much of a problem....

*daizey*

[lewmonst 0]

Quote

today at my drop zone the DZO's grilfreind was doing her 15 second delay on static line progression and lost track of altitude and dumped about the same time as her FXC fired. The instructor also did'nt dump until about 1500 or less.

Isn't a 15 second delay supposed to be a solo?
Why did the instructor go so low? If an instructor was on the jump, than was it an AFF or coach jump, from a low altitude? This doesn't make sense.

http://www.exitshot.com

[bch7773 0]

Quote

Isn't a 15 second delay supposed to be a solo?
Why did the instructor go so low? If an instructor was on the jump, than was it an AFF or coach jump, from a low altitude? This doesn't make sense.

at some DZs, the coach goes out with the student on 15s, and sometimes not. it also depends on how the student is doing, if they having problems on their 15s, etc.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[D22369 0]

Isn't a 15 second delay supposed to be a solo?

Quote

Not neccessarily, its at the discretion of the Instructor, I have gone out the door with many 15 sec students (no grips) to observe/instruct/and video them--> video is an awsome tool !!!


Why did the instructor go so low?

He screwed the pooch and broke the hard deck, Its noble and heroic to pursue a student into the basement, but can be quite fatal..... to both the student and the instructor if he was out of postion (over top) when the AAD fired....

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[kelpdiver 2]

Given the number of things that appeared to go wrong with this jump, I'm not confident that adding another piece of gear would have contributed much to this or safety in general. It instead represents another potential failure point, or a reliance point.

A S/L student who had never gone more than 10 seconds loses track of time in a 15 second jump? She went close to 30, no? And with all the 3500 HnPs done prior, don't you S/L types get a pretty good visual sense of the pull altitude?

What happened that distracted her so, and also prevented the instructor from pulling or signaling to her? Unstable exit, never recovered?

[thelem 0]

But static line students are often not very aware of what is happening in freefall - because they have so little experience of it. They will probably be looking for the horizon, but not know what it should look like at pull altitude. Remember a 10 second delay is probably the first time they have pulled belly to earth.

If it was her first 15 second delay, then she would be expecting it to take longer, easily up to 20 seconds just by inaccurate timing. A bit of instability could easily distract her for 10 seconds.

If it was her first pull-on-alti jump, then maybe she got obsessed looking at her alti and for some reason couldn't read it.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

Why did the instructor go so low? He screwed the pooch and broke the hard deck, Its noble and heroic to pursue a student into the basement, but can be quite fatal..... to both the student and the instructor if he was out of postion (over top) when the AAD fired....

Yep, by 3000 feet, if the student hasn't pulled, you'd be hard pressd to fly in and pull for them by a safe altitude. Better for the instructor to pull. Sometimes that will clue in the student that it's time to open the parachute. Thank goodness for AAD's.

[riggerrob 558]

I disagree.
Students should not be equipped with Dytters, because they go deaf when they get scared.
I have heard dozens of students complain that their radios mysteriously went silent at low altitudes.
They also suffer tunnel vision when they get scared.

Just yesterday, I was talking a first jump student down on the radio. His radio worked great until 50 feet, then mysteriously went silent. He claimed that I never say "flare, flare, flare."
Meanwhile the other student standing beside me heard me clearly. Radios worked perfectly for all the other eight students and they all flared when instructed to.

The instructor in the original post definitely "screwed the pooch." The best thing he could have done below 3,000 feet was open!
Chasing a student below the hard deck gives the student a false sense of security.
"If my instructor is still in freefall then every thing must still be okay."
Seeing the instructor open can be a "wake up" call to a student.

[JYorkster 0]

Quote

Its noble and heroic to pursue a student into the basement

I disagree even with this. Besides being fatal, as you pointed out, it can also be an indication that everything is still OK. An instructor opening his/her canopy is the strongest indication to the student that it is time to open. Unless you are pulling for them, staying with your student below the hard deck only increases their chances of NOT pulling.

As for 15 sec delays, there is no way to effectively judge a student's body position 2000 ft away from the airplane. I beliive the instructor should leave the plane on anything more than 10 sec delays.

Just my 2 cents,
Rock

[billvon 2,400]

> I think this problem could be solved if all our freefall students had dytters.

The primary objective during AFF is not to get a canopy open for the student; you can do that with a tandem or a SL. The objective is to train someone to be a safe skydiver, competent enough to freefall on his own (or with a coach.) That means they have to learn altitude awareness, based first on a visual altimeter (because it's the most common and reliable way to judge altitude besides your eyes) and second on visual cues. Training them to rely on an audible will hurt their altitude awareness.

That being said, if you set it to a lower altitude (i.e. 2500 feet) it might not be such a bad idea - _provided_ you have a means of determining where they pulled, so that you can fail them if they rely on the dytter instead of their own altimeter or their eyes (or their brain, which should be counting.)

>How could letting a student burn it down to the piont of deploying thier
> main and thier AAD firing and having 2 canopies out at such a low altitude
>be safer and "make a better and safer skydiver in the long run" than
>giving a wake up call 1000ft below thier deployment altitude?

A skydiver who has experience safely landing a 2-out is surely a safer skydiver than one who does _not_ have that experience, but I suspect that's not your point. A skydiver who does not need a dytter is safer than one who relies upon one. During the student program, they have an AAD. Imagine a student who graduates, gets a dytter (cause they are used to it) and a rig without an AAD (cause they're expensive) - and then has the batteries in their dytter go dead. Now they have a very big problem, one they may not have been prepared for in their student program if dytters were a part of it. Again, if there's a way to make sure they never rely on it (i.e. they fail any jump miserably if they do rely on it, and get sent back to PRCP's or something) then it might be OK.

[Daizey 0]

Quote

Again, if there's a way to make sure they never rely on it (i.e. they fail any jump miserably if they do rely on it, and get sent back to PRCP's or something) then it might be OK.

I completely agree with that....I was a student up until very recently...I always had a dytter, but the thought to rely on it never crossed my mind...I kinda forgot it was there....I think proper training definitely embedded that in my mind...also the fact that my instructor woulda probably kicked my butt on the ground if i became reliant on it

I think with proper training dytters are great for students...yes its one more thing that can fail but its also one more tool that can help if need be. I mean if we go with the reasoning of why give them an audible when they should be able to look at their altimeter and use visual methods then why give them an AAD? Along this line of reasoning you would be saying they should be reliant on there ability to pull, right? And yes this is true, but the AAD is there as a tool, as would be the dytter.....

perhaps not the best analogy....but thats kinda the way i compare it in my mind...

*daizey*

[sunshine 2]

Me thinks a student with a dytter will learn to rely on the sound. FXC fires aren't exactly a good thing, but the bottom line is the student fucked up here. Hearing a dytter maybe would've prevented the FXC fire, but so what? The student needs to learn altitude awareness, and a dytter from the start of student training will hinder that learning process.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[adrenalinejunki 0]

She was stable and had a minor turn but never went all the way around. She just lost track of altitude. The instructor was giving the pull now finger piont but when she got to the ground she said she did'nt know what it meant. I know for a fact that she had been told what the signal was but I suspect she thought it was a joke when she was told. She dumped her main when she saw the instructor dump and it was'nt in time to prevent her AAD from firing. He should have dumped at no lower then 3k but I geuss he wanted to get her to pull first. Her being his long term g/f may have had something to do with him chasing her down. Anyways it scared the crap out of me. I was the only one on the ground (slow day) and was watching from exit till landing. I just think that a dytter buzzing in her ear may have made her realize she should have dumped and passed her deployment altitude.

__________________________________________________

What's the worst that can happen?

[adrenalinejunki 0]

They would'nt rely on it if it was set to not make a peep until 1000ft below thier deployment altitude, and if they were taught that it was a back up device kinda in the same way as an AAD.


__________________________________________________

What's the worst that can happen?

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

I disagree.

The instructor in the original post definitely "screwed the pooch." The best thing he could have done below 3,000 feet was open!
Chasing a student below the hard deck gives the student a false sense of security.
"If my instructor is still in freefall then every thing must still be okay."
Seeing the instructor open can be a "wake up" call to a student.

Hi Riggerrob. I think you mean "I agree" with me. Read my post again. We pretty much say the same thing. I think you and I have both been in that situation before.

• Quote

[peek 20]

Please do not report an AAD accidental firing using only the manufacturer's name! Please include the model number.

This was an FXC what? Model 12000? Astra? Some military model?

P.S.

I find it interesting that AADs made by Guardian/FXC have long been refered to by their manufacturer name, but most other AADs by their model name or number.

Very unfair to Guardian/FXC.

[sunshine 2]

Quote

They would'nt rely on it if it was set to not make a peep until 1000ft below thier deployment altitude, and if they were taught that it was a back up device kinda in the same way as an AAD.

Dude, you posted your opinion, i posted mine. We disagree, deal with it.

I jump with a dytter, and i admit i lost track of altitude during a mal and avoided a cypres fire only because i heard my dytter flatline. Even with that experience i still don't think students should be jumping with them.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[markbaur 0]

Quote

They wouldn't rely on it if it was set to not make a peep until 1000 feet below their deployment altitude.

If this was an FXC 12000, then main canopy opening must be at least 1500 feet above the unit preset altitude, which in turn must be at least 1000 feet AGL. That is, the main canopy must be open at least 2500 feet AGL; higher if the unit is set to fire at a higher altitude. Pull altitude would have to be higher yet, to allow the main canopy time to open.

The FAA uses four seconds as the time for a pilot to recognize and react to a cockpit alarm or unexpected problem. Four seconds of freefall is about 800 feet.

What altitude were you thinking an audible would be set to so a novice would have time to recognize and react to it, without it going off at or above deployment altitude?

Mark

[D22369 0]

Its noble and heroic to pursue a student into the basement

I disagree even with this.***

I was saying that with a trace of sarcasm,,,,,,,I heard it in my brain but it didnt translate well I see.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[bigway 4]

i always thought ditters were essential, especially when it comes to learning freefall!
damn, how can you forget to pull when you got one bailing in your ear.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[billvon 2,400]

>damn, how can you forget to pull when you got one bailing in your ear.

When the batteries die, or when you get sensory overload, or when you get the loose helmet and it's riding two inches high. Now, add in the statement "you'll hear the dytter if you get too low" for reassurance, and you could easily have a student screwing around until either they go in or their AAD fires. "Hey, I never heard the dytter, so I figured I had a few more seconds to get stable."

[sunshine 2]

Quote

When the batteries die, or when you get sensory overload, or when you get the loose helmet and it's riding two inches high. Now, add in the statement "you'll hear the dytter if you get too low" for reassurance, and you could easily have a student screwing around until either they go in or their AAD fires. "Hey, I never heard the dytter, so I figured I had a few more seconds to get stable."

It's the sensory overload that worries me. If someone loses alti awareness, then hears this thing screaming in their ear. Will they pull immediately or will that screamin noise kinda freak them out and make them freeze up.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[pajarito 0]

Quote

It's the sensory overload that worries me. If someone loses alti awareness, then hears this thing screaming in their ear. Will they pull immediately or will that screamin noise kinda freak them out and make them freeze up.

If they've lost altitude awareness, they've probably already freaked out and maybe frozen up. I think it's better to do something rather than nothing in reference to whether you might startle them under canopy. That's just me...