Zenister 0 #26 March 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteI don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility. Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.Quote He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #27 March 7, 2004 QuoteI kicked myself for chopping something when all I had to do was unstow the other toggle, then I remembered what Scotty said. I also know of people who have gotten shit for chopping the same kind of mal, and I always wondered if the harassment I got after my 1st mal would make me hesitate, luckly that was the farthest thing from my mind. Luckily yes-- you did the right thing at the right time. A woman last year did not take the criticism so well and went in because of it. (I believe she had over 1000 jumps). While I cannot blame her decision on the people who gave her so much crap for her 1st cutaway (2 weeks prior, same problem), one cannot help but think that incidents like these might squash some of that Monday morning quarterbacking. I think the best that we can do for each other is to simply be supportive. If education is needed, so be it, but the presentation should reinforce that a jumper has made the right decision if they weren't comfortable with the condition of their canopy and they got rid of it. One can always suggest simple fixes and things to try next time (if there's altitude) without condemning someone for making it safely to the ground under a reserve. I apologize for the rant... for some reason, this macho attitude about riding problem canopies down and/or criticizing people who don't really gets my goat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 186 #28 March 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteI have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something.y The post was a definite brain-exerciser. And while Jan is one of the most qualified in our sport to comment on most any aspect of it, I don't understand how she can presume to know it was someone's "pride" that was the contributing factor to someone's bad decision. They are dead and they are the only one able to explain their actions or lack thereof. This is wild, broad speculation at best. While trying to figure out ways to make the sport safer for all of us, let's try to focus only on the things we know, not guesses or presumptions. Blue 111- Jeff I know what she's talking about, because I know people who barely survived who did exactly what she described. In the case of some people who did not survive, their stated and observed attitude before bouncing was entirely consistent with this observation, so it's a good call. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #29 March 7, 2004 QuoteWhile trying to figure out ways to make the sport safer for all of us, let's try to focus only on the things we know, not guesses or presumptions. Blue 111- Jeff During my time in school for my aviation degree we spent time doing accident investigation. And you know what? A big portion of that time was studying human factors (decision making) and how it led to accidents. It has EVERYTHING to do with accident investigation. And it is not speculation. You can interview friends, family, co-workers as to the state of mind and prior history of an accident pilot and you can see how these experiences led to their death. It is not speculation. It's not voodoo.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BigM 2 #30 March 7, 2004 Quote A woman last year did not take the criticism so well and went in because of it. Once again people, this is gross speculation at best, not anything resembling fact. Yet it is being presented as fact. I maintain that you can never know why someone did something in such situations, even if they had been in the same situation before. Each mal has it's own unique set of circumstances and presents itself to the jumper with it's own unique face. Let's not try to presume we know the inner workings of a deceased person's mind during the final moments as they fought for their lives. Blue 111- Jeff "When I die, I want to go like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lee03 0 #31 March 7, 2004 Who Lives and Who Dies???? simple really, if it's your time, you die, if it ain't your time, you live! who live and dies depends on who's time it is, or isn't.-------- To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities. --Nevil Shute, Slide Rule Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 0 #32 March 7, 2004 Quotesimple really, if it's your time, you die, if it ain't your time, you live! who live and dies depends on who's time it is, or isn't. That's a ridiculous answer. How do we access the fate calendar to know whether or not we should jump on a certain day? In the meantime, I guess we shouldn't even worry about being a safe skydiver, since we won't go in no matter what we do if it's not our time yet.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skip 0 #33 March 7, 2004 Quotesimple really, if it's your time, you die, if it ain't your time, you live! who live and dies depends on who's time it is, or isn't. I agree - this answer is just wrong. It speculates that there is nothign we can do as a skydivers to make our jumps safer and possibly save our ass in eye of a life threatining situation. .:skip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lee03 0 #34 March 7, 2004 Why is it a wrong answer? The question was, who lives and who dies? The question, itself, implys nothing about safety, being unsafe or anything else. My answer mearly point out that if it is your time, you are going to die, if not, you won't.-------- To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities. --Nevil Shute, Slide Rule Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #35 March 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility. Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.Quote He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions.... The reason he died is that he was severely chemically impaired - that is not in dispute. Everything else followed from that. And he'd not swooped the pond previously. Teaching people how to get out of the corner when they are jumping high is not the way. Getting them not to jump high in the first place is the solution. A lot of the fatalites we read about would have been prevented by the exercise of better judgement before exiting (or even boarding) the plane and better judgement at 1000ft. Concentrating efforts on how to extricate yourself from situations you shouldn't have been in in the first place is secondary, IMO.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #36 March 7, 2004 QuoteWhy is it a wrong answer? The question was, who lives and who dies? The question, itself, implys nothing about safety, being unsafe or anything else. My answer mearly point out that if it is your time, you are going to die, if not, you won't. forget about pedanticisms of what the initial question does/doesn't mean and study and think about what has been written by the author, it may well help you to save your life someday. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 0 #37 March 7, 2004 QuoteMy answer mearly point out that if it is your time, you are going to die, if not, you won't. Ok, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BETO74 0 #38 March 7, 2004 All I can think of is: we are gonna die sooner or later, better later than sooner and eventually we will fit in one of categories all of us. Why somebody leaves, I if I knew the answer, I enjoy reading your post .http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lee03 0 #39 March 7, 2004 Ok, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical? ------------------------------------------------------------ in essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion!-------- To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities. --Nevil Shute, Slide Rule Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #40 March 7, 2004 QuoteSince that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. A couple of years ago a pilot bailed out of a Polish Mig, since he thought it was going to crash. The Mig didn't crash but went on it's way with no-one at the stick. It flew over Germany and Holland, went into a shallow turn to the left and ended up in someone's bedroom near the belgium-french border. An 18 year old guy was taking a nap after dinner. He died in his bed, with the Mig on top of him. He should have gone skydiving? Another one. A guy jumps in France with a PC-type canopy and a chest mounted reserve. He is trained not to cut away but deploy the reserve next to the mal. The two canopies next to each other are unsteerable and he lands on a railroad track near the DZ. Not busy there, a train passes once every hour. The train that cathes him on landing is five minutes delayed at that time... He should have stayed in bed? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #41 March 7, 2004 Well, what's the point of even trying to be safe when skydiving then? I might as well get that Velocity 96. I mean, if it's my time it's my time regardless of what canopy I'm jumping. And now that I think about it, I could sure use the money I could get by selling my Cypres... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #42 March 7, 2004 I just posted the two as true*) examples of incredible chance. Chances I at least found so incredible that one is tempted to believe in fate. I can see why people do believe in (their) fate - doesn't mean I do believe in it also. If there is a fate for me, I don't know it yet so I might as well take every precaution to avoid it sneaking up on me in an untimely manner. Then again, I might be resembling the gardener from Isfahan, running away from death towards my appointment with him. *) The Mig in the bedroom - widely publicized, The french skydiver under the train - maybe some 'frunchy' out here that can corroborate? I did read it as an accident report ("Flash accident mortal") in La Ferte Gaucher in 1984(?) and the details about the train once per hour / five minutes late were told at the DZ... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #43 March 7, 2004 QuoteOk, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical? ------------------------------------------------------------ in essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion! dude not at all, please stay and discuss here. I totally hear what you are saying, but skydiving is dangerous enough as it is, and the risks are not associated to static factors. Sure we all have to go someday -and some things are beyond our control - but a lot IS within our control and there is much we can learn and think about to help us prolong the time we do have here. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #44 March 7, 2004 QuoteOnce again people, this is gross speculation at best, not anything resembling fact. Yet it is being presented as fact. I maintain that you can never know why someone did something in such situations, even if they had been in the same situation before. Each mal has it's own unique set of circumstances and presents itself to the jumper with it's own unique face. Let's not try to presume we know the inner workings of a deceased person's mind during the final moments as they fought for their lives. Blue 111- Jeff Granted, especially where you talk about not knowing what went on in a deceased person's head (but I don't think every mal is unique - I for one have seen repeaters, thats what you get from slow learning...However - as a rule of thumb - let's refrain from second guessing any one's decision to cut-away. It should always be something like: "You were in the pilots seat, you are here to tell the story, you survived and all the 'harm' - if any - is that we all took a healthy stroll through the fields looking for your freebag and your main... Though the exercise did us good, maybe next time release the other steering toggle also, pump a few times and see what happens - provided you have enough altitude" Even the blonde & female student (sorry ladies, true story, I don't get to choose them either) that chopped "because the slider wouldn't go up" deserved 'positive reinforcement' for making a decision in what she saw as a life threatening situation. (Of course we 'strongly encouraged her' to trade in the rest of the static-line course jumps for a tandem with one of us, but that is another story...) Psychology has in its nature as well as in its tradition an element of speculation which deserves scrutiny and criticism. Yet people that die skydiving do so more often than not through their own human error. Avoiding human errors then must be the focus of our attention if we want to make skydiving safer. We could say (and did more often than not in the past) "he or she screwed up and is dead now - all I have to do is not screw up, keep my cool and I'll be fine..." Some psychologist tell us that 'denial is a killer' Could it be that they are right? What is of interest of course is not so much what someone was thinking 'in the final moment' but what he was thinking just before that final moment, when he took a fatal turn and could have gone 'the other way'. We don't know that for a particular person in a particular incident. But we might find a pattern, something in general. I'm convinced that 'trying not to look stupid when skydiving' has caused people to do stupid things that killed them. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #45 March 7, 2004 Boxingrrl: QuoteI got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. I do not like to see someone chop if it is a fixable problem, but I like much less to see them do nothing! You will learn in time what is fixable and what is not, for now just take action like you have already. You landed under a fully functioning canopy, which is much better any day of the week than landing a less than functional canopy. The most important thing is to learn from your disappointments, maybe next time you'll not chop a brake unstowed, but doing something is better than doing nothing! You did good!Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpinjackflash 0 #46 March 7, 2004 I'm tellin ya, not all is right here.... Seriously not right. meIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skip 0 #47 March 8, 2004 QuoteWell, what's the point of even trying to be safe when skydiving then? I might as well get that Velocity 96. I mean, if it's my time it's my time regardless of what canopy I'm jumping. And now that I think about it, I could sure use the money I could get by selling my Cypres... Exactly – to take it further, if dying was all about fate we might as well just abolish any sort of skydiving training, be it tandem, static line, AFF (or any hybrid of) – and just throw people out for there first time solo, with no instructor – well because if it’s there time its there time. I just think education out weighs fate when jumping out of airplanes. .:skip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #48 March 8, 2004 QuoteHowever - as a rule of thumb - let's refrain from second guessing any one's decision to cut-away. It should always be something like: "You were in the pilots seat, you are here to tell the story, you survived and all the 'harm' - if any - is that we all took a healthy stroll through the fields looking for your freebag and your main... Though the exercise did us good, maybe next time release the other steering toggle also, pump a few times and see what happens - provided you have enough altitude" Thank You! This is what I've been trying to get at. Maybe I just haven't made myself clear enough previously. QuoteI'm convinced that 'trying not to look stupid when skydiving' has caused people to do stupid things that killed them. And this, too... speculation or not... there are things that the dead and injured can teach us. Whether we choose to listen or not is up to us. And, whether we care to contribute to a culture or attitude that contributes to it is up to us as individuals as well. Telling stories around the campfire is one thing... deriding or belittling a jumper for saving their own life is a whole 'nother matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #49 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteBoxingrrl: ***I got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. I do not like to see someone chop if it is a fixable problem, but I like much less to see them do nothing! You will learn in time what is fixable and what is not, for now just take action like you have already. You landed under a fully functioning canopy, which is much better any day of the week to landing a less than functional canopy. The most important thing is to learn from your disappointments, maybe next time you'll not chop a brake unstowed, but doing something is better than doing nothing! You did good! I think it was skycat who had these cutaways, not me, but I really appreciate your being supportive in this manner. That's exactly what I'd love to see more of-- and less of the "I woulda' rode that in. What a waste"skygod mentality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 0 #50 March 8, 2004 Quotein essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion! 1) Neither of us claimed this thread as ours or asked you not to be here. We simply disagreed with you. If disagreement equated to a request to leave the thread, most threads here would stop after about 2 posts. 2) For the last time, your logic is ridiculously flawed. By your logic, I will only die when it is my time. Therefore I can put a gun to my own head every night before I go to bed, pull the trigger, and I won't die until it's my time. I might shoot myself in the head every night for the next 60 years if that were true. The fact that you can point out "odd situations" where death was probable but didn't occur, or improbable but did occur, is not proof that timing is the ultimate, end-all cause of death. 3) I am finished with this line of thought, not because I feel I've been asked to leave, but because it's off topic, and so illogical it's pointless trying to argue anymore.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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boxingrrl 0 #27 March 7, 2004 QuoteI kicked myself for chopping something when all I had to do was unstow the other toggle, then I remembered what Scotty said. I also know of people who have gotten shit for chopping the same kind of mal, and I always wondered if the harassment I got after my 1st mal would make me hesitate, luckly that was the farthest thing from my mind. Luckily yes-- you did the right thing at the right time. A woman last year did not take the criticism so well and went in because of it. (I believe she had over 1000 jumps). While I cannot blame her decision on the people who gave her so much crap for her 1st cutaway (2 weeks prior, same problem), one cannot help but think that incidents like these might squash some of that Monday morning quarterbacking. I think the best that we can do for each other is to simply be supportive. If education is needed, so be it, but the presentation should reinforce that a jumper has made the right decision if they weren't comfortable with the condition of their canopy and they got rid of it. One can always suggest simple fixes and things to try next time (if there's altitude) without condemning someone for making it safely to the ground under a reserve. I apologize for the rant... for some reason, this macho attitude about riding problem canopies down and/or criticizing people who don't really gets my goat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #28 March 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteI have heard way too many stories and read too many fatalities about people that let their pride kill them while they tried to 'fix' something.y The post was a definite brain-exerciser. And while Jan is one of the most qualified in our sport to comment on most any aspect of it, I don't understand how she can presume to know it was someone's "pride" that was the contributing factor to someone's bad decision. They are dead and they are the only one able to explain their actions or lack thereof. This is wild, broad speculation at best. While trying to figure out ways to make the sport safer for all of us, let's try to focus only on the things we know, not guesses or presumptions. Blue 111- Jeff I know what she's talking about, because I know people who barely survived who did exactly what she described. In the case of some people who did not survive, their stated and observed attitude before bouncing was entirely consistent with this observation, so it's a good call. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #29 March 7, 2004 QuoteWhile trying to figure out ways to make the sport safer for all of us, let's try to focus only on the things we know, not guesses or presumptions. Blue 111- Jeff During my time in school for my aviation degree we spent time doing accident investigation. And you know what? A big portion of that time was studying human factors (decision making) and how it led to accidents. It has EVERYTHING to do with accident investigation. And it is not speculation. You can interview friends, family, co-workers as to the state of mind and prior history of an accident pilot and you can see how these experiences led to their death. It is not speculation. It's not voodoo.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigM 2 #30 March 7, 2004 Quote A woman last year did not take the criticism so well and went in because of it. Once again people, this is gross speculation at best, not anything resembling fact. Yet it is being presented as fact. I maintain that you can never know why someone did something in such situations, even if they had been in the same situation before. Each mal has it's own unique set of circumstances and presents itself to the jumper with it's own unique face. Let's not try to presume we know the inner workings of a deceased person's mind during the final moments as they fought for their lives. Blue 111- Jeff "When I die, I want to go like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee03 0 #31 March 7, 2004 Who Lives and Who Dies???? simple really, if it's your time, you die, if it ain't your time, you live! who live and dies depends on who's time it is, or isn't.-------- To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities. --Nevil Shute, Slide Rule Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #32 March 7, 2004 Quotesimple really, if it's your time, you die, if it ain't your time, you live! who live and dies depends on who's time it is, or isn't. That's a ridiculous answer. How do we access the fate calendar to know whether or not we should jump on a certain day? In the meantime, I guess we shouldn't even worry about being a safe skydiver, since we won't go in no matter what we do if it's not our time yet.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skip 0 #33 March 7, 2004 Quotesimple really, if it's your time, you die, if it ain't your time, you live! who live and dies depends on who's time it is, or isn't. I agree - this answer is just wrong. It speculates that there is nothign we can do as a skydivers to make our jumps safer and possibly save our ass in eye of a life threatining situation. .:skip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee03 0 #34 March 7, 2004 Why is it a wrong answer? The question was, who lives and who dies? The question, itself, implys nothing about safety, being unsafe or anything else. My answer mearly point out that if it is your time, you are going to die, if not, you won't.-------- To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities. --Nevil Shute, Slide Rule Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #35 March 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI don't see how the guy who died swooping the pond when high fits any of these categories, except maybe insufficient humility. Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere.Quote He had so many chemicals in his bloodstream the only thing "elsewhere" was his mind. I don't think course correction was an option. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions.... The reason he died is that he was severely chemically impaired - that is not in dispute. Everything else followed from that. And he'd not swooped the pond previously. Teaching people how to get out of the corner when they are jumping high is not the way. Getting them not to jump high in the first place is the solution. A lot of the fatalites we read about would have been prevented by the exercise of better judgement before exiting (or even boarding) the plane and better judgement at 1000ft. Concentrating efforts on how to extricate yourself from situations you shouldn't have been in in the first place is secondary, IMO.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #36 March 7, 2004 QuoteWhy is it a wrong answer? The question was, who lives and who dies? The question, itself, implys nothing about safety, being unsafe or anything else. My answer mearly point out that if it is your time, you are going to die, if not, you won't. forget about pedanticisms of what the initial question does/doesn't mean and study and think about what has been written by the author, it may well help you to save your life someday. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 0 #37 March 7, 2004 QuoteMy answer mearly point out that if it is your time, you are going to die, if not, you won't. Ok, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BETO74 0 #38 March 7, 2004 All I can think of is: we are gonna die sooner or later, better later than sooner and eventually we will fit in one of categories all of us. Why somebody leaves, I if I knew the answer, I enjoy reading your post .http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lee03 0 #39 March 7, 2004 Ok, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical? ------------------------------------------------------------ in essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion!-------- To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities. --Nevil Shute, Slide Rule Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #40 March 7, 2004 QuoteSince that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. A couple of years ago a pilot bailed out of a Polish Mig, since he thought it was going to crash. The Mig didn't crash but went on it's way with no-one at the stick. It flew over Germany and Holland, went into a shallow turn to the left and ended up in someone's bedroom near the belgium-french border. An 18 year old guy was taking a nap after dinner. He died in his bed, with the Mig on top of him. He should have gone skydiving? Another one. A guy jumps in France with a PC-type canopy and a chest mounted reserve. He is trained not to cut away but deploy the reserve next to the mal. The two canopies next to each other are unsteerable and he lands on a railroad track near the DZ. Not busy there, a train passes once every hour. The train that cathes him on landing is five minutes delayed at that time... He should have stayed in bed? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #41 March 7, 2004 Well, what's the point of even trying to be safe when skydiving then? I might as well get that Velocity 96. I mean, if it's my time it's my time regardless of what canopy I'm jumping. And now that I think about it, I could sure use the money I could get by selling my Cypres... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #42 March 7, 2004 I just posted the two as true*) examples of incredible chance. Chances I at least found so incredible that one is tempted to believe in fate. I can see why people do believe in (their) fate - doesn't mean I do believe in it also. If there is a fate for me, I don't know it yet so I might as well take every precaution to avoid it sneaking up on me in an untimely manner. Then again, I might be resembling the gardener from Isfahan, running away from death towards my appointment with him. *) The Mig in the bedroom - widely publicized, The french skydiver under the train - maybe some 'frunchy' out here that can corroborate? I did read it as an accident report ("Flash accident mortal") in La Ferte Gaucher in 1984(?) and the details about the train once per hour / five minutes late were told at the DZ... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #43 March 7, 2004 QuoteOk, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical? ------------------------------------------------------------ in essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion! dude not at all, please stay and discuss here. I totally hear what you are saying, but skydiving is dangerous enough as it is, and the risks are not associated to static factors. Sure we all have to go someday -and some things are beyond our control - but a lot IS within our control and there is much we can learn and think about to help us prolong the time we do have here. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #44 March 7, 2004 QuoteOnce again people, this is gross speculation at best, not anything resembling fact. Yet it is being presented as fact. I maintain that you can never know why someone did something in such situations, even if they had been in the same situation before. Each mal has it's own unique set of circumstances and presents itself to the jumper with it's own unique face. Let's not try to presume we know the inner workings of a deceased person's mind during the final moments as they fought for their lives. Blue 111- Jeff Granted, especially where you talk about not knowing what went on in a deceased person's head (but I don't think every mal is unique - I for one have seen repeaters, thats what you get from slow learning...However - as a rule of thumb - let's refrain from second guessing any one's decision to cut-away. It should always be something like: "You were in the pilots seat, you are here to tell the story, you survived and all the 'harm' - if any - is that we all took a healthy stroll through the fields looking for your freebag and your main... Though the exercise did us good, maybe next time release the other steering toggle also, pump a few times and see what happens - provided you have enough altitude" Even the blonde & female student (sorry ladies, true story, I don't get to choose them either) that chopped "because the slider wouldn't go up" deserved 'positive reinforcement' for making a decision in what she saw as a life threatening situation. (Of course we 'strongly encouraged her' to trade in the rest of the static-line course jumps for a tandem with one of us, but that is another story...) Psychology has in its nature as well as in its tradition an element of speculation which deserves scrutiny and criticism. Yet people that die skydiving do so more often than not through their own human error. Avoiding human errors then must be the focus of our attention if we want to make skydiving safer. We could say (and did more often than not in the past) "he or she screwed up and is dead now - all I have to do is not screw up, keep my cool and I'll be fine..." Some psychologist tell us that 'denial is a killer' Could it be that they are right? What is of interest of course is not so much what someone was thinking 'in the final moment' but what he was thinking just before that final moment, when he took a fatal turn and could have gone 'the other way'. We don't know that for a particular person in a particular incident. But we might find a pattern, something in general. I'm convinced that 'trying not to look stupid when skydiving' has caused people to do stupid things that killed them. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #45 March 7, 2004 Boxingrrl: QuoteI got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. I do not like to see someone chop if it is a fixable problem, but I like much less to see them do nothing! You will learn in time what is fixable and what is not, for now just take action like you have already. You landed under a fully functioning canopy, which is much better any day of the week than landing a less than functional canopy. The most important thing is to learn from your disappointments, maybe next time you'll not chop a brake unstowed, but doing something is better than doing nothing! You did good!Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpinjackflash 0 #46 March 7, 2004 I'm tellin ya, not all is right here.... Seriously not right. meIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skip 0 #47 March 8, 2004 QuoteWell, what's the point of even trying to be safe when skydiving then? I might as well get that Velocity 96. I mean, if it's my time it's my time regardless of what canopy I'm jumping. And now that I think about it, I could sure use the money I could get by selling my Cypres... Exactly – to take it further, if dying was all about fate we might as well just abolish any sort of skydiving training, be it tandem, static line, AFF (or any hybrid of) – and just throw people out for there first time solo, with no instructor – well because if it’s there time its there time. I just think education out weighs fate when jumping out of airplanes. .:skip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #48 March 8, 2004 QuoteHowever - as a rule of thumb - let's refrain from second guessing any one's decision to cut-away. It should always be something like: "You were in the pilots seat, you are here to tell the story, you survived and all the 'harm' - if any - is that we all took a healthy stroll through the fields looking for your freebag and your main... Though the exercise did us good, maybe next time release the other steering toggle also, pump a few times and see what happens - provided you have enough altitude" Thank You! This is what I've been trying to get at. Maybe I just haven't made myself clear enough previously. QuoteI'm convinced that 'trying not to look stupid when skydiving' has caused people to do stupid things that killed them. And this, too... speculation or not... there are things that the dead and injured can teach us. Whether we choose to listen or not is up to us. And, whether we care to contribute to a culture or attitude that contributes to it is up to us as individuals as well. Telling stories around the campfire is one thing... deriding or belittling a jumper for saving their own life is a whole 'nother matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #49 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteBoxingrrl: ***I got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. I do not like to see someone chop if it is a fixable problem, but I like much less to see them do nothing! You will learn in time what is fixable and what is not, for now just take action like you have already. You landed under a fully functioning canopy, which is much better any day of the week to landing a less than functional canopy. The most important thing is to learn from your disappointments, maybe next time you'll not chop a brake unstowed, but doing something is better than doing nothing! You did good! I think it was skycat who had these cutaways, not me, but I really appreciate your being supportive in this manner. That's exactly what I'd love to see more of-- and less of the "I woulda' rode that in. What a waste"skygod mentality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 0 #50 March 8, 2004 Quotein essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion! 1) Neither of us claimed this thread as ours or asked you not to be here. We simply disagreed with you. If disagreement equated to a request to leave the thread, most threads here would stop after about 2 posts. 2) For the last time, your logic is ridiculously flawed. By your logic, I will only die when it is my time. Therefore I can put a gun to my own head every night before I go to bed, pull the trigger, and I won't die until it's my time. I might shoot myself in the head every night for the next 60 years if that were true. The fact that you can point out "odd situations" where death was probable but didn't occur, or improbable but did occur, is not proof that timing is the ultimate, end-all cause of death. 3) I am finished with this line of thought, not because I feel I've been asked to leave, but because it's off topic, and so illogical it's pointless trying to argue anymore.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Newbie 0 #36 March 7, 2004 QuoteWhy is it a wrong answer? The question was, who lives and who dies? The question, itself, implys nothing about safety, being unsafe or anything else. My answer mearly point out that if it is your time, you are going to die, if not, you won't. forget about pedanticisms of what the initial question does/doesn't mean and study and think about what has been written by the author, it may well help you to save your life someday. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #37 March 7, 2004 QuoteMy answer mearly point out that if it is your time, you are going to die, if not, you won't. Ok, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BETO74 0 #38 March 7, 2004 All I can think of is: we are gonna die sooner or later, better later than sooner and eventually we will fit in one of categories all of us. Why somebody leaves, I if I knew the answer, I enjoy reading your post .http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee03 0 #39 March 7, 2004 Ok, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical? ------------------------------------------------------------ in essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion!-------- To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities. --Nevil Shute, Slide Rule Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #40 March 7, 2004 QuoteSince that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. A couple of years ago a pilot bailed out of a Polish Mig, since he thought it was going to crash. The Mig didn't crash but went on it's way with no-one at the stick. It flew over Germany and Holland, went into a shallow turn to the left and ended up in someone's bedroom near the belgium-french border. An 18 year old guy was taking a nap after dinner. He died in his bed, with the Mig on top of him. He should have gone skydiving? Another one. A guy jumps in France with a PC-type canopy and a chest mounted reserve. He is trained not to cut away but deploy the reserve next to the mal. The two canopies next to each other are unsteerable and he lands on a railroad track near the DZ. Not busy there, a train passes once every hour. The train that cathes him on landing is five minutes delayed at that time... He should have stayed in bed? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #41 March 7, 2004 Well, what's the point of even trying to be safe when skydiving then? I might as well get that Velocity 96. I mean, if it's my time it's my time regardless of what canopy I'm jumping. And now that I think about it, I could sure use the money I could get by selling my Cypres... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #42 March 7, 2004 I just posted the two as true*) examples of incredible chance. Chances I at least found so incredible that one is tempted to believe in fate. I can see why people do believe in (their) fate - doesn't mean I do believe in it also. If there is a fate for me, I don't know it yet so I might as well take every precaution to avoid it sneaking up on me in an untimely manner. Then again, I might be resembling the gardener from Isfahan, running away from death towards my appointment with him. *) The Mig in the bedroom - widely publicized, The french skydiver under the train - maybe some 'frunchy' out here that can corroborate? I did read it as an accident report ("Flash accident mortal") in La Ferte Gaucher in 1984(?) and the details about the train once per hour / five minutes late were told at the DZ... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #43 March 7, 2004 QuoteOk, by your logic: Johnny Skydiver goes in because he hooks way too low. Conclusion, it was his time (i.e. time is the cause of his death, not his actions). The time was 3:23pm on 4/26/04. Since that was his time, he would have also died had he been behind the wheel of a car, on his couch watching TV, or asleep in his bed at the same time. Logical? ------------------------------------------------------------ in essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion! dude not at all, please stay and discuss here. I totally hear what you are saying, but skydiving is dangerous enough as it is, and the risks are not associated to static factors. Sure we all have to go someday -and some things are beyond our control - but a lot IS within our control and there is much we can learn and think about to help us prolong the time we do have here. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #44 March 7, 2004 QuoteOnce again people, this is gross speculation at best, not anything resembling fact. Yet it is being presented as fact. I maintain that you can never know why someone did something in such situations, even if they had been in the same situation before. Each mal has it's own unique set of circumstances and presents itself to the jumper with it's own unique face. Let's not try to presume we know the inner workings of a deceased person's mind during the final moments as they fought for their lives. Blue 111- Jeff Granted, especially where you talk about not knowing what went on in a deceased person's head (but I don't think every mal is unique - I for one have seen repeaters, thats what you get from slow learning...However - as a rule of thumb - let's refrain from second guessing any one's decision to cut-away. It should always be something like: "You were in the pilots seat, you are here to tell the story, you survived and all the 'harm' - if any - is that we all took a healthy stroll through the fields looking for your freebag and your main... Though the exercise did us good, maybe next time release the other steering toggle also, pump a few times and see what happens - provided you have enough altitude" Even the blonde & female student (sorry ladies, true story, I don't get to choose them either) that chopped "because the slider wouldn't go up" deserved 'positive reinforcement' for making a decision in what she saw as a life threatening situation. (Of course we 'strongly encouraged her' to trade in the rest of the static-line course jumps for a tandem with one of us, but that is another story...) Psychology has in its nature as well as in its tradition an element of speculation which deserves scrutiny and criticism. Yet people that die skydiving do so more often than not through their own human error. Avoiding human errors then must be the focus of our attention if we want to make skydiving safer. We could say (and did more often than not in the past) "he or she screwed up and is dead now - all I have to do is not screw up, keep my cool and I'll be fine..." Some psychologist tell us that 'denial is a killer' Could it be that they are right? What is of interest of course is not so much what someone was thinking 'in the final moment' but what he was thinking just before that final moment, when he took a fatal turn and could have gone 'the other way'. We don't know that for a particular person in a particular incident. But we might find a pattern, something in general. I'm convinced that 'trying not to look stupid when skydiving' has caused people to do stupid things that killed them. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #45 March 7, 2004 Boxingrrl: QuoteI got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. I do not like to see someone chop if it is a fixable problem, but I like much less to see them do nothing! You will learn in time what is fixable and what is not, for now just take action like you have already. You landed under a fully functioning canopy, which is much better any day of the week than landing a less than functional canopy. The most important thing is to learn from your disappointments, maybe next time you'll not chop a brake unstowed, but doing something is better than doing nothing! You did good!Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflash 0 #46 March 7, 2004 I'm tellin ya, not all is right here.... Seriously not right. meIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skip 0 #47 March 8, 2004 QuoteWell, what's the point of even trying to be safe when skydiving then? I might as well get that Velocity 96. I mean, if it's my time it's my time regardless of what canopy I'm jumping. And now that I think about it, I could sure use the money I could get by selling my Cypres... Exactly – to take it further, if dying was all about fate we might as well just abolish any sort of skydiving training, be it tandem, static line, AFF (or any hybrid of) – and just throw people out for there first time solo, with no instructor – well because if it’s there time its there time. I just think education out weighs fate when jumping out of airplanes. .:skip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boxingrrl 0 #48 March 8, 2004 QuoteHowever - as a rule of thumb - let's refrain from second guessing any one's decision to cut-away. It should always be something like: "You were in the pilots seat, you are here to tell the story, you survived and all the 'harm' - if any - is that we all took a healthy stroll through the fields looking for your freebag and your main... Though the exercise did us good, maybe next time release the other steering toggle also, pump a few times and see what happens - provided you have enough altitude" Thank You! This is what I've been trying to get at. Maybe I just haven't made myself clear enough previously. QuoteI'm convinced that 'trying not to look stupid when skydiving' has caused people to do stupid things that killed them. And this, too... speculation or not... there are things that the dead and injured can teach us. Whether we choose to listen or not is up to us. And, whether we care to contribute to a culture or attitude that contributes to it is up to us as individuals as well. Telling stories around the campfire is one thing... deriding or belittling a jumper for saving their own life is a whole 'nother matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boxingrrl 0 #49 March 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteBoxingrrl: ***I got quite a bit of "friendly advice" about not cutting away and working with the mal. I do not like to see someone chop if it is a fixable problem, but I like much less to see them do nothing! You will learn in time what is fixable and what is not, for now just take action like you have already. You landed under a fully functioning canopy, which is much better any day of the week to landing a less than functional canopy. The most important thing is to learn from your disappointments, maybe next time you'll not chop a brake unstowed, but doing something is better than doing nothing! You did good! I think it was skycat who had these cutaways, not me, but I really appreciate your being supportive in this manner. That's exactly what I'd love to see more of-- and less of the "I woulda' rode that in. What a waste"skygod mentality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #50 March 8, 2004 Quotein essence, yes. it was his predestined time to go, be it caused by a botched hookturn, a car wreck, sitting on a couch, or passing in his sleep. How many times have you seen, or heard of people that have survived horrendous accidents, injuries, of whatever, when there is no way that they should have lived, or someone surviving a illness normally fatal, but they lived. conversly, how often do you hear of people that were, young, completely healthy, in great physical condition, but for some reason have a heart attack, or just pass in there sleep. Someone with a minor wound, taking all precautions, but comes down with an infection and dies. in all these cases, it was either their time to go, or it was not their time to go. destiny, i know of no other way to explain it, it was the time of those that died to die, and it was not the time for those that lived to die. yes, I think it logical. Tell you what though, since you and Newbie obviously don't want me on your thread here, this will be my final entry on it! the field is yours and his. no use for me to stay where i'm not wanted! enjoy your thread and discussion! 1) Neither of us claimed this thread as ours or asked you not to be here. We simply disagreed with you. If disagreement equated to a request to leave the thread, most threads here would stop after about 2 posts. 2) For the last time, your logic is ridiculously flawed. By your logic, I will only die when it is my time. Therefore I can put a gun to my own head every night before I go to bed, pull the trigger, and I won't die until it's my time. I might shoot myself in the head every night for the next 60 years if that were true. The fact that you can point out "odd situations" where death was probable but didn't occur, or improbable but did occur, is not proof that timing is the ultimate, end-all cause of death. 3) I am finished with this line of thought, not because I feel I've been asked to leave, but because it's off topic, and so illogical it's pointless trying to argue anymore.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
