1st ParaCommander Jump

[skydivingwill 0]

This past week end, I jumped a round parachute that was older then me. I'm 28 the and parachute is at least 29 years old.

I have been wanting to jump a round parachute since before I started skydiving. The more I learned about this sports history the more I wanted to jump one. I was hoping to find a vintage Para Commander.

I heard all sorts of misinformation from skydivers who only jumped them a few times as a student or never at all. Luckily here at the Clewiston Florida drop zone we have a few older and experienced skydivers that had hundreds of jumps on these rounds.

Leo had two PCs with older harnesses. Both PCs were older then me and in good conduction. The rigger didn't like the conduction of the harnesses or of the idea of cape wells. We ended up finding a not quite large enough student Javelin to stick one of the rounds in. It took a few weeks to get all the parts together. Lee had to modify some three ring raisers and added a new spring loaded pilot chute. We had to shove the round in sidewise and use a long closing loop. In the end we had a safe but odd looking parachute system.

Jerry and Pam (AFF instructors) had me do a few PLFs. Smitty who has hundreds of round jumps coached me on how to fly it. On the way to altitude we throw out a wind drift to help spot. At 5K hopped out waited 5 seconds and pulled rip cord.

The opening was pretty soft. It was very quite, almost like being in a hot air balloon. This parachute didn't have much speed at all. I was guiding more then flying it. The turns were more like a rotation then anything. For the landing as instructed I didn't flare or pull down on the raisers. I just put my hands in front of me and braced for the impacted. The landing was surprisingly nice and soft. I landed on the DZ but about a 100 yards from the peas.

The staff at Clewiston are great people and helped me with one of my long-term goals.
I got tons of video and pictures from Smitty, Dano & Matt.
I plan on jumping this round a few more times.
I want to try a birdman and maybe even a Mr Bill.

Pictures:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?direct=Personal_Galleries/skydivingwill/2004-ParaCommander
http://www.danovision.com/images/will-round-web.jpg

 
"It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-J. K. Rowling
willtofly.com Videos, Pictures & News

[jjiimmyyt 0]

Sweet story. I hope to jump an 'older' main at some point.

I know lots of people look back and say the kit was 'dangerous' but I'd rather snap an ankle than cream in under a ram air.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

[Airman1270 0]

Way to go. I trained on rounds and have almost 50 round jumps, including three reserve rides.

In 1994 I borrowed a friend's PC, my first round jump in ten years. All went well. At about 100' - 200' or so, as I watched the ground some up, I remembered I weighed about 25 lbs. more than I did the last time I flew one of these.

I don't know what made more noise - me hitting the ground or everyone saying "ooh" at the same time. Good ol' PLF...

Cheers,
Jon

[JohnRich 4]

I showed up at the old Indiantown drop zone in 1980 as a 100-jump wonder, and Smitty was a big help to me way back then. I'm not surprised to hear that he's still helping people out, two decades later. He's a heck of a good guy!

[teason 0]

Quote

For the landing as instructed I didn't flare

Strange. I know it's foolish to flare rounds as they spill air and fall out of the sky. (saw it, it's funny to watch! ... not to do) I have, however, been told by old timers with PCs that you can flare it.

Was it the timing issue? better no flare than a mistimed flare? is my info incorrect? I also seem to recall reading it in a PC manual.

Please let me know, we've got a PC coming soon!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[slug 1]

Hi Will

Check with the folks that own the PC but I think the color pattern of the canopy you jumped was called a black widow. Could be wrong.

BTW 29 yr's isn't old If that canopy was made in 1975 it was made close to the end of folks jumping rounds and not jumped very much. Nice canopy.

For the guy who asked about "flaring" a PC on landing if your going up wind (penertration) you can apply some breaks to blead off some of the excess fwd speed so that your coming straight down.

If you weigh more than approx 150 lbs (60 kilo's) don't try for a standup go for the Pees or a plf.

R.I.P.

BTW 500 jumps on rounds, no mals, one broken ankle doing a down winder (in the corner) with a bad leg. No ambulance, no pins, 2hr wait for a cast.

[skydivingwill 0]

Quote

Check with the folks that own the PC but I think the color pattern of the canopy you jumped was called a black widow. Could be wrong.

That might explin the 4 black widow spiders that crawled out of this thing.

 
"It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-J. K. Rowling
willtofly.com Videos, Pictures & News

[skydivingwill 0]

Quote

I have, however, been told by old timers with PCs that you can flare it.

I was told that they did that for when aiming for target, but it was followed by a tumble.

I can see how it would slow the forward speed, but the forward speed isn't much.

 
"It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-J. K. Rowling
willtofly.com Videos, Pictures & News

[wmw999 2,126]

As an official old timer (about 500 round jumps).

The PC pattern was called a Merry Widow, not a Black Widow (but, well, in actually looking at the pictures, duh, that's not a Merry Widow, either -- I didn't ever see that pattern). Flaring was done as a preparation to standing up landings, but it was done with the risers, just about at the moment of landing, to reduce the forward speed slightly. And I stood up the vast majority of my round landings, got my D license accuracy with a round, and have probably done 10-15 demo jumps, including into a stadium, with a round.

But then I can PLF like crazy, and I'm old

Wendy W.
(edited to add my own standup landing with a flare)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[airtwardo 6]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/airtwardo&image=BackyardDemo.jpg&img=&tt=

It was definitely a timing thing...

You could also do a cool stand up by low hooking
into the wind....and that REALLY took timing!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Patkat 0]

Quote

Leo had two PCs with older harnesses. Both PCs were older then me and in good conduction. The rigger didn't like the conduction of the harnesses or of the idea of cape wells. We ended up finding a not quite large enough student Javelin to stick one of the rounds in. It took a few weeks to get all the parts together. Lee had to modify some three ring raisers and added a new spring loaded pilot chute. We had to shove the round in sidewise and use a long closing loop. In the end we had a safe but odd looking parachute system.

Dave DeWolf put together a similar system for a jumper at Maytown a couple of years ago. It was a purple PC on three ring risers put in a big ol' Dolphin container, with a square reserve and a throw out PC. Quite the combination of old and new.

Patkat
gotta exercise my demons!

[stratostar 5]

Hey if you want to get in on some round jumps then
Skydive Wayne County in Richmond In. is the place to be. We have the largest collection of jumpable
gutter gear in the USA, 25 compleat sets and counting, we still have more to bulid.
For the bigways come to Richmond "the"boogie
Photos attached are from this year of the 6-way.

(from prior post in 2004)
Here are the totals for my dz, as for now, for round jumps this season.

We have had 25 jumpers make 50 P.C. jumps.
15 0f 25 were 1st timers under a round, making
22 out of 50 jumps
4 were chicks
and two had less then 100 jumps, 42 & 62.
But the high lite was the mass drop at the Richmond
boogie, we were trying for 20 but one had to attend to a golf cart/truck crash as we walked to the plane
so we dropped 19, split in to two loads.
a ten way that built to 6 with 2 low (carbone was low) and 2 getting there right at break off not docking.
And a 9 way that built to 8, all but 1 out 19 landing in the main LZ. I hear it was quite a site from the ground.


Stratostar
"pack your own rig,you'll get out
What you put in it" -Byron Black D4968

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Done two jumps on a PC. Didn't much like the thought of using the reserve and everyone asked why the hell I wanted to jump one. My answer was something like the mountain climber's "Because it is there!!"

The first jump was weird , the silence under canopy was the first thing that I really noticed. Sooooo much quieter than anything square/elliptical I had flown before. I was also warned not to flare it and expect to do a plf. Landed it about 5 metres from the cross and could have stood up but not being sure about the first landing did a plf anyway. Was cool!!!

Second jump was similar but in almost nil wind. Not a nice landing but still walked away lol!

BSBD!! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[tbrown 26]

I used to jump a PC back in the mid seventies and just loved it. In fact you can get a lovely soft stand up landing by pulling on the rear risers, I used to do it all the time. I transitioned from jump boots to sneakers under a PC, also from a motorcycle helmet to a hockey helmet and never had any regreats. I can't honestly say a PC won't ever malfunction, but mine never did, in fact I've never had to cutaway from a round canopy in my life and that's over 300 jumps. As for the rig and not trusting capewells, I'm not sure if we ever trusted them either, but that's what we had & that's what we used. They usually worked just fine, though one friend tried to cutaway a Strato Star mal and could only pop one of his capewells, which streamered everything. He finally gave up on the other one and pulled his round reserve at about 500 ft. It opened, thank God.

If the round reserve canopy was in good shape, I'd jump the old gut gear again without any misgivings. But having a reserve hung on your chest makes you feel like a lead sled after jumping piggyback for so long. And oh yeqah, I'm twice as old and about 60 lbs heavier, so I think I'll just stick to the newer stuff and let the young headdown generation explore their heritage.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[sundevil777 93]

Capewell can bind up when under a side load (as when hanging from one side only after not cutting away at the same time). The rivets that serve as the pivot can get loose and cause the problem, if I memory serves me well.

We should make it clear that the technique for the softest landings is to haul down on the whole rear riser just barely before landing.

Even so, landings aren't always soft, and I sure as hell wouldn't encourage doing it with a vintage, tiny, hi-porosity round reserve. the descent rate under those things is terrible unless you are really light, and the low attachment points on the harness for many belly mounts really suck for opening shock and the reclined positon it sets you in for landing. We used to have no choice. This is a part of our heritage better left in the past.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[stratostar 5]

If your going to flair a P.C better do it with rear risers
and don't do to high. Never do it with toggles!
If your a fat ass it won't help much anyway.

Out of the 8 pc jumps this summer I got 6 great soft stand ups and the other two were on windy days but were soft crosswind plf's.

Have fun with your new toy when you get it.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

It had been well over twenty years since my last PC jump. I made one this summer and loved it. Even stood it up. Once you learn to fly one you never forget.

I'm surprised noone told you to flare the canopy. It's really pretty easy and makes for a better landing. Just reach as high up as you can on your back risers and do a chin up at flare time.

As Artwardo mentioned, you can hook it into the wind for a really soft landing, but this is kind of an advanced trick to learn. With the long lines on a conventional para-commander, they oscillate a lot, when you make a turn.

I used to use this trick once in a while on windy days. It sure beat backing up and doing a rear PLF. Even if you mis-time it, you probably won't get hurt too bad. I recall one wind jump when I hooked it about 90 degrees into the wind too late. I hit like a ton of bricks, but walked away from it just fine. At least I didn't hit feet, ass, and head as I usually did backing up.

I knew a few guys who used to use toggles to flare a P.C. B.J. Worth was one of them. Most people I knew used the rear risers to flare though.

I guess I'll never get used to hearing the Para-commander called just another round canopy. They were considered really hot in the early 70's. (A big step up from a 28 ft. round or t-10.) I think the forward speed was supposed to be around 15 miles per hour, but that seems about 5 miles too fast.

Hod Sanders said he didn't trust Para-Commanders. When he first started jumping on Mirror Image he was still jumping a 28 foot round. He said it openned good every time and knew a PC malfunctioned a lot more. He made over a thousand jumps on that same 28 foot round. It was covered with duck tape which patched all the burns and holes. The only trouble was that when their team landed Hod was usually a long ways off the D.Z. and it was wasting the teams time to wait for him to walk back in out of the desert each time. Finally B.J. gave Hod an ultimatum. "You either get some new gear or you're off the team." So Hod bought some new gear. I doubt if B.J. would have really kicked him off though because I know they're old pals, but that was how the story went.

As far as capewell's I never experienced any trouble with them. They released just fine for me, on the two cut aways I had. None of the folks I knew had trouble with them on their cut aways, but I'm sure they could hang up on occasion. On windy days, we often cut one side loose rather than get drug. We used to practice cut-aways in the suspended harness a lot. As long as you chop both at the same time, they seemed to work fine. I had a few friends who had one-shot capewells. On those you just jerked the covers down and it cut you away. The thought of that scared me. I liked the idea of taking the cover off first, even if it took more time.

The new gear is a tremendous step forward though. I like to jump old gear once in a while, but I'd hate to go back to it permanently.

This past summer it took three of us old farts, over an hour, to pack up an old para-commander. None of us could remember all the steps. We put our heads together and figured it out though. A young jumper walked up to us, and said, "What are you doing messing with all that gutter gear for?" One of my friends said, "I guess we're just trying to feel young again." And I guess that was about it......Steve1

[bch7773 0]

im hoping to do one of those this weekend. a rigger is going to pack it into a big student javelin...

a question though, how do you normally deploy one? is it ripcord or throw out or what?

MB 3528, RB 1182

[RogerRamjet 0]

It's so interesting reading this 30 years from current (well 24 anyway). When I started jumping (1973), squares were considered extreamly unreliable and cheapo rounds (28 foot navy C-9s mostly) and Paracomanders were the norm. Then Papellon's showed up and some others too.

The squares at the time were the Para-Plane and the Original Foil. The Para-Plane and Para-Cloud had to be packed for either sub-terminal or terminal deployment. Pack it for Terminal and deploy on a hop&pop and it probably bag locks. Pack if for sub-terminal and take it terminal and go to the hospital.

They were considered dangerous then (and it seems they have become dangerous again based on the fatality database).

The introduction of the Strato-Star changed all that. I have 650 Stato-Star jumps with 0 malfunctions. In fact, I believe a properly maintained and packed Strato-Star would open everytime.


FLARE: Yes, you should flare the PC at between 6 and 10 feet though it's not much, it's something. It's also interesting to note that accuracy done with these canopies was DOWN WIND.

Capewells: There were three types. 2 Shots on most static line (x military) gear. Shot and a half, the most common type in use. And 1-shots which I used. The 1-shot capewell was not as scary as some think. First, you had to pull the cover all the way down for release, not just open (they would come about 1/3 of the way down and stop if you didn't keep pulling. I would take new 1-shot covers and bend the spring slightly to increase the amount of tension so they would not move without help. They worked great for me.

I was working for Bill Booth when he came up with the 3-Ring system. I didn''t change to it (though I would have on my next rig purchase, just never bought another one). To me, the 3-Ring only offered two advantages over the one-shots. 1) One handle fires both sides. 2) (this is the biggest advantage over any other system at the time) After cutaway, only a nice smooth round ring remains on the harness, very hard to catch a reserve pilot chute on that!

The Para-Commander was a great canopy for it's time, but the squares that came along, starting with the Strato-Star, made it obsolete allmost overnight.

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[stratostar 5]

Quote

im hoping to do one of those this weekend. a rigger is going to pack it into a big student javelin...

a question though, how do you normally deploy one? is it ripcord or throw out or what?

You can use any of them, ie: ripcord (old school) hand deploy or S/L.
It would depend on what type of rig you use.
Unless your a pussy you use a retro H/C with ripcord
capewells and a belly wart!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Raistlin 0]

You guys are totally spoiled jumping rounds when there are ram-airs!

I did my first jump ever on a round because there was no other option available at the dz! and that was a year ago! :)

congratulations galore though

[skydivingwill 0]

Quote

im hoping to do one of those this weekend. a rigger is going to pack it into a big student javelin...

a question though, how do you normally deploy one? is it ripcord or throw out or what?

I used a spring loaded pilot chute with a ripcord in the BOC location.

 
"It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-J. K. Rowling
willtofly.com Videos, Pictures & News

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

im hoping to do one of those this weekend. a rigger is going to pack it into a big student javelin...

a question though, how do you normally deploy one? is it ripcord or throw out or what?

Jumping an old rig (3-pin container with ripcord on the main lift web, chest mount reserve) was half the fun on my PC jump. Of course that means finding both the gear and an old rigger with a chest rating

[sundevil777 93]

Another lousy thing about the old round reserve - the thought of a round reserve deploying without any diaper type of device does not give me a warm & fuzzy. We were too stupid to know better back then.

If you feel compelled to jump with a round reserve, at least do it with a modern design, with a diaper.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[winsor 186]

I have like five ParaCommander-class canopies around.

My primary PC is a Lightweight RWPC, D-bagged in a Wonderhog with a 26' steerable conical reserve and a BOC throwout pilot chute.

I have a Sierra set up the same way.

I have a couple of Mk 1 PCs in Mini System harness/containers, but haven't gotten around to jumping either. I'm a big fan of keeping handles in the same place from jump to jump.

I have a UT-15 Russian rig that I can't figure out how to pack. It is in the original Russian harness/container, and quite how the lines should stow and how the sleeve is retained on the canopy is not apparent upon casual inspection. I'll probably wind up setting it up in an American harness/container when I get around to jumping it.

The big problem with the Mk 1s and the UT-15 is they are bloody HUGE! The RWPC and Sierra have about half the pack volume of the traditional PCs, and can be fitted to a Wonderhog with no problem.

I'm not big on belly-mounted reserves - though I have a quarter-bagged C-9 with 4-line release set up in one - so I haven't jumped the Mini Systems to date. I probably should, but am in no rush.

Anyone wishing to jump a ParaCommander need only stop by Tent 3 at the Convention. I have it there every year.


Blue skies,

Winsor