Jump Numbers

[billvon 2,400]

I'm an organizer at Rantoul, and nothing pisses me off more than people who lie about their jump numbers. Especially since we _specialize_ in taking up people with low jump numbers. They often lie because they don't want to get stuck with the newbies. Ironically, often the opposite happens - we try to pair people up so we're not doing six-ways with five people with 50 jumps, so if someone lies and says they have 300 jumps doing 4-way they often get sucked into a low experience dive to balance out the skill levels.

Don't lie about jump numbers. It's not a super accurate way of judging competence, but it's the only hard-and-fast number we have. Some of us have been organizing a long time, and understand that there are people out there with lots of skill but low jump numbers. I know people with 1500 jumps who can't launch a 4-way, and a good friend of mine got onto the 300-way in Arizona when she had 300 jumps. This is apparent to us pretty quickly.

>but how can you prove anything if you can't get on a load.

All of us have been there. Do 2 and 3 ways with other people in your position. Go to other drop zones and jump with other groups of people. Eventually your skill will become apparent and you'll start getting asked on more loads.

By the same token, you have to realize that you may simply not yet have the skills to do some of the dives they're talking about. Funneling an exit is annoying, but funneling a dive near breakoff, or not being able to track well, can be deadly. So as you make more and more jumps, make sure you've got the basics covered, by getting feedback from either coaches or more experienced people on your load.

And if all else fails, come to Rantoul. We'll get you on some dives that will be both safe and challenging. Ask Vallerina about what you can do as a newbie at Rantoul if you set your mind to it.

[MJH 0]

The reason it would be wrong to lie about jump numbers lies in the answer to this question: "If I or somebody else got hurt because I lied my way into a jump for which I wasn't ready, how would I feel?"

The reason it would be stupid to lie about jump numbers lies in the answer to this question: "If somebody else got hurt because I lied my way into a jump, how would I satisfy the judgment after I were found liable for negligence or fraudulent concealment?"

Honesty is the best policy.

[flyangel2 2]

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I recently moved to a new drop zone and feel like I am judged only on my jump numbers, what are everyone's feelings about not being honest as to how many jumps you have?

What kind of attitude are you presenting to the LOs and other jumpers at your DZ?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[bodypilot1 0]

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It is a problem older than anyone that is posting here.

BINGO!

Unfortunatly you just have to suck it up sometimes and not whine about it.

Be a nice guy, do some smaller jumps at your new DZ and prove you have the ability and control to go bigger and better.

What load organizers hate is the is people that don't tell the truth about their abitlity and jump numbers when trying to organize something that will work in the air.

But most of all whiners.

Keep showing up at the DZ, and if you are as good as you think you are, you'll get on the loads.



Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[jumperconway 0]

1 year and 270 someodd jumps and I was turned down down at the Balunar demo 20 ways because of a reputation I got from screwing up a jump some 200 back. The next year I was on the Texas State Record 120 ways approved by the same 2 organisers that had turned me down on the 20ways! Keep your head up and your mouth shut unless you're asking questions. Accept responsibility if you screw up and let the people know that you learned from it. Ask the organisers questions about how to improve things. Hang out after jumping and listen to the stories. Be one of them and hold your head high. It just takes time. We all have been there done that. Think about the future before your mouth condems it. There was a lot that I wanted to put in print after my rejection early on. Thank goodness better judgment kept me from saying what my heart wanted to say. Attitude,Attitude,Attitude,Attitude!!!

[okalb 78]

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I recently moved to a new drop zone and feel like I am judged only on my jump numbers, what are everyone's feelings about not being honest as to how many jumps you have?

I have been an organizer at z-hills for about 4 years now, so I have a decent amount of experience with this. I can tell you right now that jump numbers mean a lot more than you think. I always find it funny that the pople who claim that jump numbers don't mean anything are usually the ones with low jump numbers. Living near the tunnel I know lots of people with very few jumps that are great flyers but that doesn't always translate to great in larger groups. There are certain things that can only be learned from experience and jumping is the only way to get that kind of experience. Also, jump numbers are all I have to go by until we jump together. I am not willing to risk everyone's jump tickets on what you tell me you can do. I have to see it for myself.

As an organizer I would much rather be pleasantly surprised by how well you do on something small and fun, than pissed off when you screw up on something that you didn't belong on.

My decision to let you join a group has a lot of dimensions. Jump numbers are just part of it. If I don't know you, I look at numbers but I also look at how you carry yourself. I also have to take into account who else is on the load. If it is a bunch of kick ass skydivers that are going to go up and do a kick ass jump, I am not going to risk the jump for an "unknown". If it is a relaxed groups that just wants to go have fun and doesn't mind doing something simple that is a different story.

What I usually tell the low timers is this; My day usually starts off with a small group and by the end of the day we are doing 20 ways or so. Get here early and you can join us on the small stuff. As your skills get better, you will be able to stay longer and longer. If you are as good as you think then it will not take long until you are with us all day. You may even start getting invited on the sunset formation loads.

Also, you can't get annoyed when I put you in a slot that you don't want to do. I have a set progression that I put all my newer jumpers through. Until you prove yourself to me in a certain slot, I am not going to let you take the next slot. You don't like it, go jump with someone else.

It will all come with time. Be there early, often and don't whine. If you whine and annoy me all the time I will be less likely to want to jump with you.

Hope that helps.
-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Adrock 0]

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My best advice to you would be to impress people with your personality first, THEN with your flying skills. If people think you're a nice guy, they're gonna make the effort to jump with you whether you have 20 jumps or 2000.

I agree with WrongWay on this one; I have gotten to jump with a lot of people (including WrongWay himself) who are much better than me partly by being nice. And after I jumped with a few people on the dz, the word spread about my skill level. But I've never been afraid to do a solo if no one wants to jump with me on a given load. Often, in freeflying, I'll find someone to jump with at the loading area!

Don't worry, it will come with time! And please don't forget this feeling when you have more jumps; be willing to jump with the lower-number people as well. This weekend I took a guy out on his first two sit-fly jumps and it was very rewarding to me.

[Scrumpot 1]

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I very often get stuck in the base.

Hey John, what do you mean by "stuck" in the base? ...I resemble that remark!!

HA, HA, HA, HA! ...I just couldn't resist that!

Seriously though, otherwise, right on the money response. ...Somebody new shows up on the DZ, I am ALWAYS happy to jump with 'em. ...And I will COMMIT to do so FIRST, ...BEFORE even asking. But just before getting together, manifesting and planning the dirt-dive, if I've never seen 'em before, I WILL ask. ...It's NOT an insult. It IS really the quick (as you say) down & dirty way to quickly assess what you are going to do.

Now, if I had a 12-way group ready to go or something, and then the person says "23" or something like that ...I may turn around & divide the ealier 12-way up into 2 groups (or just bow MYSELF & the new-face out), then take the new face up on either a 2 or 3-way with someone else I know. If they say (like this initial poster) 150-somethin' (or the like) I still most likely will break down the group(s) and put them in the smaller one (WITH ME) to assess their skills. I will also ask MORE than just jump #'s at that point too. Like, what have they been doing recently? ...How current? ...How successful? And then, ...what (in all honesty) would THEY like to do? Normally this works out just fine, and they find their "level" that way and fit in pretty quickly!

Also, ANYBODY not "willing" to do at least one or 2 jumps as an unkown, in what even just seems like it may be an "eval", and gets insulted, has just as big a problem themselves.

I've said this before, and I practice it! If I walk up onto an unfamiliar dropzone where nobody there seems to know me (#1 ...then they have the problem ---only kiddding!) ...I am glad to go up, even on just a 2-way with whoever the local "mentor" (or what have you) may be. It's a 2-way street, and neither direction of that street should have a problem with this.

I'm ALWAYS looking for MORE faces to have some fun with and join me! ...If your DZ is "uninviting" and unfriendly, feel free to come join me ANY TIME!

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[lauras 0]

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If you whine and annoy me all the time I will be less likely to want to jump with you.

Hey, hey, easy now. So that's why you kept telling me "4-way looks like soooo much fun! Why don't you go do that?!"

[okalb 78]

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If you whine and annoy me all the time I will be less likely to want to jump with you.

Hey, hey, easy now. So that's why you kept telling me "4-way looks like soooo much fun! Why don't you go do that?!"

Uh oh...busted!

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[JohnMitchell 14]

Iknow it's an honor to be in the base, and I know it's the most important part of the dive but hey . . .

you know it's more fun to swoop.

And for anyone stuck on a 3-way or 4-way with me 'cause they didn't have "enough jumps" for the bigger load, trust me, we pay attention to how you fly, and will gladly bring you on the bigger ways if you stay safe, cool, and smile.

[Scrumpot 1]

Yeah, when I began "L/O'ing" ...even just loosely last season, I was told: "HA! ...you've now made it your 'job' and yourself to be 'the target' -enjoy!"

However, NOT necessarily! Hey, if it's gonna be more conducive to a dive's success for me to swoop, then I swoop!

It's fun to finally be the one that (sometimes) actually makes the decisions as to that!

[post hijack-mode now /off]

Back to the original poster... trust us, we have ALL "been there", and paid our "dues". In a way (at least for me) it also brings back some fond memories. ...Don't sweat it. You'll get there.

Ahhh.... Nostalgia. It just aint what it used to be!

BLUE SKIES,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[bob.dino 0]

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I have a set progression that I put all my newer jumpers through. Until you prove yourself to me in a certain slot, I am not going to let you take the next slot.

Out of curiosity, what's the progression?

[okalb 78]

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I have a set progression that I put all my newer jumpers through. Until you prove yourself to me in a certain slot, I am not going to let you take the next slot.

Out of curiosity, what's the progression?

Almost everyone starts in the base. After that I usually move people to rear float then further back to rear rear. Next is first row diver behind the base, then further and further back. Obviously it varies based on skill and size and fall rate and lots of other variables. But that is the general idea.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[bob.dino 0]

Fair enough. Roughly what I figured... but since I've only done 10-15 30+ ways, I'm no expert.

Oh, and do you know Van Wideman? He was out here over Christmas organising some 40-ways. Lovely bloke.

[okalb 78]

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Oh, and do you know Van Wideman? He was out here over Christmas organising some 40-ways. Lovely bloke.

I have met Van a few times but I don't really know him. He spends most of his time at Deland and I spend most of mine at z-hills.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[tbrown 26]

And then there are 4000 jump wonders who screw up the dive because they can't be bothered to go to the dirt dive. The organizer sez it's okay, "he's got 4000 dives and I'll tell him what we're doing on the ride up". Then when the six way goes off the tailgate, guess who goes right over the top and funnels the exit ? Yeah, Mr. Wonderful. The fact that the other five people would've held that exit together means nothing to him, he's got 4000 dives. Makes me wish I packed a pistol in my legstrap.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Michele 1]

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I'm ALWAYS looking for MORE faces to have some fun with and join me! ...

Friday. 2 pm. Be there.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[pms07 3]

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I'm not trying to sound like a SkyGod, I know I have a ton to learn, but how can you prove anything if you can't get on a load. The people I have jumped with on cloudy days where I am their only option put in good words for me but the organizers of their groups don't care. They still pick the guy with more jumps who just fucked up the exit over someone with low numbers who did fine. They see a jump number and that's the end.

Sounds like you need to move to a different DZ/load organizer...

[pms07 3]

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You can't say you have never jumped with someone with way more jumps then you but way less skill. Things such as currency, coaches, and what you've done on your jumps have a lot to do with skill and expierience too but no one will ever listen to that. Jump numbers alone do not define how you jump.

Dude,
"No one will ever listen"? YGTBSM? Of course jump numbers don't alone define how you jump; just ask anyone that's ever seen me freefly... Anyway, recommend you lose the combatitive attitude if you normally carry it with you to load organizers...

pms

[mjosparky 3]

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I'm not trying to sound like a SkyGod, I know I have a ton to learn, but how can you prove anything if you can't get on a load. The people I have jumped with on cloudy days where I am their only option put in good words for me but the organizers of their groups don't care. They still pick the guy with more jumps who just fucked up the exit over someone with low numbers who did fine. They see a jump number and that's the end.

Welcome to the real world. The organizer picked the guy who fucked up the exit because he is his friend.
Organizers don't see just jump numbers, they also see attitude. Jump numbers and attitude are the rules they play by. Now if you think that sucks, get good enough to do your own organizing, but then I bet you will use jump numbers and attitude to choose who goes and who stays.

Got any cheese?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Vallerina 2]

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And if all else fails, come to Rantoul. We'll get you on some dives that will be both safe and challenging. Ask Vallerina about what you can do as a newbie at Rantoul if you set your mind to it.

You can actually learn how to do a four-way!!!

I never understood why people lied about having more jumps than they actually do. Personally, I'd rather people expect nothing from me and be pleasantly surprised than the opposite way around. It's not about "getting on the load." Yes, sometimes you have to do some work. You may have to seek out events which cater towards newbies. You may have to get some tunnel time.

Focus less on getting on loads and more on learning.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[okalb 78]

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Focus less on getting on loads and more on learning.

And it doesn't hurt to make the organizer crack up laughing while he is trying to give the exit count

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

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[towerrat 0]

It's already been stated over and over, so I'll keep this brief. I worked really, really hard to get my skills up to a level where I can ( within reason) pick my skydives. Nobody is going to hand it to you, you have to earn it. Whining will get you nowhere my friend, and lying will at the very least make a jakass out of you.
I suggest you keep quiet and get on whatever loads you can. As your skills improve, so will the quality of dives available to you.
Stop whining

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[okalb 78]

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I worked really, really hard to get my skills up to a level where I can ( within reason) pick my skydives. Nobody is going to hand it to you, you have to earn it.

Actually in your case I think we just felt sorry for you
But seriously randy is absolutely right. He got on any jump he could at the dz. He proved himself and got on better and better stuff. Now any organizer at the dz would let him on any skydive.

The other thing to remember is that you can learn a lot from the crappy skydives as well. I learn on every jump I go on. Actually I think I learn more when they don't go well because I spend a lot of my time chasing people around. Wrangling other jumpers will sure teach you to fly.

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana