Sail before steam? out of date concept or not?

[Andrewnewell 0]

Ok, so having got out last and completing a successfull three way, my group had to fly back through groups of "docile canopy" pilots, whom seemed unaware of my groups presence in their air space.

As I was flying a faster wing It was my responsibility to move and get round the slower canopy's. The Thing that struck me was that hardly anyone was looking where they were going and the vast majority ended up holding over the runway and a advanced landing area.

On landing I though it was a good idea to explain to some of the newer flyers, that It was probably a good idea to not just switch off under canopy and to look out for each other. Also that it maybe a good idea not to hang around the advanced landing area, for obvious reasons...

A certain old school member of the load responded to this by saying that it was the persons on the faster canopys total responsibility to get out of the way of the more inexperienced pilots who were flying slower wings. With this point I totally agree. However he used the example of sail before steam to explain his point?

I.e. a sail boat has priority over a steam boat because it does not have the ability to move as quick.
He continued to elaborate, saying that a similar rule is used in aviation and that the faster group was in the wrong, despite load order and all the variables associated with canopy piloting.??!

My point is that a boat has the luxury to be able to stop in the water, a aircraft can hold his present altitude and wait for an opening to land. A canopy pilot can slow his rate of descent but cannot stop. If there is slower canopys congregating in the wrong place at low alititudes, surely this can lead to big problems for pilots under faster wings. As we are all aware most incidents occur due to people making quick decisions close to the ground. It is my opinion if persons under slower wings encroach into the air space of fast canopys then they are putting them selves and the faster canopy pilots at greater risk.

Is the concept of sail before steam an out dated concept for modern sports parachuting?

Is the use of such a broad concept a bad idea, in a sport that should require pilots to be more reactive and flexible when flying their canopy's?

Would you blindly follow such a rule?

[pilotdave 0]

Even gliders have to give way to hot air balloons. Least maneuverable wins. That doesn't give the balloon pilot the right to hang out at the end of a runway, blocking the approach path. Everyone's gotta use common sense. But I do think faster canopies often have more options than slow canopies, and therefore the slower (and lower) canopies should have the right of way.

Dave

[Orange1 0]

(I'm just a newbie but)
We are taught (and I know in US it's the same cos it's in Poyntner's book) that slower canopies and lower canopies have right of way. He points out that upward visibility is very poor under canopy, which may also be a factor with your guys? (also why lower pilots have right of way). And I guess one would assume that a more experienced pilot on an HP canopy would be able to get themselves out of trouble easier than a novice on a slow one.

Having said that, as a newbie I must worry about what you've said. Just my own experience on our DZ is: (1) we are taught to always look in the direction we're about to turn. Presumably there are some turns involved in your newer jumpers "holding" - why aren't they looking? (2) is it an issue with the layout of your DZ? our usual holding areas (prevailing winds) are either N or S of the DZ, with the runway to the W and the advanced landing area W again, so there would be no reason - usually - for anyone to hold over those areas. (I stand corrected but I think we actually go on wind hold if it starts blowing easterly - but i've never been there in those wind conditions)

I guess what I'm asking is - is the problem the rule, or is it possibly in the training/briefing of your students, or the layout of your DZ?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Is the concept of sail before steam an out dated concept for modern sports parachuting?

I don’t think so. The faster canopy is approaching from behind – they would be the one to cause the incident were one to happen. Yes the slow canopy is being inconsiderate by holding above the exp. landing area, but there’s nothing that says the exp. pilots HAVE to land there and that they HAVE to zoom through the slower canopies and thus cause a danger to everyone.

Sail before steam still holds out IMO, but it's probably a good idea for all the sail boats out there not to stick themselves in the fast lane unless they have to. Doing so is inconsiderate though IMO, not dangerous. The person who blows through them is the one carrying out the dangerous maneuver.

I think the only blind people would be the hot shot canopy pilot who just has to pull off a swoop and yells at noobs for being in the way and in "their" airspace. Low guy in front has right of way – they were there first, they can't see you coming and they can’t manure round you. ("can't" is a bit blanket but the point is the higher, rear canopy can do all of those much easier... it just so happens that in many cases the higher, rear canopy is also the hotter canopy, certainly in your example).

[AggieDave 6]

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A certain old school member of the load responded to this by saying that it was the persons on the faster canopys total responsibility to get out of the way of the more inexperienced pilots who were flying slower wings. With this point I totally agree. However he used the example of sail before steam to explain his point?

Yes, the concept still holds true, HOWEVER, that doesn't give the "sailboat" the right to get over to the pattern entrance and start spiralling hard below 2000ft. With their spirals loosing about as much altitude as most highly loaded canopies loose in full flight. It also doesn't give them the right to get on final and sit in brakes or to do S-turns on final either.

It does give them the right to fly a nice clean pattern so we can go to the side of the "sailboat" with a straight in approach instead of having to fly in 3/4 brakes to keep from running through the other canopy and then giving us very little to flare with.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riggerrob 563]

Faster canopies must yield right of way to slower canopies because frequently they approach slower canopies from their blind spot: above and behind.

Sounds like your DZ should designate different landing areas for slow and fast canopies.
At Pitt Meadows, we have a designated "swoop lane" and we tell visiting junior jumpers to ignore the aggressive young males in the swoop lane. Then we review a standard landing pattern for our pea gravel bowl.

[davelepka 4]

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But I do think faster canopies often have more options than slow canopies

Don't slow canopies spend more time in the air, thus opening them up to more options?

Are we expecting too much from jumpers to be aware of their surroundings? My guess is that he's not talking about student jumpers, so is it really too much to expect that after 50 or 60 jumps, the concept of where you are and what you're doing is apparent to every jumper?

I'm sure that none of these jumpers opened up and said "I gonna hose that swooper, and block the swoop lane", they just ended up there. I'm sure they would have prefered to not be in the way, but the fact that they were shows a complete lack of awareness.

Wake up people, you just jumped out of a plane, and are still thousands of feet up. Your life depends on your actions for the next few minutes, start acting like it.

[Tonto 1]

Regardless of ones view on rules, low level unintentional CRW (read: "Collision") is best avoided by the pilot aproaching from above and behind. The pilots of the "docile canopies" usually have less experience, lower awareness, restricted manuverability and less chance of noticing those aproaching from their 6.

The advice given for splitting the landing area is a good one.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Andrewnewell 0]

I think generally speaking the lower slower canopys always have the right of way as was mentioned.

I also think that DZ in question has not really updated its guidelines properly to include changes in exit order ( Not that I realy want to go in to that one) and a rule defining holding areas for its advanced and normal landing areas. These are almost definatley contributing factors that create incidents there.

My main concern about the whole situation is that there is very little education about landing patterns/ canopy flight in the UK and certain parties just use this "Sail before steam guideline" as an excuse to potter along in their own world, expecting that they have right of way no matter what.

You know, those same guys that just drive old bangers in the middle lane of motorways, not checking their mirrors, on auto pilot, daydreaming away.

[AggieDave 6]

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Are we expecting too much from jumpers to be aware of their surroundings? My guess is that he's not talking about student jumpers, so is it really too much to expect that after 50 or 60 jumps, the concept of where you are and what you're doing is apparent to every jumper?

It should be expected of these folks, although, I'm not trusting my life to someone with only 50 jumps to do the right thing under canopy. I'm flying away from them and going to the swoop lane or another part of the landing area away from that jumper (and other like them) if I have to.


When on a load with other people, swooping is a privlage, its not a right. I love getting to toss my hook and swoop just as much as any other swooper, BUT if its unsafe, there's too much traffic, anything that creates a danger due to others, then the swoop isn't going to happen. I guess that's why I prefer to do hop&pops so I can fly exactly how I want to fly my patter (which starts at 1500ft not 1000ft) and I can throw my 270 out at 650ft exactly where I want to above the ground so I can hit the gates.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

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although, I'm not trusting my life to someone with only 50 jumps to do the right thing under canopy

And there you have it. If everyone (including the 50 jump wonder) had the same attitude, they would be watching out for themselves, as opposed to hanging under canopy wiping the drool from their chins.

Too many people think that they are beginners, or low time jumpers, and that things are different for them. When it comes to how many points they can turn, or how far they can swoop, yes, things are different. But the fact remains that you are risking your life just like me, and need to have a basic level of awareness and responsibility for yourself.

If you can't handle that, stop jumping. Please.
(Not you Dave)

[pilotdave 0]

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Don't slow canopies spend more time in the air, thus opening them up to more options?

Not in my opinion. They do have more time to wish they could be where they want to be, but less ability to get there. I used to fly a PD-150 loaded at about .85. I'd watch the guys with fast canopies shoot past me, over to the other side of the airport, back around, get where they want to start their swoop, and drop into a hook turn. And all that time I'd be aimed at the landing area, slowly chugging along toward my pattern entry point. If the wind suddenly shifted and I needed to get to the other side of the landing area to start my pattern, I wouldn't be able to like the fast canopies would.

Now I jump a slightly higher loaded Sabre2. I am much better able to fly my canopy where I need to be. It's still very slow compared to a lot of other canopies. I still have plenty of traffic passing me. They've got more options than I do. They can widen their pattern and still make it back. They can hold in brakes and fly next to me if they want. More ability to choose where they'll go and how they'll get there.

Dave

[Feeblemind 1]

Well I agree with alot of what is said here. Being a pilot of a "Sky Barge" and being a newbie I deploy at 4000. The sky is large and the landing areas/approach are small in comparision.

I was trained to fly to a "play area" and develop my canopy skills. I then enter the pattern and hit check point one at a 1,000 feet and fly in the pattern to land. By doing things in this manner I am in a predictable area while performing my canopy training and predictable when in the landing pattern.

I understand the Sail vs Steam argument here, but common sense must come into play as well. Why should I (in a sky barge) be so inconsiderate to be in the way and effect a skilled pilots (high performance)landing? The landing area is large enough I can yield some room.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[davelepka 4]

A) I'd like to think that the sink rate of your F-111 main compared ot that of your new ZP model comprised the bulk of the difference.

B) Under canopy, it's all about time, not speed. The longer you have to set-up, or think, or choose, or decide the better.

[DJL 232]

I think sailing is a perfect metaphor for all parachuting activities. In fact, I think we should communicate with each other under canopy via phonetic code flags. Here are a few examples:

Slow

Landing direction?

Haiku

These would be quite easy to just hoist up your lines for all to see. Furthermore, vesseles over 390 ft^2 should be required to trail a steaming cone. Wait, they do...

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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The advice given for splitting the landing area is a good one.

t

But inevitably the docile canopies get fucked over by being forced to land in East Bumfuck because Johnny Xaos insists on prime landing areas so his buddies can film his "Sweet Swoops."[/Napoleon Dynamite]

[AggieDave 6]

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But inevitably the docile canopies get fucked over by being forced to land in East Bumfuck because Johnny Xaos insists on prime landing areas so his buddies can film his "Sweet Swoops."

Think about this for a minute.

Where are the beer lines and where people tend to swoop? Sort of near the hanger, right?

Now, what license do a majority of folks that have large docile canopies have?

Now, what do the BSRs state about landing distances from obsticles (buildings, etc)?

Skill with accuracy and predictable/dependable patterns aside, this is one of the reasons why my DZ has A/B license holders landing further out in the landing area (away from a hanger, tarmac and parked planes). This is also why the swoop lane is a D-license only with S&TA approval landing area. The "outs" if you botch your pattern include a 10' fence with barbed wire on top, a long hanger, powerlines, tarmac and parked cars. However, it is a prime landing area where we do have our buddies film our "sweet swoops." Its the closest landing area next to the DZ's hanger and the ground is nice and very smooth. So you're right, we set things up that way to dick over the low time jumpers with the large canopies.


So instead of looking at the trees, look at the forest and take into consideration the USPA DZs in the US following the BSRs (or atleast trying to).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bmcd308 0]

We have a couple of real, honest-to-goodness accuracy jumpers at my dz. Landing behind them is sometimes like wrestling a water mattress. But they are doing their thing, and it's everyone else's job to get out of the way. They try to be courteous and land last and good stuff like that, but sometimes, only one person gets to land exactly where I want to, and it's not always me.

One of the responsibilities that comes with going fast is an obligation to avoid those who have not made the same choice.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[Andrewnewell 0]

I like that!

We could also fix flash lights to our helmets, so we can communicate with morse code?!

[DJL 232]

No, Nav Lights would be better. Here, brush up:

Lights and shapes

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Tonto 1]

As Aggie pointed out, keeping those on larger, more docile canopies away from the landing hazards is a good thing, even in Africa, where I am. I'm quite sure that if you placed the accuracy tuffet 5 yards from the hangar at a National competition you'd find all the senior competitors complaining about the interference from the buildings, etc.

You can't please all of the people all of the time. We're looking at avoiding the type of collision that has put a very good friend of mine in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, and you're weighing that risk against a MAXIMUM of a maybe 90 second walk. It's all about priorities. Avoiding a colision, either between canopies, or between junior jumpers and obsticals is the priority here, not who has to walk for 60 seconds, and why.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Feeblemind 1]

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The advice given for splitting the landing area is a good one.

t

But inevitably the docile canopies get fucked over by being forced to land in East Bumfuck because Johnny Xaos insists on prime landing areas so his buddies can film his "Sweet Swoops."[/Napoleon Dynamite]

The primary DZ I jump at the width portion of the landing area is East/West. The Swooper use up maybe 50 - 75 feet of that width and yes there are objects there I want to avoid. I land betwen 50-75 feet from their area without issue, is this considered East bumfuck? Also these are the same folks on the ground that are watching my canopy work and landings. Last weekend I got hit with a firm crosswind gust that caused canopy to dive to the right at 50 feet. I made the standard rookie move and started to reach for the ground with toggle in hand. At that very moment my instructors screaming voice rang through my head, NO! NO! NO! LEVEL THE CANOPY!! I was just imput enough left toggle to get level and stab the brakes as I landed. The swoopers poked a little fun at me intially, but then they complimented my recovery. Two of them spent about 30 minutes a piece with me educating me on how not to break myself if a similiar circumstance was to arise. Of course I will discuss this with my instructor, but I appreciated the more seasoned vetrans spending time with me as newbie.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked