PLF alternatives

[mailin 0]

In my thirst for more inforamation...

Started AFF last weekend, which goes without sayng that we practiced PLFs... Darius11 can attest to how it went. I wasn't pleased.

I'm not what you would call an agile or super flexible person, but I am willing to try to learn to be.

In watching the video in this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1021403 - great landing falls etc., I got to thinking. What other sports are landing falls routinely practiced? I would love to get involved with something during the week that would help me practice for the weekends. I didn't think to ask this to my insturctor this weekend, because I thought I'd be fine until this coming weekend, but its been on mind, obsessively, ever since. Due to this, I hope I don't get the usual "ask your instructor" answers, as I've talked to enough other AFF JMs who have said that its not 'routine' to search for other outlets, outside of skydiving, to practice these. Just looking for some feedback or examples.

I am well aware that PLFs could be the only way to 'land' safely as a student, and the fact that I'm unnatureally terrified of landing makes me want to practice, practice, practice. In thinking about practicing on mats I would be worried about practing on a softer surface that in itself could promote injury.

Any ideas on how to practice them? I need to keep my mind on something other than setting up the landing pattern (which is also an unnatural fear for me right now, ok, landing in general scares the begeezes out of me).

Jennifer

Arianna Frances

[payback462 0]

kite jumping
skateboarding
jumping out of the back of a pickup truck driving through the landing area?

[piisfish 135]

try some judo.
I'm not very flexible either... but jumping a round last summer helped me get a nice PLF. These 3 times were my only PLF's, besides the ones I did in the training room in Homestead during my ground course, and the ones I did just before jumping the round.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[skybytch 259]

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the fact that I'm unnatureally terrified of landing makes me want to practice, practice, practice.

That's the best advice I can give - practice, practice, practice. PLF's are a survival skill; time spent practicing them is not wasted even if you stand up every landing you ever make. They're also a handy skill to have in your muscle memory when you're too drunk to walk straight.

If possible have someone who knows what a "good" PLF looks like watching you, but even if you have to do them alone and hope you're doing them right - practice, practice, practice.

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In thinking about practicing on mats I would be worried about practing on a softer surface that in itself could promote injury.

When I was teaching FJC's we'd do them in the peas, or occasionally out in the grass. On rainy days I'd throw a couple pads down in the hangar. When I was a student I used to practice them on my living room floor. When doing them on harder surfaces or outdoors I'd have my students start on the ground and "hop" into it; on softer surfaces (like exercise pads on the hangar floor) I'd have them get up on a chair and start from there. I don't recall anyone injuring themselves while we were practicing PLF's regardless of what surface we were rolling around on.

I've heard that at least some forms of martial arts (I don't know which ones but I'm sure someone here does) and gymnastics require that you learn to fall without injury but I don't know if or how well those falling techniques would translate to landing a parachute.

btw, setting up the landing pattern is way easier than you think it will be. Did your instructor talk about canopy flight plans (a plan for your canopy flight that includes where you want to be to start your pattern and what things on the ground that you want to be over when turning base and final)? I started doing those after taking a canopy control course and man, I wish using those had been the norm back when I was doing my student jumps.

[Tink1717 2]

In my not so humble opinion, the PLF is obsolete. The slide landing is, I think, a better and more safe alternative. I have had several situations where I slid. If I had tried to PLF in any of them, I would have been injured.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[indyz 1]

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In my not so humble opinion, the PLF is obsolete. The slide landing is, I think, a better and more safe alternative.

I'll try and remember to slide when turbulence collapses my canopy 10 feet off of the ground.

[FrogNog 1]

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In my not so humble opinion, the PLF is obsolete. The slide landing is, I think, a better and more safe alternative.

I'll try and remember to slide when turbulence collapses my canopy 10 feet off of the ground.

I only slide if I'm moving straight ahead with my feet in front of me and I'm going to hit the ground reasonably softly. Oh, wait, that's a lot like the setup for my standup landings!

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[beej 0]

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In my not so humble opinion, the PLF is obsolete. The slide landing is, I think, a better and more safe alternative.

no no no. I used to do the slide thing if i sensed i flared a little too late, til one day, i did it, but with too much sink, resulting in a compound fracture of my forearm, and 4 days in quincys blessing hospital.

----------------------------------------------------
If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[piisfish 135]

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In my not so humble opinion, the PLF is obsolete. The slide landing is, I think, a better and more safe alternative. I have had several situations where I slid. If I had tried to PLF in any of them, I would have been injured.

might be correct with a sabre2 at 1.66. Try and think about a navigator 280 at 0.5 arriving with only vertical speed...
..........
I have had a situation where I bounced on my knees. If I had tried to PLF or slide instead of continuing to fly the canopy, I would have get hurt ! And the image in my video wouldn't have been THAT cool...
Just remember she is a student, and at some stage, or depending on the situation, PLF is NOT obsolete.
...........
To the originator of the thread : remember, always ask your instructor/double check the information you might read here. Don't worry that much about your landings. They will be fine, maybe not all of them, but most. Some will require a PLF, on some you'll end on your bum. Most of them will be on your feet and you'll love it. And try and do some judo, it's all about learning how to fall.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 2,400]

>In my not so humble opinion, the PLF is obsolete.

The PLF is the best way to avoid injury on hard landings. It may not be cool, and thus you may not see it done often, but it will keep you alive and unbroken better than any other technique.

>The slide landing
> is, I think, a better and more safe alternative. I have had several >situations where I slid. If I had tried to PLF in any of them, I would
> have been injured.

The slide landing only works when you can get your vertical speed to near zero before impact. If not, sliding instead of PLFing can turn a bruised butt into a broken pelvis (or worse.)

[skr 1]

I think you're smart to get really good at PLFs.

I've made it through quite a few bad situations
with a PLF, including once having too much
fun with mountain curves and a motorcycle.

For technique any old timer who can still walk
and jump probably knows how and so do military
jumpers.

Start easy on something soft so you can get the
motion down without worrying about hurting yourself
and then accumulate a few hours practicing them.

With squares you mostly need front PLFs.

I don't think you need to jump off of moving trucks
and stuff like that. We used to do stuff like that, but
then we used to do a lot of stupid stuff that I wouldn't
do now.


I took some Judo once before I started jumping and
there was a lot of practice in how to fall down in
various ways which I think helped me in jumping.


If you learn how to fall down without hurting yourself
it removes some of the fear of landing and you can
then relax more and be in a better state to tune in
to how to fly your canopy.


Sliding in is understandable if you don't know how to
PLF, but you wear out your gear and get a lot of
commentary from your fellow jumpers, plus if you're
going down instead of across you can break a lot
of important stuff.

Skr

[Chrisky 0]

I can hardly think of any sport putting your body in a falling position as it is before doing a PLF.

The key to a good PLF (that is MY experience, from two weeks training at airborne school and 15 jumps on rounds into various ruff terrain types) are the following points:

KEEP YOUR FEET (ankles) TOGETHER like bolted. This is crucial.

Try bending your legs sideways prior to impact (away from flight direction, if any) (knees slightly bent as well), so that your feet touch the ground sideways. (Kinda like a saucer on the side, that will roll nicely on its round side.)
This way your ankle doesn't have to roll off the full impact force. This is essential, and i have seen a lot of illustrations showing the feet flat on the ground as the very first thing. That is wrong.

Then roll off over the side of your leg, back over your butt/back. (twist your upper torso/face away from earth). Arms are shielding your head on the sides, holding the risers. If you have enough momentum left, your feet will come over and back down in front of you.

Imagine a red line going from the side of your (i.e. right) ankle up your leg, over the (i.e. right) rear of your lower back across your back to your (i.e. left) shoulder. This is the "contact path" your body will roll over.

To be able to practice a PLF right, you should start on a box/chair to get you enough airtime to get your feet together and a little sideways movement(that will help you roll). You can actually start standing with your feet close together, then shift your weight over and tip over your own ankle.

Don't be afraid, i have been dropped from suspended hanging harnesses in 3m above the ground (no matts), as well as all my military jumps (including equipment and night drops) and have never hurt myself using this technique. My AFF-I made me instruct that part to my mates in groundschool. It makes a big Phump!, you feel a little compressed, but then you stand up, shake and walk away.
And that is all you want...

Edited to add: If you are going foward, use your arms (holding on to the risers) to turn your body 90 degrees to your favourite rolling side.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[kelel01 1]

Jennifer,

I know that in gymnastics, they teach people how to fall without hurting themselves, but there's no way those falls would work with a canopy over your head. I gave it a try a time or two, out of sheer habit.

However, I initially had a hard time with PLF's, and through lots of "unintentional practice" (read:shitty landings) I have gotten pretty good at them. Nothing beats a nice, soft stand-up landing, though! Don't worry about it . . . just practice. I think my FJC instructor was none-too-impressed with my first attempts at PLF-ing, and I'm still mostly in one piece.

Good luck, and I hope you get to jump this weekend!
Kelly

[mrhoop 0]

The main purpose of the PLF is to absorb energy, into 5 points of contact. You can practice by jumping off of things as low as one foot high. In my opinion, it is easier to do if you low ground speed. Most of the PLF's see under a ram-air look nothing like the ones I saw (and did) using a round military canopy. In the military we practiced PLF's all the time, especially before each jump. Remember keep your feet and knees together.

[b1jercat 0]

I might add a little tid bit to some of these good replies, I notice a lot of the pros doing streching excercises at the start of the day. It only makes sense to warm up your major muscles before jumping or praticing your PLFs. Hope this helps.

blue skies

jerry

[mjosparky 3]

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In my not so humble opinion, the PLF is obsolete. The slide landing is, I think, a better and more safe alternative. I have had several situations where I slid. If I had tried to PLF in any of them, I would have been injured.

Its not a matter of if, but of when you will bust your ass sliding when you should have done a PLF. This is skydiving not baseball.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Salamander 0]

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Arms are shielding your head on the sides, holding the risers.

Just remember that if you are landing a square you may want to flare before you hit the ground. So, your hands are not holding on to your risers (assuming you are not doing a rear riser flare).

If you are landing a round, holding on to your risers isn't that bad of an idea.

[Nullified 0]

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In my not so humble opinion, the PLF is obsolete. The slide landing is, I think, a better and more safe alternative.

Imagine your foot catching a divet or snagging on some overgrown grass or cereal bowls, and the rest of your body wanting to keep going...which it will. Ouch.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[Liemberg 0]

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In thinking about practicing on mats I would be worried about practing on a softer surface that in itself could promote injury.

I have always wondered about that line of thinking.
Must be military school / boot camp / no pain no gain kind of thing.

Learning a technique comes from practice. If you practice a lot in an environment where it is not likely that you hurt yourself, you might master the technique and then you could 'let down your guard' since the technique itself (that you now have mastered) is protection enough.
If you start practicing PLF's and from that start you make it as realistic as you could get it (jump from the back of a slowly moving truck on to concrete - to take it to the extreme) all you would learn is that the ground is hard and that you CAN hurt yourself.

If that is on your mind when you land it gets more likely that you hurt yourself, not less.

In gymnastics this principle is often applied - first somersault done in a harness, with mats on the ground. Once perfection is reached, the harness is taken away. Circus people start with the 'high wire' only 2 feet from the ground.

Come to think of it, it is completely feasible that this 'realistic' training of the students is in fact not so realistic at all. Remember that when you land (and roll / PLF) your parachute IS still supporting you in the landing (provided that you do it smoothly) - you bring your own mats, wherever you land! When you trained on the ground (i.e. no mats) and you came from a certain height, to 'ad realism', you could end up with a training situation that is worse than the real thing. If that installs landing fear in you, it might be counter productive.
Then again, practicing 'with all the right tools' but without good supervision doesn't appeal to me either...

Just my $0,02

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[nael 0]

I just started AFF last weekend, so this is just something I thought of after my first landing. I was told to get ready for a PLF (radio TA), but then told to flare for landing. Now, how are you supposed to be ready to PLF (with arms bent up to protect your face) if you are supposed to be doing a full landing flare? I landed fine, didnt think about it except to hear my TA say I should have PLF'd but later when I was thinking about it, I just wondered about this.

Obviously I will ask next time I'm at the dz, but for now, am I missing some vital part of the PLF preparation?? Either my arms are down, doing a full flare, or they are up for a PLF. Which is it?

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[mailin 0]

I could be wrong... but I wasn't taught to keep my hands up at my face. If you do a PLF correctly your face shouldn't have contact with the ground (theoretically). My JM told me that they were doing something new in training this year and that was to sort of lock your thumbs on flare so you don't have a tendancy to put your arms out in front of you and break something; which I'm having issues with. I'm super pesimistic about this - I just know I'm gonna break something

Jen

Arianna Frances

[piisfish 135]

noone is unbreakable, but you'll certainy be fine. Cheer up, take some courage, and who knows, maybe you'll never need to PLF in 1000s of jumps.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[nael 0]

I know what you're saying, and I know you're face isnt supposed to have contact with the ground, but you are also protecting your reserve handle by having your hands/arms up, say if you're landing in a tree or somewhere equally as nice, you need to protect it so that it doesnt cutaway the main before you have come to a standstill (so you dont end up falling when the main cuts away).

Obviously what I'm saying is all textbook stuff, I have zero experience in this, so I was just wondering if the experienced jumpers can tell me if I'm missing something or if you really do have to either flare, or be ready for a PLF??

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[nightjumps 1]

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KEEP YOUR FEET (ankles) TOGETHER like bolted. This is crucial.

Training technique: Place your feet approximately shoulder with apart. Now, rotate your ankles... notice you have 360 degrees of rotation.

Now, place your feet, ankles & knees together (knees slightly bent). Now, rotate your ankles. How many degrees of rotation do you have now?

If you need to do a PLF and your feet, ankles & knees are apart, you have an eight times greater chance of breaking an ankle. [credit: Army Airborne School]

[AndyMan 7]

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Any ideas on how to practice them?

Many of the moves in that linked video are from the martial arts, specifically jujitsu. The PLF is a modification of just one of the countless breakfalls used in jujitsu.

Anyone wanting to learn more about breakfalls would do very well to take some lessons in jujitsu.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.