I'm unhappy about the Skyhook ad in the October Parachutist

[billvon 2,400]

>Safety devices like the Skyhook don't allow retarded people to jump . .
>Safety devices give good jumpers a second chance to hopefully improve . . .

They do both. I have seen AAD's/RSL's save the best in the business and I have seen them save people who should never have been in the air to begin with. "You know, you really shouldn't be jumping; you're not really altitude aware enough when you do RW." "Hey, that's why I have a dytter AND a cypres!"

[bisqit999 0]

in any sport a revolutionary device comes along...although the Skyhook is still fairly new..is it possible that this device could be incorporated in our rigs just like when the AAD came along?

I never heard of anyone relying on an RSL to deploy their reserve....I'm sure that ANYONE deployed by an RSL was in the process of pulling silver anyways...if not than a discussion with an instructor is needed.

I see no problem with this add....we as trained skydivers already know the deal!!

[diablopilot 2]

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Aw, c'mon guys, do we REALLY have to encourage the use of insulting, everybody-already-knows-that advice?

Yes. In the last year a jumper went in with nothing out because she followed the arm-it-and-forget-it mentality that has grown up about AAD's.

NEVER assume a new jumper automaticaly knows what you think they know. I jumped with a level 8 AFF today. I put him through a harness drill even though he'd done it 8 times before. I wanted to KNOW that he knew the answers.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[HydroGuy 0]

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NEVER assume a new jumper automaticaly knows what you think they know. I jumped with a level 8 AFF today. I put him through a harness drill even though he'd done it 8 times before. I wanted to KNOW that he knew the answers.

When I said some instructors are better than others, JP is on the better list...

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[diablopilot 2]

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we have enough pompous, egotistical instructors floating around.

HEY! I resemble that remark

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Frenchy68 0]

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we have enough pompous, egotistical instructors floating around.

HEY! I resemble that remark

And I resent you resembling a remark.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[diablopilot 2]

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I never heard of anyone relying on an RSL to deploy their reserve....I'm sure that ANYONE deployed by an RSL was in the process of pulling silver anyways

Hang around the sport longer.

Hell I know of at least 2 incidents where the jumper waited for the AAD to deploy them.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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When I said some instructors are better than others, JP is on the better list...

Kiss ass.


Thanks

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[HydroGuy 0]

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we have enough pompous, egotistical instructors floating around.

HEY! I resemble that remark

No way dude...I have one instructor in mind who walks around the DZ loosely spouting negative comments towards newer jumpers faults...without ever countering with anything constructive. I personally have never been the target of the individuals bs, but having witnessed it time and time again I have lost repect for them for the most part.

On the other hand, I've recommended you to people: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1833239#1833239

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[Cloudi 0]

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Another point is, he doesn't jump one himself.

Sorry, I don't get your point. I don't jump one either, but that doesn't mean it won't help save lives.

The point, I think...this thread has taken as many twists and turns as a snake on acid , is that safety contributions such as the Skyhook are great to have as a back up when sh*t goes wrong, not as a replacement for correct EP's.

Despite what "appears" to be missing from the ad in question; the manual, the manufacturer, our training, and common sense tells us to complete our EP's and not "wait" for anything or anyone to do it for us. Judging by how quickly the Skyhook in particular seems to work, if you have time to wait for it to work, it isn't.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[MarkM 0]

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If you don't think 1 in 6 skydivers not following through on EPs is significant, that's one thing.

If you want to spend a couple seconds uselessly pulling and stowing a handle that does nothing once your reserve is already out(if your RSL beat you), feel free too.

But don't say because I don't do that that I'm not following my EPs. My EPs are to cutaway, get out my reserve, check canopy, spot, and fly to a safe LZ. Getting out my reserve always entails reaching for the handle, but I'm not gonna waste seconds pulling the thing if the reserve gets out before my fingers touch metal. I'll move on to the next chain of my EP.

[packerboy 3]

You know... I think it's funny this thread came up.

Just the other day I saw a car commercial (don't remember which car - good advertising) in which the driver was doing some pretty radical shit. After the commercial was over I thought... "Hmm, that's wierd. They didn't put the typical professional stunt driver on closed course don't attempt at home disclaimer on the bottom. Well, anyone stupid enough to do that shit is going to crash doing something else stupid if it isn't that."

So yeah, then I saw this thread and thought.. "If someone is stupid enough to take EP's from an ad, then it doesn't matter if that is what kills them, because something else will anyway. I wonder how Scott Lutz would've comprehended the ad? It would take a real Lutz to not get it... then again I bet Airtec sells replacement CYPRES cutters faster than 7-11 sells smokes. So maybe it's a good thing that people who would interpret the ad that way most likely SHOULD be jumping with a CYPRES AND a skyhook, because either one probably will save their ass someday.

Moral of the story: If you think a Skyhook is a replacement for a reserve ripcord just because you read it in an ad, and your dumbass is going to jump out of an airplane no matter what people say, please go out and buy a skyhook and a CYPRES because you are going to need them sooner or later.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[skybytch 259]

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I never heard of anyone relying on an RSL to deploy their reserve....I'm sure that ANYONE deployed by an RSL was in the process of pulling silver anyways...if not than a discussion with an instructor is needed.

Haven't been around long, eh?

I used to sleep with someone who let the RSL deploy his reserve when he had his second cutaway - said he wanted to see if it worked or not. I was an instructor then, and I did ream his ass.

[bisqit999 0]

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Haven't been around long, eh?

I used to sleep with someone who let the RSL deploy his reserve when he had his second cutaway - said he wanted to see if it worked or not. I was an instructor then, and I did ream his ass.

you're right...i haven;t been around that long but being that u reamed him than i assume that u agree with my point?

[Witelli 0]

I have a question. If you market a product, are you going to advertise that is doesn't work? The purpose of the Skyhook is to deploy your reserve when you pull the cutaway (at least that's what I think it does). And that's it!!! Nothing more and nothing less. And just like ANYTHING else that we might buy, it may work and it may not. So I don't think it's the job of the equipment marketing team to teach us how to skydive, that's the job of our instructors to teach us and our job to learn. Their job is to tell us what their product does. Just my $.02.

[nate_1979 9]

Agreed

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Frenchy68 0]

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The purpose of the Skyhook is to deploy your reserve when you pull the cutaway (at least that's what I think it does). And that's it!!! Nothing more and nothing less

No. If you pull the reserve handle on a total mal at terminal, the skyhook will not deploy the reserve. The reserve handle will. The skyhook is an RSL that uses the cutaway canopy in the extraction process of the reserve canopy. It also, I believe, makes sure such extraction happens after both risers have properly separated from the rig. At least, that's what I understand it does. I may be wrong...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Witelli 0]

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The purpose of the Skyhook is to deploy your reserve when you pull the cutaway (at least that's what I think it does). And that's it!!! Nothing more and nothing less

No. If you pull the reserve handle on a total mal at terminal, the skyhook will not deploy the reserve. The reserve handle will. The skyhook is an RSL that uses the cutaway canopy in the extraction process of the reserve canopy. It also, I believe, makes sure such extraction happens after both risers have properly separated from the rig. At least, that's what I understand it does. I may be wrong...

OK fine, then the advertisement is not misleading. The pictures in the advertisement have an open canopy. Plus that sounds like a good thing, it will decrease the probability of a 2 out entanglement. So what the advertisement is really saying is that if you have a main canopy over your head and you decide to cutaway, the reserve will deploy immediately. What's wrong with that?

[Remster 24]

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Plus that sounds like a good thing, it will decrease the probability of a 2 out entanglement.

And there we have it.

It MAY decrease the chance over a standard RSL opening, BUT, proper emergency procedures do too.

Remster

[billvon 2,400]

>The purpose of the Skyhook is to deploy your reserve when you pull
>the cutaway (at least that's what I think it does).

And this is exactly the reason some people are worried. You saw the ad and now you think that pulling the cutaway handle will deploy your reserve. Now, perhaps you realize that, even when it works correctly, there are many mals (total, PC in tow, some low drag mals) where pulling the cutaway handle won't do a thing. But there are other people out there who will read that ad and think "Pull my cutaway handle and smile! That's one less thing to worry about. Cool."

The good thing about AAD's, Skyhooks, reliable release systems, better pin/riser protection systems etc is that skydivers can screw up more often than they used to and still live. They can know less, learn less, worry about less and still survive their first 100 jumps just fine. The downside of that is there ARE now people who know very little, don't bother to learn, don't worry about anything - and they're making hundreds of jumps. This is modern skydiving. The old rules don't necessarily apply.

>And just like ANYTHING else that we might buy . . .

You won't die if you push the wrong button on your TV remote. That makes parachute equipment very very very different than almost anything else you buy.

[Witelli 0]

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even when it works correctly, there are many mals (total, PC in tow, some low drag mals) where pulling the cutaway handle won't do a thing.

Since we're all reading too deeply into this advertisement, this won't happen since it shows an open canopy overhead when Skyhook is enabled. And there must be an open canopy overhead (according to the advertisement) before you get to the "smile" point.

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But there are other people out there who will read that ad and think "Pull my cutaway handle and smile! That's one less thing to worry about. Cool."

Do you really think someone will throw away everything they've learned to an advertisement? I honestly can't see that, especially how EP's are so drilled in your head during AFF. Any normal person would question a new device and not just try it. I'm sure there are numbskulls that will try it, but that's their fault, not the advertiser.


The downside of that is there ARE now people who know very little, don't bother to learn, don't worry about anything - and they're making hundreds of jumps. This is modern skydiving. The old rules don't necessarily apply.

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True and that's the scary part. But still, not the advertiser's fault.

>And just like ANYTHING else that we might buy . . .

You won't die if you push the wrong button on your TV remote. That makes parachute equipment very very very different than almost anything else you buy. ***

Here's 2 examples, ABS and 4WD. Watching the SUV's fly down the highway in a snowstorm just makes me cringe. Anyway, there is nothing in the advertisement that states that the Skyhook is a life saving device. Honestly, all I get out of it is, if I pull cutaway under an open canopy, reserve should deploy. That's it. Everything else is up to the skydiver. And anyone who looks at an advertisement and thinks that's all there is to skydiving is a moron and shouldn't be in the sky.

Oh yea, here's an example. The idiot who burned herself with coffee at McDonalds. It was McDonald's fault that she didn't know not to spill hot coffee on herself. F'ing moron won millions.

So I guess the moral of my story is. Be careful Skyhook, because some dumbass will sue you, because they can.

[MakeItHappen 15]

I do not have my mag this month yet and have not seen the ad in question, but your comments really concern me.

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The purpose of the Skyhook is to deploy your reserve when you pull the cutaway (at least that's what I think it does). And that's it!!! Nothing more and nothing less.

Your statement is similar to 'wait for the AAD to fire.'
There are numerous scenarios were the SkyHook or an RSL or pull the cutaway would not open your reserve:
1. a total
2. a pilot chute in tow if you jump a throw out
3. a container lock
4. a horseshoe, riser hangup, line caught on grommet, etc
5. a mis-configured or disconnected SkyHook or RSL

All of these situations have happened and have claimed lives.

This is why instructors tell you EPs are 'cutaway-pull reserve' for partial malfunctions. It is not just 'cutaway'. You need to pull the reserve. You cannot count on an RSL, SkyHook or AAD to open your reserve.

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The pictures in the advertisement have an open canopy. Plus that sounds like a good thing, it will decrease the probability of a 2 out entanglement. So what the advertisement is really saying is that if you have a main canopy over your head and you decide to cutaway, the reserve will deploy immediately.

This statement just does not make any sense to me. How does a SkyHook decrease the probability of a 2 out entanglement? If you dump your main at the same time your AAD fires or a pilot chute in tow decides to release as you pull your reserve, you can have a 2-out situation: biplane, SBS, downplane or entanglement. The SkyHook or RSL would not change that situation. In a premature container opening with a throw out pilot chute still stowed situation, that you cutaway from, it might increase the probability of an entanglement.

Reserves do not always deploy immediately. There have been incidents, including some fatalities of reserve bag strip, container lock, reserve horseshoe etc. The SkyHook may reduce the probability of say container lock, but it may also increase the probability of occurrence of bag strip. It is really too early to tell the overall advantages of the SkyHook.

Bill Booth has created a lot of great things for skydiving. None of them have been fail-safe and took years to perfect. The throw out started as a belly band, then migrated to the rear of the leg strap and today is on the bottom of the container. This still has disadvantages. A premature container opening is a non-trivial horseshoe situation on a BOC. It took almost 20 years to get to the current day BOC, yet it still has malfunctions modes that do not exist on a pullout system.

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Honestly, all I get out of it is, if I pull cutaway under an open canopy, reserve should deploy. That's it.

One day you might have that loose RSL shackle that popped open during the jump or that you disconnected because the winds were high or a SkyHook installed improperly. At 1000 ft someone clobbers your canopy and you cutaway. I hope you remember how to pull the reserve handle.

Cut-away - Pull Reserve.
That’s it.

[Unless you have an SOS]


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Make It Happen
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[tso-d_chris 0]

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Oh yea, here's an example. The idiot who burned herself with coffee at McDonalds. It was McDonald's fault that she didn't know not to spill hot coffee on herself. F'ing moron won millions.

Godd example. 99.9% (I'm optimistic) of people who read the ad will know that RWS is not trying to tell people to not go for the reserve. For them, ads like this change nothing. But that one in a thousand puts RWS in danger of a lawsuit when they pull the cutaway handle and smile after a horseshoe malfunction. Maybe they survive and win, maybe their family sues because their enthusiastic deceased kin showed them the ad 37 times before in an effort to justify why they were spending so much money on brand new gear.

That is not good for manufacturers, dropzones, or skydivers.

If a jury is willing to award millions for spilled, hot coffee, do you really think it is that unlikely they would not do something similar if a quality attorney used the ad to their advantage against RWS in front of a jury?

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[labrys 0]

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Honestly, all I get out of it is, if I pull cutaway under an open canopy, reserve should deploy. That's it.

Jan already said it, but I'd like to repeat it. This is EXACTLY why it rubbed me wrong... the ad includes a reserve handle pull under a standard RSL. Why? Because that's our trained procedure. Why? Because amongst many other reasons, that RSL shackle may be or have been disconnected.

What you got out of that ad was that if you cutaway with a Skyhook under an open canopy, your reserve will deploy. The implication is clear to me anyway. Your Skyhook will not forgive a disconnected shackle any more than a standard RSL will. The ad implies otherwise.

Owned by Remi #?

[billvon 2,400]

>Do you really think someone will throw away everything they've
>learned to an advertisement?

Yes. It has happened before; several examples were given above. Now, it would take a real idiot to do that. They exist.

>I honestly can't see that, especially how EP's are so drilled in your
>head during AFF. Any normal person would question a new device
>and not just try it. I'm sure there are numbskulls that will try it, but
>that's their fault, not the advertiser.

You're right. But all things being equal, it's better to have more living skydivers than dead ones, even if they are numbskulls.

This is getting out of hand. It's not some big philosophical debate or anything. It's a minor nit about an ad, an ad from a company that's done a lot of very good things for the sport. Bill Booth agrees with the nit and will add a disclaimer. Numbskulls saved; case closed.