Should students be made to look at fatality pictures?

[brianfry713 0]

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Most BASE students nowadays get to see a carnage tape that includes a fair number of fatalities filmed from multiple angles (including very graphic close-ups) and countless cliff strikes, broken bones, etc.

While it provides a lot of technical info, the main goal is to give a reality check: this really may happen to you, and statistically - at least to some degree - will happen sooner or later.

As far as i know, up to this day, nobody decided to quit after watching the tape. It is hard to estimate how many accidents the tape may have prevented, but nobody called it a waste of time yet.

Of course most skydivers today are rather thin-skinned, and will likely provide very different statistics.

bsbd!

Yuri.

Which tape are you guys talking about? How would I get a copy of it? I'm a new BASE student (2 jumps at Bridge Day, with a FJC) so I'm interested in learning from others mistakes. I'm not keen on seeing others die, but I'd watch this particular video as you describe it to gain the technical knowledge.

BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative

[NickDG 23]

Almost everyone in my generation saw the film "Red Asphalt" while in high school about the time we were first getting our driver permits. I guess I was about sixteen at the time. It was terribly graphic for that or any other time.

To this day riding in a car still spooks me . . .

Viewing blood and guts must have some intrinsic value. Prospective members of the bomb squad view EOD people getting blown to pieces, and police trainees watch their future brethren blown away during routine traffic stops.

Carnage photos and videos seem to work in BASE jumping, but I'm not sure about skydiving since they are trying to sell something. From a DZO point of view it would be too much like welcoming a passenger aboard a modern airliner and then handing them a parachute. It's the Instructors who are caught in the middle. They have to get the point across that skydiving is dangerous without being all doom and gloom. The problem might be not all Instructors know how to do that.

How many times does a student up and quit in the middle of a first jump course? This is the big disconnect. I've often thought if we were totally open about the dangers inherent to the sport students would indeed get up and walk out more often. But, how many times could that happen before the DZO showed you the door? Instead we have all those clever comebacks when a student does ask the hard questions. In some cases I don’t think we even realize we are doing that.

Student – "Have you known anybody that died?"
Instructor – "Yes, but they always made a mistake, now show me those emergency procedures again."

Instead of:

Student – "Have you known anybody that died?
Instructor – "Yes, about thirty of my good friends are dead because of this stinking sport and I've been at it long enough to know while it’s a fun thing to do, it's not worth anyone's life."

That's a bit over the top, but you can see my point.

I'll always show a first jump class that photo of the Cessna ripped apart due to a premature opening to get the point across about protecting their handles, but there's no blood or bodies in it. . .

NickD BASE 194

[RhondaLea 3]

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Thoughts on what is admittedly a largely hypothetical situation?

Better to see the video than to be the video.

It's also better to see the video than to be present for the real thing.

If you can't accept either scenario, then maybe you need to rethink jumping...at the start.

I've heard all too many people, including instructors, apply the word "safe" to skydiving. Usually, the word "relatively" precedes it, but most people don't hear the qualifier.

Better to take the full dose at the beginning than to get in, make a bunch of jumps, lose your best friend and spend the rest of your life wondering what the fuck you were doing.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[tbrown 26]

I've seen four people go in, but have yet to watch a video of one and have no desire to either. I don't see any reason to bum students out like that. All you're going to do is drive some of them, or maybe even a lot of the away from the sport.

Skydiving is not as safe as driving a car, but we're still trying to get the idea across that it can be a safe sport. And for most students, it will be the happy memory of the one tandem tourist ride they take in their whole life. And God bless 'em, it's still one more jump than most people make. The ones who continue will inevitably lose a friend and eventually get to witness a "drop & bop" with their own eyes. They don't need no stinkin' film, let them enjoy their innocence while they still have it, what's the rush ?

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Vectracide 0]

I put up a poll a couple days later about "do you want to see skydivers burn in"? and the results were at first confusing. The written replies were mostly of those that were irritated at the thought of censorship, which by the way had nothing to do with the poll and my thoughts whatsoever. So, the majority of those replies were in favor of seeing dude go splat. Whatever, hey, its their right to watch what they want to watch. BUT....the proof is in the poll itself.

75% voted to NOT see the bounce. So, it seems that once again, the minority can make alot of noise making it seem that they are the majority, but in fact, 75% of all skydivers that voted in that poll did NOT want to see someone lose their life on tape.

I am however in favor of taking the neccesary steps to bring a student to understanding, no matter the level, if it is the only way to get thru the thick head of thiers. Should it be forced upon the whole, without prejudice? I am not so sure.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[OSOK 0]

I think it's a very tricky subject, affecting everyone in a different way. Looking at such pictures might make one person realize that this sport is more dangerous than it seems, but then another might think nothing of them.

If those kind of pictures can be the "line" that someone needs to cross to convince them that skydiving is not for them, then be it. It's better they get freaked out over a picture or video than seeing it in real life.

[Orange1 0]

My gut response is that nobody should be "made" to look at fatality pictures. There should be enough in the training to make students aware of the risks. In response to the original post about students believing the sport is safer than it is, well, i think that is also a kind of defense mechanism to actually 'fool' yourself into jumping in the first place!

Thinking on it a bit more, though, I think there could be an argument for "making" people - not necessarily just students - look at fatality pictures. I'm thinking people who do unsafe things in the air. Rather than just, say, a grounding, it could be: "this is the consequence of someone who did what you did but wasn't as lucky as you, and it could be you next time".... just my 2c.

btw, i just got the Skydivers Survival Series. A couple of people filmed or interviewed in there have died in my short time in the sport - just watching them talk/fly in the dvd and knowing that they are no longer around is enough to remind me of the significant risks in the sport.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[D22369 0]

I doubt that there would be any benefits to showing a "faces of death" style video.

pointing out the fatalities in the parachutist, and repeatedly stressing that yes, it can happen to anyone is enough.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[NWFlyer 2]

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pointing out the fatalities in the parachutist, and repeatedly stressing that yes, it can happen to anyone is enough.

Well-said. For me, as a student, reading the incident forums on here was enough to drive home the point that this sport is unforgiving and that I'd better stay on my toes and learn as much as I could.

Bounce porn is gratuitous. My imagination can do the work just fine.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Newbie 0]

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Didn't we all just have this discussion?

Yes, but for some reason that escapes my understanding, some people feel compelled to continously have the same discussions over and over again that center around the fact that (news flash) skydiving can kill you........

I think it's just some people's way of dealing with their fears to continually talk about it, to each ther own I guess.

And for anyone about to call "bullshit", ask yourself, why is this post in General Skydiving and not the Instructors or Safety & Training forums?

Its in General Skydiving for shock value, so more people can keep talking about "burning in" and "bouncing"..................and "views" and "replies" will be higher.

I didn't see any previous discussion on this, sorry if i repeated something already discussed.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Older jumpers thought it would help stop making people complacent and could therefore be a learning aid. I think someone even suggested running it at manifest. Although i don't think they were being completely serious,

Older jumpers, and I am one of them, have almost all seen fatalities in real life. A bounce video may be upsetting, but it's nothing new to them. And it's that perspective that makes them seem conservative and overly safety concious to noobies that haven't seen really bad things happen yet. With that said, I don't think students need to see bounce photos. Almost all students are quite aware of what can happen if they screw up badly enough. Maybe a few 100 jump wonders might need to be shown some gross stuff, though, but I've never resorted to that.

[skykittykat 0]

I think that if canopy control is taught to students in the right way, then there is no reason to show students fatality pictures. Students are nervous already and have a lot of information to absorb without showing them gruesome photos/videos.

Also, from speaking to a lot of instructors, telling a student to DO something is way better than telling them NOT TO DO THIS as it comes down to that whole visualisation thing (if you visualise doing something incorrect, the chances are you do it).

Another point, and I will probably get flamed here, but most deaths are occuring by people trying to execute high performance landings and a student will be nowhere near doing those types of landings during student status. OK, not all deaths occur from high performance landings - some from a toggle turn too close to the ground, but as mentioned previously, then if that is taught correctly at the time....

Sooner or later, a student who qualifies, will see a very bad landing/fatality and seeing something like that is horrible.

Liz

[PhreeZone 15]

What does teaching canopy skills have to do with it? I put up the numbers as of a few months ago but the hook turn numbers are down for this year and the unable to properly execute emergency procedures is up at a rate of double the hook turners. As of a month ago only 7/25 fatalities this year were canopy related and 2 of those were in the same collision. 3 were hook turns and 2 were avoidence turns. 6 people failed to correctly execute their Emergency Procedures and died.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1860213#1860213

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skykittykat 0]

***What does teaching canopy skills have to do with it? I put up the numbers as of a few months ago but the hook turn numbers are down for this year and the unable to properly execute emergency procedures is up at a rate of double the hook turners. As of a month ago only 7/25 fatalities this year were canopy related and 2 of those were in the same collision. 3 were hook turns and 2 were avoidence turns. 6 people failed to correctly execute their Emergency Procedures and died.***

OK, you are asking what has canopy skills got to do with it... 7 were related to canopy flying and 6 were due to not executing their emergency procedures. Already canopy related deaths outnumber those of lack of EPs by 1.... Of those 7 that were canopy related, some were directly responsible for disregarding that old saying - "I am a pilot and not a passenger under canopy"

As for those 6 people failing to properly execute their emergency procedures, well that is within themselves - you can teach someone all you can, but ultimately if those people panic, or whatever, in an emergency sitaution, there is nothing you can do.

Were those people students? If they weren't - why did they do nothing about properly executing their emergency procedures??? If not, why did they not follow what they were taught from ground school, even before they got in the air.

My point was that if STUDENTS ARE TAUGHT CORRECTLY...

You can teach a student how to execute emergency drills, but ulitmately, whomever is under a malfunctioning canopy, it is their choice whether to execute those emergency drills or not. Showing a fatality photo/video is not going to make a difference as to how they react.

Each and every student is taught how to IDENTIFY a malfunction and how to deal with it.

Liz

[DexterBase 0]

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Which tape are you guys talking about? How would I get a copy of it? I'm a new BASE student (2 jumps at Bridge Day, with a FJC) so I'm interested in learning from others mistakes. I'm not keen on seeing others die, but I'd watch this particular video as you describe it to gain the technical knowledge.

You won't get a copy of it. It's not something we circulate. If you happen to be in the same place as one of the (very few) jumpers that have a copy, you might ask to watch it in private. It's certainly not for thrills, entertainment, or any purpose other than taking a serious look at your motivation to BASE jump.

[billvon 2,435]

>pointing out the fatalities in the parachutist, and repeatedly stressing
>that yes, it can happen to anyone is enough.

That doesn't reach some people. It has all the impact of listening to the flight attendants do the evacuation briefing. Yeah, they have to do it, and you have to listen, but everyone knows it's not for real.

[RhondaLea 3]

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Well-said. For me, as a student, reading the incident forums on here was enough to drive home the point that this sport is unforgiving and that I'd better stay on my toes and learn as much as I could.

Bounce porn is gratuitous. My imagination can do the work just fine.

I have a pretty vivid imagination. I can assure you that nothing compares to the real thing.

As for reading the incident forums, it may have worked for you, but in reading some of the posts on these forums, it's pretty clear it doesn't work for a lot of people.

That said, there are those who don't learn from anything, even their own experience. I know a guy who managed to femur himself more than once. He doesn't jump anymore--the last time around, he ended up brain-damaged too.

But if even one person is subjected to what you refer to as "bounce porn" and rethinks his reasons for jumping, it's worth trying...if only to spare those who must deal with the aftermath of someone else's bad judgment.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[kelpdiver 2]

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But if even one person is subjected to what you refer to as "bounce porn" and rethinks his reasons for jumping, it's worth trying...

IFF - the time spent/wasted doesn't ngatively impact others. There are other deficiencies in AFF training - either due to lack of interest or the belief that the FJC can only contain so much retainable information.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Another point, and I will probably get flamed here, but most deaths are occuring by people trying to execute high performance landings and a student will be nowhere near doing those types of landings during student status.

It's more like 50%, and while the safety record for AFF is very good, they are already learning by example from the other jumpers for stuff they'll want to do in the future. And then there still remains the other 50%.

I don't see great value in death videos, but not for these reasons.

[Jeth 0]

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I think for every student helped by such videos, there would be several needlessly distracted, as you suggest.

I was plenty jacked up by the end of the FJC. Made even worse by getting weathered out and having no release. A carnage video would have contributed nothing useful.

I completely agree 100%. I was plenty aware (i.e. totally freaked) that I could die doing this on my 1st jump. Seeing that video would've just made me more upset, which wouldn't have made me any safer. (BTW, I didn't have to watch any crashes/see fatality pics in drivers ed.)

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[RhondaLea 3]

I hate replying to myself, but I received a rather venomous PM today from a tandem instructor (five years in sport) who took issue with a statement I made in another thread that tandem is not safe.

He insisted that it is. He also insisted that because I'm not a TI, I have no business making this statement. Much of the rest of the PM was self-aggrandization and verbal abuse. I asked him to take it public (he refused), went two rounds with him anyway, and then I blocked him.

That being said, if tandem instructors are telling their students this, and we know for a fact that AFF is statistically safer than tandem, what are AFF students hearing?

There was a poll in the base forum awhile back: "Is skydiving safe?"

138 people responded and 64 of them (46%) said it is.

It makes me wonder how people define safe.

My daughter was 11 when I started jumping. I never lied to her. I never told her it was safe for me to jump. I talked to her instead about quality of life and relative risk, and I made provision for her in the event something should happen to me.

She never saw me get hurt, but she witnessed a femur-in very early in my skydiving career--someone she knew and liked--and later she saw other bad injuries, until finally (when she was 16), she watched one of her dearest friends on the dz die. It was hard, but she dealt with it better than a lot of the other people around her.

If people don't know that skydiving can kill them, how can they do that? If they don't know what they're getting into, how can they talk to their families responsibly about the subject, and how are their families going to react when they go in if they had no preparation for the possibility?

But if a TI is telling me that tandems are safe, he got the idea from somewhere, and if he's disseminating the idea, it means there are going to be more and more people who believe that skydiving is no more risky than going to Great Adventure.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[kelpdiver 2]

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That being said, if tandem instructors are telling their students this, and we know for a fact that AFF is statistically safer than tandem, what are AFF students hearing?

Do we know this AFF is safer?

I ask since the tandem rate is pretty damn low considering there might be 300,000 done in a year. From 2000-2002, there was one fatality. (The last two years haven't been so good in the US, though)
Sport jumpers have a rate somewhere in the 1 in 60k to 1 in 100k jumps. Or ~1 in 1000/yr.

Drivers are at 1 in 6500/year. Skydiving is very dangerous. But doing a single tandem doesn't seem so. It's not safe enough that I'd go on a flamefest against you for saying it's "not safe", but I don't think I agree.

In any event, I didn't hear the same sort of 'this is perfectly safe' shit as a student that the tandems get told. Like the awful 'now you have the dangerous ride home' bit.

[RhondaLea 3]

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That being said, if tandem instructors are telling their students this, and we know for a fact that AFF is statistically safer than tandem, what are AFF students hearing?

Do we know this AFF is safer?

AFF has a statistically lower overall fatality rate (even with the adjustment for tandem usually being two fatalities in one jump). I can't find the numbers, but this used to come up periodically when someone would ask "First Jump: Tandem or AFF?"

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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