Skydiving Regulation

[fenceline 0]

Thought this should be placed here as it's "intent" is to make the sport safer. Me, I'm not crazy about it right now. Remember, this is out of Ontario Canada, only a proposal right now, just went through it's first reading on June 1/04. Thoughts???



http://www.ontla.on.ca/library/bills/381/87381.htm

[bodypilot90 0]

http://www.ontla.on.ca/library/bills/381/87381.htm
clicky

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I didn't read the whole thing, but it just looks like the federal government is going to make CSPA membership and licensing mandatory to jump in Canada. Am I missing something?

Chuck

[thelem 0]

I don't see the problem either. In the UK we are required to have BPA membership, which comes with third party insurance. Likewise with USPA in America.

What are the current rules in canada?

[riggerrob 558]

Yes Skymonkee,
you are missing something, but no worse than the Ontario Legislature.
Hee! Hee!
This bill is doomed as it contains several major flaws.

First it is incredibly vague about standards.
For example, what will be the pre-levels to issuing a freefall permit in Ontario?

Secondly, it infringes on federal jurisdiction. Parachuting is already regulated by Transport Canada. Canadian Air Regulations sections 623.36 and 623.38 mention CSPA, USPA and FAA standards for skydiver and rigger licensing.
For example, Transport Canada regulates parachute manufacturing processes (Airworthiness Manual, Subchapter B, sections 537101 and section 537.103 specifically mentions TSO C23D).

It is odd that the Ontario Legislature would contemplate regulating freefalling when the federal government deliberately avoids skydiving. CARS contain the bare minimum of restrictions on skydiving, primarily to prevent skydivers from endangering the public.

[winsor 187]

Why do they have to be so timid when preparing regulations? Why not grab the bull by the horns and pass legislation with some teeth?

If they simply made it a felony to bounce and a misdemeanor to be injured, it would get to the heart of the matter. Now, in addition to having to deal with physicians and coroners, you will have to answer to the police! Make safety the law!

I have plenty of other sure-fire solutions if you need them.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[Ron 7]

In the Us you are not "required" to join the USPA to skydive.

Only at a USPA member DZ.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[fenceline 0]

Hey Chuck,

The Ontario Gov't is looking to make licensing mandatory in that province, but as another has said on this post, the proposed act is very vague. Will CSPA be the licensing body, or will a new licensing system involving the military be the standard? Apparently several military riggers have been contacted to advise the bills writers of what would be appropriate for sport parachuting. This is odd, as mentioned on the CSPA Chat by another, the Canadian Military SARTECHS (Search and Rescue Airborne) have been using the CSPA Coaching and Instruction Program to learn how to teach rescue parachuting. They must feel that CSPA has some sort of expertise when it comes to safety in freefall. Why else would they be getting rated on the civilian system?

As for how things work in Canada, you must be license to jump on a CSPA dropzone by and FAI affiliated organization (CSPA, USPA, etc). CAPS is another jump organization in Canada, although less prevalent that CSPA. However, CSPA is the only FAI affiliate, via the Aero Club of Canada. CAPS is not FAI affiliated. Both have been endorsed by Transport Canada to conduct sport parachuting activities.

Jason

[tinfoil 0]

Looks like the bill would go beyond a CSPA license, it would require some sort of license issued by the provincial government for any person that wants to skydive.
But this is a private members bill that was introduced by an MPP of the opposition. They don't usually pass and I'm sure the vagueness of the bill won't help.

“- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ”

[AndyMan 7]

Strangely, the bill would also forbid most forms of cliff diving, which often involved "frefalling" for over 10 meters.

The simple fact that this bill even made it to the floor of the legislature is a tremendous failure of the CSPA.

I really do hope they get their heads out of their posteriors, and do it quickly.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[tinfoil 0]

Quote

The simple fact that this bill even made it to the floor of the legislature is a tremendous failure of the CSPA.

I really do hope they get their heads out of their posteriors, and do it quickly.

_Am

Well, not really. The bill has only been introduced. It hasn't been debated, and I believe that the only motion carried (done by the opposition MPP who introduced the bill) was to send it to committee.
If it comes to a second reading, that is when a debate would occur, and when any CSPA lobbying would have an impact.
But, as it has been said before, private members bills are very rarely passed.

“- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ”

[macey 0]

In the UK we are not "required to be a member of the BPA" in order to jump. It is just that there are
no longer any non-BPA affiliated DZ's (as far as I know). In days gone by, there were. You could jump at these DZ's without BPA membership. That would still be the case today, if a non-affiliated DZ were to open. I know that that is unlikely, but I was just making the point that BPA membership is not compulsorary, as far as I am aware. Of course, things could have changed in this respect since I started in '73 when there were a number of non-affiliated DZ's in the UK.

[OnYourBack 0]

Make safety the law!

I wonder if you think it should be against the law to run with scissors in your hand. Do you truly believe that is the job of government. I personally do not want the government deciding what I can and cannot do regarding my own personal safety as long as I'm not endangering others. And, where do you draw the line with a policy like that.

[JohnMitchell 14]

I'm not happy about anything in a sport requiring a government permit to do it. As far as gear requirements, doesn't Canada have TSO regs similiar to our U.S. regs? Sounds like grief-driven legislation that won't help anyone, just create more laws to run afoul of.

[billvon 2,433]

>I wonder if you think it should be against the law to run with scissors
> in your hand. Do you truly believe that is the job of government.

I assume you have not met Winsor; had you met him it would be pretty clear that he does not believe that the government has any role in forcing us to be safe. I think he was employing sarcasm in his post.

[Scrumpot 1]

A relevant reference to regulation, common sense, and actual practice (ie: mishap regardless of regulation) follows:

From AvWeb, Aviators and aviation enthusiasts premier on-line e-publication & resource:

Tandem Hang-Glider Pilot Pleads Guilty To Manslaughter

6/14/2004
Eleni Zeri, a 23-year-old tourist from Greece, died in March 2003 during a tandem hang-glider ride in the mountains of New Zealand after the pilot took off without properly securing her to the glider. Pilot Steve Parson, 53, of Canada, admitted that he had made a mistake, and last Friday apologized in court to the victim's mother. "Eleni was very brave. I'm so very, very sorry," Parson said. He was sentenced to serve 350 hours' community service and pay NZ$10,000 in reparation. After launch, when Parson realized Zeri was not secured, he wrapped his legs around her to try to keep her with him. She told him she couldn't hold on, and fell 500 feet to her death. New Zealand's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said it will start next month to review and overhaul the regulations that affect commercial adventure-aviation operators. However, a CAA spokesman told the New Zealand Herald the review was not a response to Parson's case. "What happened in his case was in no way related to the regulations," said Bill Sommer. "The company he worked for had safety procedures in place that were in line with regulations, but he failed to follow them." However, perhaps current regulations need to be streamlined to make compliance easier for operators and the CAA, he said.
-------------

Notice the references to REGULATION within. So anybody, ...anybody want to tell me how REGULATION in of itself would have had ANY impact or affected any difference at all as to this incident?

Sheesh.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

A relevant reference to regulation, common sense, and actual practice (ie: mishap regardless of regulation) follows:

From AvWeb, Aviators and aviation enthusiasts premier on-line e-publication & resource:

Tandem Hang-Glider Pilot Pleads Guilty To Manslaughter

6/14/2004
Eleni Zeri, a 23-year-old tourist from Greece, died in March 2003 during a tandem hang-glider ride in the mountains of New Zealand after the pilot took off without properly securing her to the glider. Pilot Steve Parson, 53, of Canada, admitted that he had made a mistake, and last Friday apologized in court to the victim's mother. "Eleni was very brave. I'm so very, very sorry," Parson said. He was sentenced to serve 350 hours' community service and pay NZ$10,000 in reparation. After launch, when Parson realized Zeri was not secured, he wrapped his legs around her to try to keep her with him. She told him she couldn't hold on, and fell 500 feet to her death. New Zealand's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said it will start next month to review and overhaul the regulations that affect commercial adventure-aviation operators. However, a CAA spokesman told the New Zealand Herald the review was not a response to Parson's case. "What happened in his case was in no way related to the regulations," said Bill Sommer. "The company he worked for had safety procedures in place that were in line with regulations, but he failed to follow them." However, perhaps current regulations need to be streamlined to make compliance easier for operators and the CAA, he said.
-------------

Notice the references to REGULATION within. So anybody, ...anybody want to tell me how REGULATION in of itself would have had ANY impact or affected any difference at all as to this incident?

Sheesh.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

I'm not happy about anything in a sport requiring a government permit to do it. As far as gear requirements, doesn't Canada have TSO regs similiar to our U.S. regs? Sounds like grief-driven legislation that won't help anyone, just create more laws to run afoul of.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

TSO C23d was ... adopted by the Canadian Ministry of Transport 06/01/94.

The deceased was wearing a Javelin manufactured under TSO C23c.

Differences between "c" and "d" are insignificant.

[sducoach 0]

Bill,

Jim has not met Windsor but leave him alone, until the guy got a real job he used to roll his own cigarettes"real ones"!

Jim, go back to work..........


Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[OnYourBack 0]

My apologies to Windsor, his sarcasm is evident to me now. Regulations make me jumpy.

JE, I am working but I have extra time in my day now that I buy the good smokes.

[teason 0]

Just some clarification on Canada's recognition of TSO

This is from the CARS
"Where a TSO is referenced as an acceptable design standard, it is intended to mean that the design standards contained with the TSO are an acceptable minimum standard and the equipment does not necessarily need to have a TSO. "

And now on to my 2 cents on the legislation. An Ontario DZ recently went through a provincial inquiry. Realizing that public opinion was in favour of skydiving laws, they table some crap to please the public.
The Canadian Government has no intention of truely regulating skydiving that's why they are minimal regs in place. http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/REGSERV/CARAC/CARS/cars/602e.htm#602_26

The last time there was a push to regulate Skydiving, TC instead took the safe route and over regulated Jump planes. That's all they are willing to do. The only time the CARs require you to even have a rigger pack your reserve is for a Demo (see the above link), other than that it's up to CSPA and CAPS to self regulate.

The Gov WILL stay out of it, the bill is solely for political points, that's why it is so flawed!!!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[winsor 187]

Quote

Make safety the law!

I wonder if you think it should be against the law to run with scissors in your hand. Do you truly believe that is the job of government. I personally do not want the government deciding what I can and cannot do regarding my own personal safety as long as I'm not endangering others. And, where do you draw the line with a policy like that.

Wait a minute - are you telling me that it is LEGAL to run with scissors? Next you will be telling me that it is lawful to go swimming within half an hour of eating, or to jump up and down on the bed!

If this is true, there ought to be a law! If something dangerous exists, it must be because there was a law they forgot to pass. Yeah, that's the ticket.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[riggerrob 558]

teason,
This a point about Canadian bureaucracy that has always confused the shorts off of me.
This whole concept of having a law on the books that no one intends to enforce.
It seems like a huge waste of effort, only to address some widow's psychological pain.

[teason 0]

yeah, some seek to profit on their pain too. Welcome to politics.
That's why it's up to us to learn from mistakes of others and to give those who have gone before a legacy of making the sport safer!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.