400-way

[skydiverek 60]

I know it is scheduled for Jan./Feb. of 2006 in Thailand. Five Hercules airplanes. Anyone has more info on details like location, exit altitude, break-off altitude, technicalities, etc.? I cannot imagine that - it is gonna be HUGE !

But I think is it totally doable - 357-way record was held for over 13 seconds (excluding time when one jumper close to the base got confused, dropped a grip, and then redocked... BTW, does it make it a 2-point 357-way ?). Plus, now there is no 3 second requirement (That also means there could be a record without a photo, if it happened "between" the film frames ).

Good luck guys!

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Another lemming jump? In Thailand of all places. Phuket.

[billvon 2,478]

Probably very similar to last year. Exit around 25K, breakoff starting around 7K, oxygen until 10 seconds before exit, 120ish way base with wackers.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

Another lemming jump? In Thailand of all places. Phuket.

Did you have some place better we can go to with that kind of air support?

A beautiful place with beautiful people, what more could you ask for....

Keepin' it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

Quote

...120ish way base with wackers.

>>A 120 way base?!
I couldn't imagine being in a 120-way and have that just be the base. The visuals for the divers just must be spectacular. How big a chunk of people can you launch at once out of one of those planes?

[billvon 2,478]

>How big a chunk of people can you launch at once out of one of those planes?

You could probably chunk a 16-way, but at the last World Team I think we were just taking 6 out.

[Stumpy 256]

Is that coz it is easier to launch a 6-way and have people dock than launch a 16 way and not funnel?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[billvon 2,478]

> Is that coz it is easier to launch a 6-way and have people
>dock than launch a 16 way and not funnel?

Not sure, but I think it was just simplicity. It would have been harder to launch the 12-way base as designed because it would have been big. Instead of launching a big, easy to launch chunk and then turning to the first point, they just launched the 6 way base and had the slot flakes dock quickly.

Another consideration on these sort of dives is that having a stable target is critical - so that 6 way has to be dead on heading right out the door, and has to keep the same fallrate within a few mph. I think that's what they were concentrating on.

[Stumpy 256]

Thanks - i'm curious about that sorta thing! (although i'm not sure i need to worry about the technical aspect of a 400 way just yet! )

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

although i'm not sure i need to worry about the technical aspect of a 400 way just yet!

Why not? I enjoy reading the information that Bill posts about these bigways, although that's not my thing in skydiving and I don't have the skill to be even ground crew for a 400-way, I find it interesting and fun to learn about.

If your goal is bigways and superbigways then there's nothing wrong with learning the technical aspects now as you still continue to learn how to truely fly your body. The knowledge won't hurt you, I see it as only helping you understand what goes into these sorts of dives as you progress and start going to big way camps.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 1,683]

Quote

Quote

although i'm not sure i need to worry about the technical aspect of a 400 way just yet!

Why not? I enjoy reading the information that Bill posts about these bigways, although that's not my thing in skydiving and I don't have the skill to be even ground crew for a 400-way, I find it interesting and fun to learn about.

If your goal is bigways and superbigways then there's nothing wrong with learning the technical aspects now as you still continue to learn how to truely fly your body. The knowledge won't hurt you, I see it as only helping you understand what goes into these sorts of dives as you progress and start going to big way camps.

Agreed. I find the engineering issues of big ways quite fascinating. There are some particular dynamics of big sequential formations in particular that have not, IMO, been completely worked out yet. I have some ideas, in case any organizers want a physicist consultant

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[headoverheels 292]

Quote

Agreed. I find the engineering issues of big ways quite fascinating. There are some particular dynamics of big sequential formations in particular that have not, IMO, been completely worked out yet. I have some ideas, in case any organizers want a physicist consultant

Hey, John, you should have seen the 3D animations of the 372-way dive -- build, break-off, etc., that were used to brief the group before the first jump. Could be stopped at any point, and the POV rotated, raised, lowered. Totally impressive. The animation built a bit more symmetrically than the real dive!

[SkiD_PL8 0]

Were the jumpers in the animation moveable as in did they move legs and arms or were they static? Did they move vertically as well as horizontally? It wouldn't be all that hard to take 372 copies of a skydiver model and animate the dive horizontally without them moving limbs. If they did vertical as well or had them moving their control surfaces that would be very impressive. Anyway I could get my hands on the file? Know what format it was in?

Greenie in training.

[headoverheels 292]

As far as jumper positions, it was exactly like being in the air with the dive, and watching the waves fly in and dock. Yes, they were moving vertically as well as horizontally. It's been a while, and I don't remember if they moved body parts. I don't know what software was used, but it seemed to be interactively run. I don't think that it was a video clip which would run without the 3D animation software, but perhaps an output to a standard video format could be made. Maybe someone here knows the diver that did the animation.

[SkiD_PL8 0]

I was actually interested in the raw animation file. I do 3d design and animation and would love to see what methods they used to do it. I would guess it was made with a program such as 3D Studio Max or a similar program, any of which would allow you to change your PoV on the fly.

Greenie in training.

[kallend 1,683]

Quote

Quote

Agreed. I find the engineering issues of big ways quite fascinating. There are some particular dynamics of big sequential formations in particular that have not, IMO, been completely worked out yet. I have some ideas, in case any organizers want a physicist consultant

Hey, John, you should have seen the 3D animations of the 372-way dive -- build, break-off, etc., that were used to brief the group before the first jump. Could be stopped at any point, and the POV rotated, raised, lowered. Totally impressive. The animation built a bit more symmetrically than the real dive!

I saw that, and it was a very impressive piece of animation, but I don't think the dynamics was physics based. I think the jumper behaviors were pre-programmed. IOW, it was more of a 3-d animated cartoon than a true simulation.

I'm interested in doing the fluid dynamics of large formations. I've been thinking about this for some time and have reached the conclusion that you can make a one-point skydive with almost any arrangement (although obviously some will be more difficult than others), but that some designs for big sequentials are doomed to fail on account of their fundamental aerodynamic properties that no amount of skill can compensate for.

I don't always buy the oft heard complaint from organizers "you docked and then stopped flying". Sometimes it's the engineering that's the problem.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydiverek 60]

I know I downloaded these animations from this page, one year ago: http://www.theworldteam.com/News.htm

[dragon2 0]

Sneak preview:

On the WT website in the news section there are a few bits of the animations, greatly compressed and only the ones that play as movies.

The Thailand WT2004 DVD however is finished and worldwide shipping has just started.
On the DVD is a movie compiled of some of those animations, and if you put the DVD in your PC I put some of the original VR files (Quicktime) on it as well (couldn't put them all on there, as the DVD was completely FULL ).

No idea if this DVD will be for sale though, otherwise ask somebody who was on the team.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 0]

The guy who made em is Craig Buxton.
The movies play in Quicktime Pro.

Some small clips here:
http://www.theworldteam.com/news/0126.htm

For some of the full movies and the compilation movie, wait for your WT2004 DVD

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[upndownshop 0]

Quote

Probably very similar to last year. Exit around 25K, breakoff starting around 7K, oxygen until 10 seconds before exit, 120ish way base with wackers.

A 120 way base. Reminds me of the 300 way in Eloy. My mother calls me and says J they got and we still have a few days left. She said they were going for a 324 way with a 300 Base. I thought that was great!
Oh well funny at the time.

[billvon 2,478]

>I don't always buy the oft heard complaint from organizers "you docked
>and then stopped flying".

I think that while there are certainly effects that manifest themselves in very large formations, the relaxing that often accompanies a dock is, 99% of the time, what causes the problems organizers refer to.

There's a lot to designing and flying large formations, and not all of it is obvious at first. The wake that surrounds large formations, the change in relative wind as you approach, interference effects from people who aren't even touching you - I've been lifted up and out of my slot by a 'mouse' who never physically touched me. The fault was mine; I was near the base and did not have enough weight/flexibility to compensate for the additional induced drag. I fixed it on the following dive.

> Sometimes it's the engineering that's the problem.

While there's something to that, I think it would be more accurate to say "some skydivers do not have the range to be able to compensate for what happens in a multi-point bigway." Given the talent, it's possible to compensate for all manner of problems in big, essentially 2-D RW formations.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

I'm interested in doing the fluid dynamics of large formations. I've been thinking about this for some time and have reached the conclusion that you can make a one-point skydive with almost any arrangement (although obviously some will be more difficult than others), but that some designs for big sequentials are doomed to fail on account of their fundamental aerodynamic properties that no amount of skill can compensate for.

Remember "the hurricane"? The 80-way base of intertwining lines for the 140-way? Boxman tried to do that as a 40-way for a long time and finally figured it out.

The basic problem was that most formations get structural integrity from side-to-side and front-to-back links.

Two problems:
Once you release the grips, the intertwining lines have all the burble of the lines in front and back of them, but none of the stability/strength of grips. People had to do some excellent flying of their slots to stay in one spot.

Second, the 8-way base was set to go 125+ mph. As the formation built, everything slowed down. When the grips were released on the base, the slower-falling group, formerly attached to the base, floated as the base rapidly sank. This caused a problem with the transition from point one to point two.

Engineering can be a problem. Most big-way groups rely on the standard solutions though.

I believe that there are some people who don't get it.
Fly the slot, then take grips.
Lift the arms and look under to keep the fallrate up.
Legs out, drive in, and take the pressure off the base.

Out of 50 experienced skydivers on a formation, 4 or 5 will seem to not take a serious mental attitude towards making it work. They seem too casual about it. Remember the guy who showed up for the "gear on - 7:30 call" at 7:40 with his suit on his arm?

[skydiverek 60]

I think it is time to bump this thread to the top: http://www.theworldteam.com

• Quote

[valcore 0]

Ok I know that when I do 6 ways they float a little. Does anyone have any Idea what the fall rate would be for something that large? Faster or Slower?

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

[skydiverek 60]

Normal - around 120 mph.