Praetorian 1 #1 March 23, 2006 Some recent posts got me thinking (sorry if this is a bit morbid) but I believe the often quoted "do everything right and you can still die" my question is ... when is the last time this happened? I'm gonna cheat and ask that aircraft accidents be excluded, I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but it seems to me MOST of the fatal incidents have major points where the diver did the WRONG thing, or at the least did not do the right thing. Mid air rigging attempts, no aparent attempt to pull the reserve these type of things. I'd also like to exclude the experimental jumps, (like the tiny tiny main that spun its jumper into the ground so fast (spin rate) he could not cut away.. I realise that without experimentation our sport would not progress, but I'm talking here about jumps the average jumper makes, not test pilots. ... I'm not sure where the choice to or not to have a cypres/aad falls, the short answer I guess is, if you impact without any open chute, and no attempt to pull a reserve then I don't believe the choice to jump without an AAD can be called "correct" but that is pure hindsight, and failing to pull the reserve can be called the wrong move anyway. SORRY for the long post, just trying to narrow the field enough to maybe get some usefull discussion out of this ramble Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #2 March 23, 2006 John Appleton The tandem students ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #3 March 23, 2006 James Martin, January 2000 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #4 March 23, 2006 Years ago, there was an incident at a DZ near me where a jumper, got to the bottom end of the skydive, deployed her main, it had some sort of malfunction, she decided to cut-away her main and pull her reserve handle... which she did in the correct order and at sufficient altitude, her main seperated normally, her reserve came out, line-strech, canopy came out of the free-bag, all as advertised... but her reserve canopy did not inflate becasue the person who had last repacked the reserve had left a clamp in-place which prevented her reserve from inflating... she wistled in under a streemer, basically. This is the only incident I'm aware of (doesn't mean there isn't more, just they're not known to me) that I can think of where the deceased did everything right and still died. My 2 cents... but, other incidents like somone ridding a mal all the way in, or a low cut-away followed by no reserve pull or too low a reserve pull to do any good always, to me, seem to have another element of "if they had done this or that" it wouldn't have turned out that way. Remember, skydiving is not certain... it can kill you. However, the likelyhood that you'll do everything right on a skydive, but still die is very very remote. It is more likely you'll be killed skydiving because of you not dealing properly with an emergency situation... remember, in most every incident, post-incident analysis can point to a chain of events that if that chain had been broken, the indicent would not have happened... OR... given recent skydiving history (say the past 8 to 10 years), it is more likely you'll kill yourself under a perfectly good main canopy due to "pilot error" while flying your canopy from opening back to the ground. Yes, James Martin, sorry, I had forgotten that one too, my bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 March 23, 2006 You may die on the road too nevertheless you do everything right. Its hard to live without luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #6 March 23, 2006 Shannon Embry at the women's record attempts. Perris 2002. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #7 March 23, 2006 True, I'd rather be lucky then good any day... but it doesn't stop me from trying to be good... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #8 March 23, 2006 Lisa Gallager - 8/26/2001 could probally qualify also.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #9 March 23, 2006 QuoteI don't like to speak ill of the dead, but it seems to me MOST of the fatal incidents have major points where the diver did the WRONG thing, or at the least did not do the right thing. Yes, MOST accidents are the direct result of at least one mistake. But that does not remove the fact that "shit happens" and when it does even your best efforts may not be enough to save you. QuoteI'm not sure where the choice to or not to have a cypres/aad falls, the short answer I guess is, if you impact without any open chute, and no attempt to pull a reserve then I don't believe the choice to jump without an AAD can be called "correct" but that is pure hindsight, and failing to pull the reserve can be called the wrong move anyway. If you bouce without an AAD or RSL...then you still screwed up since you didn't pull the reserve yourself either. So you can exclude those. Good question. Some that come to mind. There are more, but I can't find the jumper wrong in these cases. 1. 6/9/1996 Lake Elsinore, CA Description: Decriptions are sketchy. The jumper was at approximately 50 feet, being guided by radio. His canopy suddenly went into line twists, and he was dropped immediately to the ground. There were 10 witnesses, and none of them saw the dust devil. 2. 10/20/1996 Wallace, NC Description: After a normal two-way from 15k out of a King Air, the deceased experienced horseshoe malfunction. The main pilot chute was still in it's pouch when the main deployed. The cutaway and reserve were both pulled, however, the reserve deployed into the main, still attached at the pouch. The reserve deployment was therefore fouled, and an unsurvivable landing followed. Reports indicate the problem began after breakoff, so it's likely he grabbed loose bridle, or only partially extracted the PC, and a loose pin allowed the bridle to pull the pin. The main closing loop was found to be intact. It was a Rear of Leg pilot chute, with a spandex pouch. 3. 10/22/1996 Skydive Arizona, AZ Description: Person A was part of a 4 way CRW team. He exited 3rd and Person B exited 4th. Person B had an opening hesitation plus a 180 degree off heading openning, and they collided while Person A was front risering for the first hookup. The canopies hit first, spun, then their bodies collided. They spun for for a while, and the wrap cleared. Person A was found dead on the scene while person B was critically injured. Person B was removed from life support 6 days later, as there was no sign of brain activity. 4. 1/30/1997 Taupo, New Zealand Description: After cutting away from a malfunction, it appears one riser hung up, while the side with the RSL released, casuing the reserve to deploy between the remaining riser. This riser then seperated, and the main ending up choking off the reserve. The pair decended on the partially inflated main which was caught on the wholly uninflated reserve. 5. 5/30/1997 Cross Keys, NJ Description: While videoing a 2-way CRW jump, a wrap occured at about 4000' between the camera flyer and another dive participant. The deceased cutaway, but the slider stowed behind his head became caught on part of his camera helmet and thus his main failed to seperate. The reserve became entangled with the main and he hit the ground hard. He was alert and concious that evening, but died of internal injuries the next morning while in surgery. The deceased was taking part in as well as or videoing the CRW dive. He was likely jumping a Jedei, which is not a canopy designed for CRW. He indicated he had to deploy the reserve because lines were around his neck and he was starting to pass out. 6. 6/22/1997 Umatilla, FL MAL? 42 7500 Y?/Y Description: At the end of a normal tandem skydiver, the student pulled the ripcord at about 5500 feet. The left main riser broke, which in turn activated the reserve static line lanyard (RSL). The RSL immediately pulled the reserve ripcord cables while the right-hand main riser was still attached 7. 6/23/1998 Cross Keys, NJ Description: PC in Tow, reserve deployed, entagement. 8. 7/19/1998 Skydive Chicago, IL Description: Incident occured during the 300-way record attempts. At break-off time from the 3rd record attempt, she was involved in a FF collision which rendered her unconcious. No attempt at deployment was evident 9. 8/9/1998 Kapowsin, WA Description: After a normal tandem skydive, at about 300-400 feet, one side of the canopy collapsed (perhaps due to thermals off of the runway), causing the tandem pair to spiral into the ground. The student died immediately, and the instructor was taken to hospital by helicopter. 10. /20/1999 Kingman, KS Description: On what may have been the sunset load at Skydive Wichita a young jumper with about 200 jumps to his credit and a very experienced skydiver with perhaps two or three thousand jumps were practicing their head-down skills. The young jumper, a few days short of his 21st birthday and current overall, had started getting serious about freeflying in the months before the accident. The experienced jumper, although also current and holding a tandem and AFF rating, was not as experienced at freeflying. The two-way exited the C-182 at 10,000 feet and were flying face-to-face, more or less, and were exchanging handgrips, alternating right-to-right and then left-to-left. At about 6,000 feet the more experienced jumper accidentally snagged the younger jumpers "D" ring and his reserve fired while he was head-down. The younger jumper was also wearing a Sony digital camera on a Bonehead. Anyway, although in extreme pain, the younger jumper landed his reserve canopy and was taken to the local hospital. He and his father and sister (who also are avid skydivers) then went to a major hospital in Wichita. As it turned out, shortening the story considerably, the young jumper had not only fractured some vertebrae in the cervical spine but also ruptured the cerebral artery in the brain stem area. He was declared dead on June 22, 1999 11. 1/8/2000 Perris, CA Description: After a 10-way, the deceased deployed his main and had one of his vectran suspension lines catch underneath the top grommet on his main container (a Reflex), at a point about 18" from the riser. He pulled his cutaway and reserve, but the reserve entangled with the main, which was still caught around the main flap. 12. 2/28/2000 Skydive Arizona, AZ Description: Upon main deployment, one of the spectra suspension lines caught on a grommet. The grommet in question is the one which retains the main closing loop, and (on the Javelin rig in question) this grommet is affixed to the reserve-main dividing wall. The reserve was deployed (unclear if a cutaway was performed) and entangled with the hung-up mess. 13. 3/24/2001 Louisburg, NC Description: A four way and a videographer exited a twin otter from 13000'. The videographer filmed the 4-way, which went normally until breakoff. The videographer was supposed to pull from the center at 4000. Members of the 4-way observed him at 2500' with a bag locked main. On the ground, the main suspension lines were found entangled with the eyepiece on the helmet. The reserve pilot chute was entangled with the main, and (apparently?) both stows on the reserve were out. The reserve ripcord had been pulled, and was not found, indicating perhaps a high deployment of the reserve. The cutaway release was found near the hand of the deceased. He had made 55 jumps in the last month, most camera jumps, and was quite current 14. 3/31/2001 Lodi, CA MAL 49 3000 Y/N Description: After videoing a two-way, this jumper experienced a main malfunction (a spinning something-or-other). When she cutaway, her reserve bridle caught on her front-mounted still camera. She had pulled all the handles, and had managed to reserve the helmet before impact. The ring sight tangled with some of the lines, and the locking stows of the freebag did not release. 15. 7/26/2001 Emerald Coast, AL MAL 37 2600 ?/N? Description: This jumper rolled onto his back to catch the opening of the tandem pair he was filming. The tandem master observed him deploy perhaps a thousand feet below them, go into a quick spinning malfunction, and then cutaway. It would appear that a line from the jumper's canopy caught on his helmet, and when he deployed the reserve, it entangled with the main. While he was concious after the impact under two entangled canopies, he passed away later that evening at a nearby hospital. The main was a Jedei 120. 16. /1/2005 Skydive Dallas, TX DMAL 55 5000 ?/? Description: The jumper had taken part in an uneventful 10-way RW jump and suffered a malfunction. He cutaway, but lines caught on the main pack tray flaps. Reserve was fired, but they entangled."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #10 March 23, 2006 QuoteJames Martin, January 2000 Details?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #11 March 23, 2006 >Details? Refer to your post - 1/8/2000 Perris, CA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #12 March 23, 2006 Sean Crossman 7-2-05 hit by camera man on deployment. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
namgrunt 0 #13 March 23, 2006 BAD things can and do happen to GOOD people lets all slow down and be safe..please MUCH better to be safe and lucky and live to jump another day than COOL and UNLUCKY and end it there early ..59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI) www.dzmemories.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #14 March 23, 2006 You got that right brother. To many people push it to fast in the name of cool. In this case NEVER get above or below a tandem ever! ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 March 23, 2006 QuoteJames Martin, January 2000 I believe he had a packing method contrary to the container manufacturer's instructions. QuoteJohn Appleton May never know for sure...but quite possiblt the amount of line left unstowed may have had something to do with the malfunction. QuoteLisa Gallager - 8/26/2001 could probally qualify also. Hook turning in turbulent conditions on ANY canopy is dangerous. I could go through Ron's list but the point is small things way before the skydive can have a negative effect......there are very few out there as you've stated that are just "shit happens" situations. The hard part is seeing the chain of events before you get started......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #16 March 23, 2006 There are also a few incidents here which may not have been the skydiver's fault, but were human error on someone else's part (rigger, other skydiver etc). As an aside this thread has also made me seriously wonder if I ever want a camera on my helmet Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #17 March 23, 2006 QuoteAs an aside this thread has also made me seriously wonder if I ever want a camera on my helmet I'm glad it's made you think that. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't, just that you're thinking. That in it's self makes you light years ahead in thinking in a safe manner compared to many that are in a rush. Kuddos to you.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #18 March 23, 2006 QuoteAs an aside this thread has also made me seriously wonder if I ever want a camera on my helmet Every time you add a layer of complexity to your equipment or the dive you increase the chances of something going wrong. “Murphy” lives for those among us that relax or get complacent. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #19 March 23, 2006 Quote Every time you add a layer of complexity to your equipment or the dive you increase the chances of something going wrong. “Murphy” lives for those among us that relax or get complacent. Sparky yeah... i'd already read the guidelines for camera flyers a while ago so was "aware" of the added risks but it's somehow different seeing a list of fatalities with that as a factor...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #20 March 23, 2006 >As an aside this thread has also made me seriously wonder if >I ever want a camera on my helmet . . . Yep, it is indeed a significant risk. I can't count how many newbies I've had tell me "I'm just going to jump with this camera. It's not like I'm doing some 4-way video, I'm just filming my pal. What can go wrong? Nothing's going to be any different." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #21 March 23, 2006 Quotethe point is small things way before the skydive can have a negative effect......there are very few out there as you've stated that are just "shit happens" situations. The hard part is seeing the chain of events before you get started...... DP, good point. You're correct, seeing the potential chain ahead of time and either doing overt things to break the chain... like maybe I ought to fix this what-not before I jump my right again... or establishing good habbits... like practice your emergency procedures or maybe we should break off at 4.5 instead of 3 are things that are lost on some... AND... what really gets me tweaked are folks that even in retrospect refuse to see the chain and would rather point fingers and lay blame elsewhere... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #22 March 23, 2006 QuoteI believe he had a packing method contrary to the container manufacturer's instructions. Explain? I never heard that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hottamaly 1 #23 March 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteI believe he had a packing method contrary to the container manufacturer's instructions. Explain? I never heard that. I'd like to hear it too. I was told (#11) on the post above (ron's list) that it was a line caught in the grommet. I was there and heard it from his team mates. Skydiving gave me a reason to live I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #24 March 23, 2006 I was mostly trying to make a point. I understand Mr. Martin was a racer jumper prior to his Reflex. I also understand that there was a trend with some racer jumpers in the area, including him, to place the main d-bag in the container "lines to the top". This, the micro line on the canopy he was jumping, the location of the closing loop on the reflex, and an underset stainless steel gommet (as was common in the industry at that time are all links in the chain that lead to that fatality. Regretable, and changing or removing only one link in that chain may have prevented the incident.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grasshopper 0 #25 March 23, 2006 Quote. I also understand that there was a trend with some racer jumpers in the area, including him, to place the main d-bag in the container "lines to the top". . Interesting theory. Where did you hear that? People who were there had never heard that. Also, as someone who was jumping racers in the area at the time, and packing them, I'd never seen that. Not that there were many racers in the area anyway. BTW, the only time I have heard of anyone packing lines up was on a Voodoo when they first came out. I was told the manual said it was acceptable, but the current manual doesn't say anything about it. If you do this, it is not IAW the manufactors instructions.________________________________________________________ Abbie drove me to Idaho and all I got was this lousy sigline Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
