Drop Zone Ethics - 101 (In Kansas City)

[jumper410 0]

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I told him he was doing good up to the last sentence and he should fuck off.

wow, that really brings out your insecurity and maturity level. i didn't know i resorted to PM because mods were watching. is that what you think? and the question posed in the PM, still stands.

[gthomas101 0]

"Clearly they played a bit with reality in describing themselves as a long standing place that was 'closed for winter' until April 1 rather than a new one. But that's marketing again."


My ex wife did this and it cost me a hell of a lot, and as old boy told me once "the truth is the truth and when you just told me a half truth you just lied" but what the hell did he know he was my grandad and he had just caught me burning up the south forty.

I agree I think this has gotten a little over the top but hey you guys are keeping me amused, but here is what I dont understand, the web site says hot showers, which by the way I dont give a shit about just ask the staff at MRVS on sunday, they also advertise alot and have none of it, somebody in another thread let use know that his money is going to the best possible place to jump, If I read the web sight threw my gear in the car headed out to find a shed in a feild, I might wonder a little about the rest of the operation, now if they had on there web sight a photo of a shed and didnt say they had these things I wouldnt give a shit, I would climb my fat ass up into the plane enjoy. my point being be truthful up front about the operation, let the people in the city know whats up, dont come in throught the back door. skydivers dont really give a shit about this stuff as long as they have 60 secs to flail around int he sky but the locals do becasue they are not going to get a pay off as we are.


you can believe all of this because my exwife tells me im a smart ass all the time.

gthomasphoto.com

[bch7773 0]

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Besides K-State is a club, if everyone left the remainder of you would still jump, the bills are paid by the school! Oh -I forgot! you pay $25.00 a month.
Get over it!

A. K-State pays nothing towards DZ operations or money. They only give us a "travel to competition budget" that CAN'T be spent on anything except airline tickets or rental cars.

B. $20 a semister actually to stay in the club, or $40 a year

C. We aren't scared of the new DZ because we know we will get plenty of students due to our low training costs (the cheapest in the midwest). Also, many of our experienced jumpers will stay because we have a good vibe at our DZ.

We have nothing to fear from this new DZ... many of our jumpers have already gone to try them out, and we didn't "make them grovel back"

If you think this new DZ is crap, let people go and find out for themselves, and if they prefer your DZs over it, they will stick with you won't they?

But you are afraid that your DZs are lacking... and so you lash out.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[billo 0]

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Hell i guess I don't exist.I have boogies and don't even own a DZ

spence, i completely understand your argument. i'm not even sure why this thread isn't locked yet as the posts are getting incredibly childish, personal, and straying off topic. alas...

during my short season (due to school) in 2005 (and i know this since i recently did my taxes) i drove 8464 miles, averaging 455 miles per weekend of drive time to go to fun dropzones and fun boogies in NE and IA. i did this because i could not find a closer dropzone in KS or MO that had the airplanes, facilities, videographer rate (selfish reason), VIBE, fun jumper rate, or nearby location (# of miles) that made them worth my money...let alone a dropzone that allowed me to jump with a 265 exit weight when my reserve is TSO'd to 254 (and please, nobody hijack this thread due to the TSO comment...stick to the illusive subject matter at hand). i won't bother to suggest the number of miles driven in 2001 thru 2004 in pursuit of a location that i was welcomed to jump at.

DZ's in KC have zero reason to fear each other unless they feel they are playing catch up. at the new DZ, KCSC, i have been told, "it doesn't matter if you go jump somewhere else, as long as you had a fun time while you were here". i wish that remark was echoed at all locations throughout the sport and country. but mentioning "dropzone ethics" in the same sentence as "kansas city", holy crap, i don't think that has happened in quite awhile. "that's all i've got to say about the war in vietnam..." for now...

peace,
billo

PS - thanks to all the posters in this thread who made me laugh today, i laughed so hard my face hurt and that is better than most days as the office

PPS - spence, do you remember me complaining about KC through all those beers at dublin? now you see my pain...

[jumper410 0]

Hmmm, I guess I should not be too surprised at what became of this thread judging from the others regarding the new DZ. So far, the only response that has carried any merit is that from “stratostar " everything else has just been the very mud-slinging I was complaining about when I started the thread to expose some facts. The only thing I can find I shouldn’t have done was to outright tell people not to go there instead of just letting people decide. That’s it, everything else is just, well, true.

Going quickly down the list here, I have been accused of not having the facts but with nothing else to back that up, been told “it’s just advertising,” as a viable explanation for their practices, been accused of sabotaging the new DZ, been accused of publicly and childishly bashing and even threatening (huh) the new DZ by the Vice-Prez of K-state, been told I should fear what this thread is doing to my “reputation,” (reputation for what I don’t know?), been told to fuck off (hmmm who’s childish?) and everything I said is all a lie because the “virtual DZ” had a boogie.

First off I don’t have anything to fear here. I am not a DZO. I had nothing to do with inventing “phantom angry citizens” or whatever it was called. I only have a concern that based on what has presented itself so far of this new DZ, this situation as it is now isn’t good for skydiving in KC in the longer run.

It is not as if the Eriksmones came in here with a plan for success. They didn’t. That should be clear by now. It would be totally different if they came in, fought the battles over location before opening up, bought property, built facilities, and considered more carefully how to go about opening a DZ and getting the experience to run one first. This little skydiving industry is very fragile, it’s not like opening up another gas station on a corner somewhere. Don’t you people realize the kinds of things that are at stake here for the sport everywhere? The sport cannot afford bad judgment anymore, anywhere by any DZ or entity. Go ask your DZO, where ever you are, about just how much costs have skyrocketed for everything to keep a DZ running, then ask them why. Ask how much insurance on those Otters has gone up in the last couple of years and why there is no longer jump aircraft insurance available for a Porter. It is because there have been so many accidents in the past couple of years and mistakes made in judgment. Don’t you think that before giving all this credit to the new DZ that they should have built something that exists first and have a little bit of road behind them? Knowing how a lot of skydivers are, there is a tendency to make conflict regardless, even if some of you agree with these points, it’s too hard to resist having to find something bad to say about it. I think some of these post’rs would swear on their lives the sky is green just to make a point.

In all the other threads, I heard all this rhetoric about people posting anonymously. Afraid to express their thoughts and views, well I am not afraid to call it like it is and these are my views on the matter. If you don’t like it, do something constructive other than complain about it and issue personal attacks.

[Amazon 7]

Can I ask a very simple question?


What DZ do you work at currently??

[darnknit 0]

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Knowing how a lot of skydivers are, there is a tendency to make conflict regardless, even if some of you agree with these points, it’s too hard to resist having to find something bad to say about it. I think some of these post’rs would swear on their lives the sky is green just to make a point.

dripping with irony.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I'm sorry you lost me at the "am I so dumb" part.

As for the rest of it,about the only thing I will give you is the website issues.I have not even looked at it but if what I have read is true I would have gone about the web site a different way.It sounds like they had someone build the site and that person used words they saw on other sites.I would have said things like KCs newest DZ,The Dz with the brightest future...you get the point,or maybe you don't since my reasoning skills are so fucked up because of how dumb I am.

As for the build it and then you have a right to be here,not everyone has the kind of money it takes to build a business like that.We live in an extraordinary world because of people like the new DZOs that will step out on faith to build something from the ground up.And it is even that much more amazing when you realize that they do it while people like you are working to dismantle what they have done.

Now,I don't believe you give a shit about most of the things on your list.I think you are worried about number one and how this is going to affect you.

Do me a favor,no more PMs.I save my PM space for friends and try not to waste it with mindless bickering with people I don't know.If you have something to say you can say it on the forums.


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[rehmwa 2]

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Our buddy jumper 410 has decided to resort to PMs since the mods are watching.Here is what he sent me.

Bad form - PM's are private, no matter what you think of the content.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[airtwardo 6]

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If you don’t like it, do something constructive other than complain about it and issue personal attacks.

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Good point.

And Amazon has a valid question about which dropzone you are associated with, I wish you would make that clear so people reading this could have a better idea of where you're 'coming' from and why.

I don't mean that in a negative manner at all...you point a finger at 'out of townee's' yet you have Texas listed as home...Do you work at a Kansas DZ?


It's a free market society...why not let a 'new' dropzone either fail or flourish on it's own merits without trying to under mine it? I'm not intimately familiar with ANY of the dropzones you speak of, and have no real opinion other than from what I've read on this thread and the others.

Like you said, MOST of us don't know ALL the facts, yourself included. Perhaps that website was designed prior to the blocking of any rental space on the airport? Maybe it's a 'vision statement' of sorts designed to project what they're shooting for...
Either way... it says they have a dropzone and it appears as though they do...

Not many of us could stand up to a line by line investigation over every word we say about ourselves.

I understand that you are not a DZO and that the things you write here are your 'opinion'. But you also state that you work in the industry...with your comment about others needing to 'Grovel' their way back into the good graces after going somewhere else...says 'something' about you, hopefully NOT your employer. That's just not good business practice...or attitude.

Again I don't know how things work there now, but I was a S/L instructor in Baldwin back in the early 80's.
I took it on myself to go to the schools in Baldwin & Lawrence every week and 'sell' a couple dozen students on the sport...brought a lotta business in and instead of 'groveling' for a jump at another KS. dz, I was asked how to do similar presentations by 'their' instructors...I really hope that type of attitude hasn't gone away.

Currently I 'work' in another arena of the skydiving business, doing Professional Demonstrations...

I get asked often for pointers, recommendations, advise, from both competitors and people looking to break into the industry. I always go out of my way to assist, because (1) competition make ME better, and (2) we're ALL jumpers and we have to stick together, help each other out!

The bottom line is, if this new dropzone doesn't offer a product / service in line with what the others do it will fail. It they are as good or better, they won't. Either way as skydivers, we should at least let them do so without trying to 'sabotage' the end result.

We are ALL in this together after all!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Our buddy jumper 410 has decided to resort to PMs since the mods are watching.Here is what he sent me.

Bad form - PM's are private, no matter what you think of the content.

He could have said what he had to say here on the forum.There are others here that a famous for taking arguements to PMs and I don't play that game.There was nothing personel or private in that PM.


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[Thanatos340 1]

I am not even sure if you realize how much your posts are hurting the reputations of the DZ`s you are trying to support...

I know I would never jump at a place that had the attitude of "Jump over there and you will have to grovel if you ever want to jump this dz again".

It seems that you guys are kinda forgetting who the customer is. and when anyone shows up at your dz, They should be welcomed no matter where they are from or where they have been jumping. Maybe this has alot to do with why these DZ`s could not support a Turbine before...

DZ attitude has everything to do with how often Jumpers will show up and whether or not they stay and/or if they come back.

I know that after all this mud-slinging and Pissing and moaning about a new DZ, I would NEVER consider jumping at any other DZ around KC other than the new one. The attitude that has been portrayed on this site by supporters of the old DZ`s is definitely not one I would choose to be around.

All your arguments about how this can never work and how this dz can never be successful are just wishful thinking.
I will give you a great example.. Look at Skydive The Farm..
The Owner is not even a Jumper. Never made a Skydive. When they opened in an already saturated Market (4 Other DZ`s in the area already.. 3 of them Turbine DZ`s, One of which has the biggest marketing machine this industry has ever seen and happens to be across the street) all they had was a hangar, A Good Plane and a Field to land in. The first year all we had were Porta Potties and a Hangar to pack in. Two years later, we have the nicest restrooms/showers of any DZ anywhere, Bunk house, RV hookups, Full service Rigging loft, On-site food service and a great place to jump. Every single weekend people drive from 5 hours or longer away and pass many other very nice DZ`s on the way just to come to the Farm.

It can and has been done. I hope the new DZO`s are just as successful. Create a Good environment with a great attitude, provide a good plane and jumpers will come.

[fireballgrl 0]

This is all I am going to post...and it is the opinion of those who must rely on the dz for their income.

We have, and always will cater to our students first. The numbers are steadily declining...just ask USPA. Some skydivers do not appreciate having to wait in line in order for a first timer to experience the sport we all love. It is hard enough to make it through student progression with weather and obligations. You were given this courtesy when you were a student.

These are also the same jumpers who don't want to be staff or help the dz and only want to hand us their $20 dollar bill and be put on a plane. We try to accomodate everyone but showing up on a saturday in June at 3:00 will probably make you wait for a while. Yes, you are a customer. We also may have 30 other customers for the day. Customers that our expensive phone book add and our website brought us. Customers who will spend $160-$300 with us each. We do not turn away students, come one come all, because we know there are certain months that no money will come in and we will still need to pay the bills.

If skydiving was just my weekend hobby and I worked full time/wife/kids, etc obligations I would probably want to make my 3-4 skydives and get out of there. Who wouldnt want to jump a turbine for $20 with no wait? Harrisonville says they are the most fun jumper friendly drop zone. Go there and enjoy it. Vote with your wallets... Most of the people on all these posts do not jump at our dz's anyway.

We have not told anyone they are not welcome back if they jump there...or grovel for that matter.
That being said, I appreciate each and everyone of our staff, they have a spirit that enjoys working with and seeing themselves through their students. These are the people who give back to the sport and know what being a mentor truely is.
The politics in this area are largely due to the skydivers themselves. The rumors abound and no one wants to ask the dzo's themselves. Has anyone tried that?

~just an opinion of a manifestor that knows the business

Please show your maturity when addressing me...I do not give out attacks and expect the same.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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This is all I am going to post...and it is the opinion of those who must rely on the dz for their income

While I disagree with this,(Iknow alot of people that make a living in the sport who think nothing like this)your statement says alot.


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[Thanatos340 1]

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Some skydivers do not appreciate having to wait in line in order for a first timer to experience the sport we all love. It is hard enough to make it through student progression with weather and obligations. You were given this courtesy when you were a student.

Nope.. When I was a Student.. It was show up at the DZ, Hang around all day sometimes Both day on the weekend and Hopefully get in One Jump. Usually it was weather, Winds, or something else keeping me on the ground.. All the while up jumpers were flying load after load. I think most people will tell you that this was thier experience.

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These are also the same jumpers who don't want to be staff or help the dz and only want to hand us their $20 dollar bill and be put on a plane.

Whats wrong with that??
If you guys do not want this type of jumper at your DZ.. No problem.. I am sure the New DZ will welcome them and accommodate them. Gotta love Free market economy.

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Who wouldn’t want to jump a turbine for $20 with no wait?

Exactly!!

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We have not told anyone they are not welcome back if they jump there...or grovel for that matter

Jumper410 said exactly that in his initial post.

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When it finally goes bad there, I wouldn’t come crying back to MRVS and/or Skydive Kansas City and if you do be prepared to do some much deserved graveling!

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That being said, I appreciate each and everyone of our staff, they have a spirit that enjoys working with and seeing themselves through their students. These are the people who give back to the sport and know what being a mentor truely is.

Staff to me implies getting paid to do a Job. If you are getting paid.. You are not GIVING anything.
Around here Mentors are usually just the Upjumpers that you seem to feel are such a Burden that take the newer Jumpers under their Wing and teach them after they graduate AFF and Teach them for free. THAT is giving back to the Sport.


A place where weekend Jumper CAN just show up and get on a load and goto to 14K for $20. Do two or three jumps and go home. Nothing at all wrong with that. Sounds like you would rather not have their business anyway.

The New DZ sounds like exactly what the area needs if all the DZ`s around feel this way about casual Fun Jumpers.

The industry is changing. Like it or not.. This is reality. Cessna DZ`s are dying out and being replaced by Turbine DZ`s. Static Line Progression is going away replaced by AFF. Up jumpers are Voting with their wallets.. Or just staying home because they cant stand the poor attitudes at the DZ`s. A new place like this will hopefully bring them back into the sport.

Around here I almost wish I could find a Cessna to jump every once in a while. Most of the younger Jumpers around have never Crawled out on a strut.. and it would be a novelty to do it.

The world changes.. Businesses either Adapt or Die.

[jdthomas 0]

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"We have, and always will cater to our students first. The numbers are steadily declining...just ask USPA."

If this is the trend then you had better look at your business and start to cater to the needs of the upjumpers who will be the ones that carry the business.



"Who wouldnt want to jump a turbine for $20 with no wait? Harrisonville says they are the most fun jumper friendly drop zone. Go there and enjoy it. Vote with your wallets... Most of the people on all these posts do not jump at our dz's anyway."

And it is this statement that puzzels me more then ever.. Jen you seem so positive for the new dz and tell the experienced jumpers to go and enjoy the new dz.. This is a change from you "just the facts" days...
and you say that most of the jumpers that are posting here don't jump at "our dz's" anyway, are you now speaking for all of the dzo's that where speaking out aginst this new dz?

"We have not told anyone they are not welcome back if they jump there...or grovel for that matter.
The rumors abound and no one wants to ask the dzo's themselves. Has anyone tried that?"

Yes people have tried that and infact got no answers in return.


.

Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[stratostar 5]

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You were given this courtesy when you were a student.

No we were not, we had to wait like everyone else, and we didn't bump up jumpers off the plane in order to go first, like many dz's do today.
Then again we didn't have the tandem mills we do today.
If you bump them why would they want to stick around or come back.
You want to reap the one time tandem students money while dissing the people who will be there as a regular for a longer amount of time and more then likely went thru your student program,buy gear with you and spent way more then a tandem, that is fucked up!
Once in a while due to sunset or something is one thing and understandable, but to do it regularly is wrong.

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These are also the same jumpers who don't want to be staff or help the dz

Again why would they want to if your bumping them off loads, they want to jump, thats why they are there.

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We also may have 30 other customers for the day. Customers that our expensive phone book add and our website brought us

You got that many student and can't afford to operate a bigger aircraft. or at least bring in one for busy weekends, you know ahead of time there coming. There is no good reason to bump your regulars to cater to tandems other then being greedy or broke or both. JMO

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[jumper410 0]

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I'm sorry you lost me at the "am I so dumb" part.

you get the point,or maybe you don't since my reasoning skills are so fucked up because of how dumb I am.


Now,I don't believe you give a shit about most of the things on your list.I think you are worried about number one and how this is going to affect you.

Do me a favor,no more PMs.I save my PM space for friends and try not to waste it with mindless bickering with people I don't know.If you have something to say you can say it on the forums.


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uh, ok. the only PM you ever got from me was the one you copy and pasted here to the forum. i have no idea why you are just now telling me not to PM you anymore because I haven't. do you think you can use the F word a little more too? for someone that doesn't waste their time with mindless bickering, why are you always doing it then? how about that F word some more?

[Amazon 7]

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You got that many student and can't afford to operate a bigger aircraft. or at least bring in one for busy weekends, you know ahead of time there coming. There is no good reason to bump your regulars to cater to tandems other then being greedy or broke or both. JMO

DITTO

Thanks for saying that Strato. I have seen a situation like that or two....


I remember being a student all too well and it was one hell of a long time ago.. and then I went thru it all over again just 3 years ago. My how times had changed...

When I was a student BACK IN THE DAY.. they could not wait for me to finish my static line progression at my DZ so they could do 4 way with me before I had 20 jumps.

The new place I trained at 3 years was a tandem mill, and that was what was all important.. the DZO's bottom line. ONce he was not making $100 a jump off you .. he basically did not give a rats ass about you unless you were making money for him( told me that to my face). He did not have the lift capacity to really support anything more than his tandem factory... or at least that was the way he ran it.
As long as you did not mind doing solo's with a tandem and TI and Videographer.... you could manage to squeeze on a load here or there.

A two tandem and TI's load would fill the plane go up and drop.. and them come back down and sit on the ground for 30 minutes until the next set of tandems were ready to go( god forbid a tandem would have to wait ). Experienced jumpers COULD HAVE gotten another load in between but manifest just was not geared toward that....if the plane was doing tandems.. that was all it was doing.

In summer when he would lease a Caravan.... it would sit on the ground so that he could maximize profit out of his own C-182's.. the Caravan would not fly until the Tandems were being inconvienienced and had 3 or 4 of them ready to go and even then it would take 12 or more on the plane for it to roll.


Personally I dont want to see anyone having to wait... I have been to a LOT of well run DZ over my jumping career and luckily most of them are run by DZO's who are jumpers and are not totally eaten up by greed and can manage their DZ to make it fun for EVERYONE.. students.. tandems... and upjumpers.. and they STILL manage to amke a profit.

Part of making everyone happy at the DZ is putting SOME of that profit BACK into the business and providing the aircraft that todays jumpers want.

The other DZ in this area.. KNOWs how to do this.. with their Otter.. and the Cessna... I dont mind jumping from the cessna when there are not enough people to roll the super otter wiht -34 turbines..... I do not mind the hop and pops that our NW weather foists on us with low cloud decks all too frequently...I dont mind this DZO hustling people to get ready for loads... its well run.. and more of us get to jump... BUT they have invested the money in their family businsess to keep everyone happy.
To me.. that is good customer service.. and I do not mind that 2 hour drive to spend my money there.


Rather than fighing the inevitability of someone who is out competing the OLD DZ.. perhaps a change in ways of the OLD DZ's is in order so they can compete. Some of the threads concerning the DZ's there have been a study in nastiness..... its not doing ANYONE anygood because frankly....the fighting does more to make skydiving look bad.... than does a business trying to get started and doing more with less facilities to get off the ground and provide better service than what HAS been the norm there in the area.

[jumper410 0]

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We have not told anyone they are not welcome back if they jump there...or grovel for that matter

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Jumper410 said exactly that in his initial post.

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When it finally goes bad there, I wouldn’t come crying back to MRVS and/or Skydive Kansas City and if you do be prepared to do some much deserved graveling!

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Just a clarification, I said that, no one else, not MRVS, not Skydive KC. I said that because it is what happened after the Independence debacle. There were a lot of real troublemaker jumpers that were sent away from MRVS and ended up down there. When it went belly-up, they tried to come back to MRVS and cause more trouble again. That is why I said that about “groveling” and that is what happened. These people were also warned about the dangers they faced going to Independence and the threat is posed to skydiving as well. These are facts. Just ask some of the people from around here.

And another question that I have been asked, who do I work for? Put quickly and simply, I am not officially “on staff” anywhere right now but I do work at MRVS and in East Texas off and on. I travel back and forth between Dallas and KC a lot right now and have two places of residence. I last worked on staff at Skydive Texas a little over two years ago up until they closed down after their Porter crash.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I did not mean to imply that you had PMed me again.Everyone,I have only recieved one rude PM from Jumper410.I would not classify him as a stalker yet.


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[Taylor610 0]

I did not mean to imply that you had PMed me again.Everyone,I have only recieved one rude PM from Jumper410.I would not classify him as a stalker yet.
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That does it!!!! Now I am mad

You just made me spit my drink all over my monitor!!!

Chris, where would my day be without your post!!!!

[darnknit 0]

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I am not officially “on staff” anywhere right now but I do work at MRVS and in East Texas off and on.

i'm not sure how any given person can be working for a business and not be staff. i know at my dz we have part-time staff, but they are still staff.

in any case, i will take your word for it, you are not staff at any dz, and do not live in KC full time.

some people might start to wonder why you are taking the position you currently have.

i am not one of those people, i know that you are only speaking out because you love skydiving and genuinely wish to promote skydiving. in celebration of your love for the sport, and your unswerving dedication to safety, i am sending a case of beck's beer to KCSC.

they will be toasting the honor, joy, love, and comradery that you have brought to skydiving.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[jumper410 0]

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I am not officially “on staff” anywhere right now but I do work at MRVS and in East Texas off and on.

i'm not sure how any given person can be working for a business and not be staff. i know at my dz we have part-time staff, but they are still staff.

in any case, i will take your word for it, you are not staff at any dz, and do not live in KC full time.

some people might start to wonder why you are taking the position you currently have.

i am not one of those people, i know that you are only speaking out because you love skydiving and genuinely wish to promote skydiving. in celebration of your love for the sport, and your unswerving dedication to safety, i am sending a case of beck's beer to KCSC.

they will be toasting the honor, joy, love, and comradery that you have brought to skydiving.

ok. quickly, on-staff means you are on the regular schedule either full or part-time basis. many instructors do jumps at dz's that don't fit this description. i am not in a position to be able to schedule myself regularly anywhere at this time. does that clarify this now?

i stated my reasons for my postion earlier. re-read it i guess. it's about qualified, experienced people operating large aircraft and running DZ's. this is not a good OJT business. stakes are high for skydiving and the sport/aviation as a whole for screw-ups due to in-experience, incompetence. see outrageous operating expense that were nowhere near the levels they are at now. due to huge increases in insurance, etc. due to all the jump plane crashes there have been the last three years and other accidents. it's really simple. we been down this road here already in kc. it cost aviation 27 million dollars in successful lawsuits and 6 deaths, this is fact. due to what i stated above. later.

[MarkM 0]

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We have, and always will cater to our students first. The numbers are steadily declining...just ask USPA. Some skydivers do not appreciate having to wait in line in order for a first timer to experience the sport we all love. It is hard enough to make it through student progression with weather and obligations. You were given this courtesy when you were a student.

No, when I was a student I waited in line like everyone else. And the reason I went through being a student is because I was surrounded by a lot of happy fun jumpers doing crazy shit I wanted to be a part of.