matt_f_001 0 #1 August 21, 2006 I have a question for you guys... I'm a new jumper (just did my 28th jump today) and I've just recently started packing my own gear. However, I still need advice here and there on how to pack. I was at a dropzone yesterday and a sales rep from a competing canopy manufacturer was giving me some pointers. One piece of advice in particular, which is the main purpose of this post: he told me to roll the entire nose to make it easier to pack in but I believe this led to a crazy opening (I had been told previously to leave the center cell open and fold the outer 4 separately or to simply tuck it all inside without folding) So I get the thing all packed up and jump the next day and I have the worst opening I've ever had with the canopy spinning hard to the left. I managed to prevent line twists by grabbing the risers and pulling them apart with as much force as possible. The nose had been tightly folded from the left to the right which seems like it might have caused the outer right cells to inflate first and induce a spin. I don't want to say who or where this was because I'm not trying to start anything but I am curious to see what others think about this. I have a few of my own thoughts about it but I just want to know what others think. Thanks, MattQuote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #2 August 21, 2006 What canopy are you jumping? The handfull of canopies that I've jumped that required rolling the nose I did the 4/4 split (9-cell canopy) rolling to the inside next to the center cell. However, quite a few of the canopies that people have told me HAD to be rolled to get a good opening really actually needed work done to the canopy. Typically a new lineset and sometimes a different slider. Talk to your rigger about the issues your having, especially if its rental gear/student gear that you're jumping.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #3 August 21, 2006 Disclaimer: I hate packing and suck at it. Rolling the nose is generally considered a no-no anymore. I'm surprised a canopy rep suggested you do it."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #4 August 21, 2006 Rule #1 : Ask your instructor(s) but my £0.02: I jump a Sabre 1 (know to spank people sometimes) and I never roll the nose. My Rigger, says that the main component on this canopy, that control opening is the Slider.. Which I ensure is 1/4'd properly and the front pulled out good and proper.... But - that's my canopy, others are different. . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites monkycndo 0 #5 August 21, 2006 I used to 4/4 roll the nose on my Sabre. Now I just tuck it in and get better openings. YMMV.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matt_f_001 0 #6 August 21, 2006 I'm jumping a Fusion 190... it was actually my second jump on the gear and rig. The first jump went off without a hitch. And I was definitely thinking about the Rule #1 after I landed! I agree, it seemed to me that as he was a canopy rep, he would/should have known that it was going to happen. I didn't want to sound paranoid, but I seemed he may have told me that just to make it open poorly, especially since just before that he hadn't been speaking very highly of the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,123 #7 August 21, 2006 I'd stick with learning and really understanding one good packing technique to begin with, and not trying new stuff until you understand the old stuff. A good experienced packer who works with students, or an instructor who packs for themselves would be a good place to start, but it sounds like you have had lessons. Master what you know before you begin to play with it. There are a lot of ways to pack that can work, but you really ought to know why. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #8 August 21, 2006 QuoteRolling the nose is generally considered a no-no anymore. Can anyone elaborate on why this would be a bad technique? I have rolled my nose in a 3/3 split (on 7 cell canopies) for something like my last 900 BASE jumps, with good results. This is also the technique I teach in First Jump Courses. I've also got a couple of jumps with the nose shotgunned, spread, folded, and placed in various other configurations. In all honesty, I can't tell a difference in the opening altitude on the various techniques unless I'm under 200' at exit, although I do think that the 3/3 split and roll gives me noticeably better heading performance. I do realize that nose treatments won't translate all that well to-from skydiving, but I'm interested in learning why skydivers think this technique would be a bad one, so that I can add that into my thinking on how I treat the nose.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tink1717 2 #9 August 21, 2006 Your canopy is probably out of trim. Have it checked for trim and go from there.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites krkeenan 0 #10 August 21, 2006 QuoteRolling the nose is generally considered a no-no anymore. Considered by who ??? That's a pretty broad statement. Can you cite the source of this "well-known" fact ? Kevin====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites divegoddess 0 #11 August 21, 2006 ditto I just tuck mine in and my openings have been nice. The one time I rolled the nose per a rigger at my dz my opening was much more "brisk" than usual.... not a slammer though by any means. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matt_f_001 0 #12 August 21, 2006 The first jump I had on the parachute was great so I don't think it's out of trim. If I do roll it anymore, I will definitely go with the 4/4 split, but for now, I just plan on tucking it in. The 4/4 makes way more sense than taking all 9 cells and rolling them into one big twist. Rolling it all up in one didn't seem like a best way when he was showing me but now I know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #13 August 21, 2006 Pack it the way the owners manual that came with it says and you sould be back at the good opennings you had the first time. I roll the nose on my old Sabre 1 135 but not on my Riot 107. The nose rolling trick won't work on all parachutes as they aren't all designed the same (yeah, I know you knew that, I was saying it out load for every one who didn't)An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #14 August 22, 2006 QuotePack it the way the owners manual that came with it says and you sould be back at the good opennings you had the first time. There is no owners manual for Precision mains, though apparently George Galloway is working on one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #15 August 22, 2006 Oh well, there is always the web page.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cloudi 0 #16 August 22, 2006 It is my understanding, of the canopies I'm familiar with, that rolling the nose will often cause more problems than it's intended to fix. A standard pro-pack (or whatever method the manufacturer recommends for its canopies) is the best place to start. Special packing "tricks" like rolling the nose, pushing the nose in, positioning the slider over the nose, etc. are to be done IF the canopy is not opening the way you want it to on the standard pack job and all other possible contributors have been ruled out (gear compatibility, line trim, correct sized slider, body position, freefall speed, etc.). If these have all been ruled out and the canopy is spanking me when I don't perform special packing tactics, I'm sending it to the manufacturer for inspection, but that's just me. Rolling the nose is supposed to slow down the opening, right? If you aren't experiencing too-fast/hard openings with the standard, suggested packing method, what's the point? Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #17 August 22, 2006 Quotethe main component on this canopy, that controls opening is the Slider. That is what I believe as well, and I throw in good body position at deployment time just for good measure. To the original poster, there has been some very good discourse on this subject in the past, do a search and you might find some interesting information. One thing is for certain, get a bunch of skydivers in a room to show you how to pack and you are likely to get a lot of varying techniques that have the desirable end result of an open parachute a large percentage of the time. All kinds of "mumbo jumbo" as bill V. once put it. Personally, I just got tired of wasting my time doing things that really were not necessary for the desired end result. I have serious back issues so I use the biggest slider PD was willing to make for my Stiletto - nice and quick packs, soft every time. It’s all about the amount of drag the slider presents. But then again, I could be wrong.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites openingshok 0 #18 August 23, 2006 Think about this....Back in the day (way before my time) everyone flat packed. That required rolling the nose one way or the other, not down the middle, if I recall from the vintage videos.......But I do believe the slider is what slows the opening, not the nose. I have a crossfire, and I just stuff the nose. I had a stiletto and I could have stapled the SOB shut and it would have still kicked my ass... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matt_f_001 0 #19 August 23, 2006 Thanks for all the input everyone! I jumped the canopy again today... I just neatly nestled the nose in and I had probably the smoothest opening I've ever had so it didn't have anything to do with the canopy, just the way it was packed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 93 #20 August 23, 2006 QuoteBack in the day (way before my time) everyone flat packed. That required rolling the nose one way or the other, not down the middle, I flat/stack pack, and roll the 4 outer cells in toward the middle on both sides. Nothing about packing a canopy on its side prevents that.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StreetScooby 5 #21 August 23, 2006 I jump a Sabre 150, and used to roll the nose. Never got an on heading opening. Now, I just push the nose into the tail before wrapping it. It opens fine, and on heading.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
AggieDave 6 #2 August 21, 2006 What canopy are you jumping? The handfull of canopies that I've jumped that required rolling the nose I did the 4/4 split (9-cell canopy) rolling to the inside next to the center cell. However, quite a few of the canopies that people have told me HAD to be rolled to get a good opening really actually needed work done to the canopy. Typically a new lineset and sometimes a different slider. Talk to your rigger about the issues your having, especially if its rental gear/student gear that you're jumping.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #3 August 21, 2006 Disclaimer: I hate packing and suck at it. Rolling the nose is generally considered a no-no anymore. I'm surprised a canopy rep suggested you do it."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #4 August 21, 2006 Rule #1 : Ask your instructor(s) but my £0.02: I jump a Sabre 1 (know to spank people sometimes) and I never roll the nose. My Rigger, says that the main component on this canopy, that control opening is the Slider.. Which I ensure is 1/4'd properly and the front pulled out good and proper.... But - that's my canopy, others are different. . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #5 August 21, 2006 I used to 4/4 roll the nose on my Sabre. Now I just tuck it in and get better openings. YMMV.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_f_001 0 #6 August 21, 2006 I'm jumping a Fusion 190... it was actually my second jump on the gear and rig. The first jump went off without a hitch. And I was definitely thinking about the Rule #1 after I landed! I agree, it seemed to me that as he was a canopy rep, he would/should have known that it was going to happen. I didn't want to sound paranoid, but I seemed he may have told me that just to make it open poorly, especially since just before that he hadn't been speaking very highly of the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #7 August 21, 2006 I'd stick with learning and really understanding one good packing technique to begin with, and not trying new stuff until you understand the old stuff. A good experienced packer who works with students, or an instructor who packs for themselves would be a good place to start, but it sounds like you have had lessons. Master what you know before you begin to play with it. There are a lot of ways to pack that can work, but you really ought to know why. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #8 August 21, 2006 QuoteRolling the nose is generally considered a no-no anymore. Can anyone elaborate on why this would be a bad technique? I have rolled my nose in a 3/3 split (on 7 cell canopies) for something like my last 900 BASE jumps, with good results. This is also the technique I teach in First Jump Courses. I've also got a couple of jumps with the nose shotgunned, spread, folded, and placed in various other configurations. In all honesty, I can't tell a difference in the opening altitude on the various techniques unless I'm under 200' at exit, although I do think that the 3/3 split and roll gives me noticeably better heading performance. I do realize that nose treatments won't translate all that well to-from skydiving, but I'm interested in learning why skydivers think this technique would be a bad one, so that I can add that into my thinking on how I treat the nose.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tink1717 2 #9 August 21, 2006 Your canopy is probably out of trim. Have it checked for trim and go from there.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krkeenan 0 #10 August 21, 2006 QuoteRolling the nose is generally considered a no-no anymore. Considered by who ??? That's a pretty broad statement. Can you cite the source of this "well-known" fact ? Kevin====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divegoddess 0 #11 August 21, 2006 ditto I just tuck mine in and my openings have been nice. The one time I rolled the nose per a rigger at my dz my opening was much more "brisk" than usual.... not a slammer though by any means. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_f_001 0 #12 August 21, 2006 The first jump I had on the parachute was great so I don't think it's out of trim. If I do roll it anymore, I will definitely go with the 4/4 split, but for now, I just plan on tucking it in. The 4/4 makes way more sense than taking all 9 cells and rolling them into one big twist. Rolling it all up in one didn't seem like a best way when he was showing me but now I know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #13 August 21, 2006 Pack it the way the owners manual that came with it says and you sould be back at the good opennings you had the first time. I roll the nose on my old Sabre 1 135 but not on my Riot 107. The nose rolling trick won't work on all parachutes as they aren't all designed the same (yeah, I know you knew that, I was saying it out load for every one who didn't)An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #14 August 22, 2006 QuotePack it the way the owners manual that came with it says and you sould be back at the good opennings you had the first time. There is no owners manual for Precision mains, though apparently George Galloway is working on one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #15 August 22, 2006 Oh well, there is always the web page.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #16 August 22, 2006 It is my understanding, of the canopies I'm familiar with, that rolling the nose will often cause more problems than it's intended to fix. A standard pro-pack (or whatever method the manufacturer recommends for its canopies) is the best place to start. Special packing "tricks" like rolling the nose, pushing the nose in, positioning the slider over the nose, etc. are to be done IF the canopy is not opening the way you want it to on the standard pack job and all other possible contributors have been ruled out (gear compatibility, line trim, correct sized slider, body position, freefall speed, etc.). If these have all been ruled out and the canopy is spanking me when I don't perform special packing tactics, I'm sending it to the manufacturer for inspection, but that's just me. Rolling the nose is supposed to slow down the opening, right? If you aren't experiencing too-fast/hard openings with the standard, suggested packing method, what's the point? Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #17 August 22, 2006 Quotethe main component on this canopy, that controls opening is the Slider. That is what I believe as well, and I throw in good body position at deployment time just for good measure. To the original poster, there has been some very good discourse on this subject in the past, do a search and you might find some interesting information. One thing is for certain, get a bunch of skydivers in a room to show you how to pack and you are likely to get a lot of varying techniques that have the desirable end result of an open parachute a large percentage of the time. All kinds of "mumbo jumbo" as bill V. once put it. Personally, I just got tired of wasting my time doing things that really were not necessary for the desired end result. I have serious back issues so I use the biggest slider PD was willing to make for my Stiletto - nice and quick packs, soft every time. It’s all about the amount of drag the slider presents. But then again, I could be wrong.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
openingshok 0 #18 August 23, 2006 Think about this....Back in the day (way before my time) everyone flat packed. That required rolling the nose one way or the other, not down the middle, if I recall from the vintage videos.......But I do believe the slider is what slows the opening, not the nose. I have a crossfire, and I just stuff the nose. I had a stiletto and I could have stapled the SOB shut and it would have still kicked my ass... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_f_001 0 #19 August 23, 2006 Thanks for all the input everyone! I jumped the canopy again today... I just neatly nestled the nose in and I had probably the smoothest opening I've ever had so it didn't have anything to do with the canopy, just the way it was packed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 93 #20 August 23, 2006 QuoteBack in the day (way before my time) everyone flat packed. That required rolling the nose one way or the other, not down the middle, I flat/stack pack, and roll the 4 outer cells in toward the middle on both sides. Nothing about packing a canopy on its side prevents that.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StreetScooby 5 #21 August 23, 2006 I jump a Sabre 150, and used to roll the nose. Never got an on heading opening. Now, I just push the nose into the tail before wrapping it. It opens fine, and on heading.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
sundevil777 93 #20 August 23, 2006 QuoteBack in the day (way before my time) everyone flat packed. That required rolling the nose one way or the other, not down the middle, I flat/stack pack, and roll the 4 outer cells in toward the middle on both sides. Nothing about packing a canopy on its side prevents that.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #21 August 23, 2006 I jump a Sabre 150, and used to roll the nose. Never got an on heading opening. Now, I just push the nose into the tail before wrapping it. It opens fine, and on heading.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
