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Ron 7
QuoteHow is it handled? In AFF, there's the instructor landing ahead of you every time. For SL, someone has to be waiting - does he still come out after the student has been cleared off radio?
For groups of students there is a guy on the ground. For the longer delays I am in freefall with the student and land first....Just like I do with AFF jumps.
The way I see SL students get a deal with me, they get an AFF I for the cost of a SL jump.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
AFFI 0
QuoteIf you need to pay someone to teach you to pack, you are at the wrong dropzone.
Bullshit...
rehmwa 2
QuoteIf you need to pay someone to teach you to pack, you are at the wrong dropzone.
agreed
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
billvon 2,400
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>If you need to pay someone to teach you to pack, you are at the
>wrong dropzone.
I've found that if you want to be taught at 4:30pm on Saturday by a rigger, and that's the only time that will fit into your busy schedule - you may have to pay someone to accommodate you. And there are really people like this.
If you just want to learn from someone else when they have a minute, and are OK with it being interrupted by the usual goings-ons at DZ's, you generally don't have to pay anything. (As you said, if you have to pay someone to teach you even under those conditions, you might be at the wrong DZ.)
>wrong dropzone.
I've found that if you want to be taught at 4:30pm on Saturday by a rigger, and that's the only time that will fit into your busy schedule - you may have to pay someone to accommodate you. And there are really people like this.
If you just want to learn from someone else when they have a minute, and are OK with it being interrupted by the usual goings-ons at DZ's, you generally don't have to pay anything. (As you said, if you have to pay someone to teach you even under those conditions, you might be at the wrong DZ.)
uh oh . . . the heated debate on paid packing is slowly hijacking the forum . . . I'm gonna jump in again and vote for paid packing courses . . . but lets talk about it here : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?poll=1&poll_id=5559&forum_id=18&poll_type=0&post_id=2511125&poll_answer_id=26769&do%3Dpoll_vote%3Bredo%3Dpost_view_flat%3Bpost%3D2511125%3Broot_post%3D2511125%3Bpoll%3Dresults%3B=Vote
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.
rehmwa 2
Quoteuh oh . . . the heated debate on paid packing is slowly hijacking the forum . . . I'm gonna jump in again and vote for paid packing courses . . . but lets talk about it here :
BV's point is well made. Those that pay for it deserve to pay. But a good student with a good attitude will always get the extra attention from up-jumpers for free.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Stiffler 0
QuoteQuoteuh oh . . . the heated debate on paid packing is slowly hijacking the forum . . . I'm gonna jump in again and vote for paid packing courses . . . but lets talk about it here :
BV's point is well made. Those that pay for it deserve to pay. But a good student with a good attitude will always get the extra attention from up-jumpers for free.
and you know that for a fact at every DZ do you... you know that's how it is at every DZ in England do you?
all i see again in this topic, is yanks saying how it is in their dream world (in USA) and saying because they have a few thousand jumps, they know that's how it is everywhere... and don't dare to say they are wrong because they have 2300 jumps
makes me want to piss myself laughing
wmw999 2,122
Then rather than telling us what wankers we are, tell us how it works where you jump in England? And, well, maybe your individual experience doesn't match others who jump in England.
In the US, the cost of learning is often dependent on the flexibility of your schedule. Out on a windy day? You can learn plenty, because there are bored skydivers. Home doing something better, and want to learn when others are jumping? Good luck. They like jumping too.
Wendy W.
In the US, the cost of learning is often dependent on the flexibility of your schedule. Out on a windy day? You can learn plenty, because there are bored skydivers. Home doing something better, and want to learn when others are jumping? Good luck. They like jumping too.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Ron 7
Quoteand you know that for a fact at every DZ do you... you know that's how it is at every DZ in England do you?
No, but you seem to be the only one making blanket assumptions.
Quoteall i see again in this topic, is yanks saying how it is in their dream world
Our dream world exists.
It is like that in many places....Maybe you need to find better people to hang out with. Of course attitude from the student goes a long way. For example, I just had a student I did a few AFF levels with ask if I could look at a rig he wants to buy. I told him sure....Why? Well he is a nice guy and does not have an ego, so I am willing to do more for a guy that is not an ass.
Quotethey know that's how it is everywhere... and don't dare to say they are wrong because they have 2300 jumps
Maybe if you filled out a profile, or told us YOUR experience we could have a discussion. But right now all we have is some no name making claims about things and insulting people claiming we don't understand. For all we know you could be a tandem student with an attitude that is pissed since no one was willing to help you....You *could* also be a guy with some experience and some good ideas. But right now who knows?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Orange1 0
Quoteall i see again in this topic, is yanks saying how it is in their dream world (in USA) and saying because they have a few thousand jumps, they know that's how it is everywhere... and don't dare to say they are wrong because they have 2300 jumps
makes me want to piss myself laughing
Funny, but that's a bit how I see your attitude about SL when you clearly have never made an SL jump, yet seem to think yourself qualified to pronounce on it being inferior.
(btw, I am not a "yank" either)
fwiw, my experience tallies with what the "yanks" say. I did end up paying for a packing course, because I wanted a few hours devoted to having someone teach me without distractions. But there were plenty of people willing to show me how to pack if I was prepared to fit it in around normal DZ activity, and I've seen a number of upjumpers and packers willingly go over to newbies who they can see struggling with a pack job and helping them out.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Andy9o8 0
QuoteMaybe if you filled out a profile, or told us YOUR experience we could have a discussion. But right now all we have is some no name making claims about things and insulting people claiming we don't understand. For all we know you could be a tandem student with an attitude that is pissed since no one was willing to help you....You *could* also be a guy with some experience and some good ideas. But right now who knows?
You're right of course, but the problem with that is that over the past several days, since he signed on, Stiffler has made so many insulting, borderline trolling posts in several threads, that if/when he ever does fill out a profile, I'd have a hard time believing whatever he puts in there.
So much for credibility. After a while, we recognize the pattern: Artistcalledian, UntamedDOG, etc.
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteMaybe if you filled out a profile, or told us YOUR experience we could have a discussion. But right now all we have is some no name making claims about things and insulting people claiming we don't understand. For all we know you could be a tandem student with an attitude that is pissed since no one was willing to help you....You *could* also be a guy with some experience and some good ideas. But right now who knows?
You're right of course, but the problem with that is that over the past several days, since he signed on, Stiffler has made so many insulting, borderline trolling posts in several threads, that if/when he ever does fill out a profile, I'd have a hard time believing whatever he puts in there.
So much for credibility. After a while, we recognize the pattern: Artistcalledian, UntamedDOG, etc.
Judging by this comment in the "Jumping with shades" thread, I would guess he has maybe a couple of AFF jumps:
QuoteLOL
so, you can communicate more using your eyes than you can using your arms and hands can you?
Not to mention the comment somewhere in this thread about the "old crusty" guys... unfortunately we know the path that others who have made similar comments have gone
. Me, I'm happy to listen to the old crusty guys... I would like to survive to one day actually reach the number of jumps and years in the sport they have.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Mike111 0
Although don't we think this has all gotten out of hand?
We have DZ argueing, packing, etc etc etc.
i mean surely, if she is looking to learn it would just be better to keep everything simple and do one step at a time. IE= argue on the same topic.
I mean AFF and packing, Sl and packing, not veyr easy all at once maybe?
One stept at a time.
We have DZ argueing, packing, etc etc etc.
i mean surely, if she is looking to learn it would just be better to keep everything simple and do one step at a time. IE= argue on the same topic.
I mean AFF and packing, Sl and packing, not veyr easy all at once maybe?
One stept at a time.
rehmwa 2
Quotemakes me want to piss myself laughing
don't piss yourself, it attracts dogs
most up-jumpers will help new jumpers, if they don't then your DZ has a serious problem and won't retain for long (at the expense of a few making some short term cash.) In the end, it depends on the individuals at the DZ, not which country, etc.
If someone wants to pay for a good packing course and the personal attention, etc. I have no issue with that. But it's certainly not a requirement to learn to pack. And in my dream world, it's a sad statement if ANY new skydiver thinks that's the ONLY way they'll get help. And I'd also be pretty pissed off at any "working skydiver" that would encourage that type of thinking just to make a couple bucks off a newbie. (I don't know anyone that way BTW, but I get the impression from these postings that there are some like that and they think of that money as their due. That sucks. It's not entitled, it's an opportunity to go after in a fair manner.)
My "dream world" truly is big DZ facilities and skill levels but still the tiny DZ family feel that many of us were lucky enough to grow in when we started.
Fill out your profile. Don't be shy. The experienced here will be glad to help you out if you don't know how. For a small fee
anyway - we can't just give it away. (The first person that calls me "crusty" is going to be thrown in the swimming pool. Cripes, have one more birthday and it all falls to crap)
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
wmw999 2,122
Crusty crusty crusty crusty crustyQuoteThe first person that calls me "crusty" is going to be thrown in the swimming pool. Cripes, have one more birthday and it all falls to crap
Can I giggle while you chase me?
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
rehmwa 2
QuoteCrusty crusty crusty crusty crustyQuoteThe first person that calls me "crusty" is going to be thrown in the swimming pool. Cripes, have one more birthday and it all falls to crap
Can I giggle while you chase me?
oh, you'll giggle all right. you'll giggle.
so far, no stealth pops memberships have shown up in the mail yet
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Ron 7
Quotei mean surely, if she is looking to learn it would just be better to keep everything simple and do one step at a time. IE= argue on the same topic.
I mean AFF and packing, Sl and packing, not veyr easy all at once maybe?
The only thing is that packing/spotting, ect is a part of both programs. And they are part of the question. Their is no doubt in my mind that AFF is better to teach *freefall*. But skydiving is more than just freefall, and in those areas are where the program has its major potential faults. Add in DZ culture (paying to learn to pack vs, making the students learn), student attitude (do they show up on weather days with beer, or do they stay at home and only show on good weather days then bitch they get no attention?)
ALL play into which is the best program to select....And I think all should be considered.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 7
Quoteso far, no stealth pops memberships have shown up in the mail yet
Why do you have to tempt me?
Someone PM me his addy.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Mike111 0
In UK Ron packing is taught separately.
Hell you don;t need to pack until you apply for your B licence.
And thats just getting the canopy in the bag.
Hell you don;t need to pack until you apply for your B licence.
And thats just getting the canopy in the bag.
377 20
I did S/L in 1968. It worked, I am still jumping. I think AFF is an improved training method and if you can afford it, choose AFF. I do hope S/L is kept available as it is a cheap but seldom used entrance into skydiving. When I started, S/L training was $50 including 5 jumps! I didn't have any more spare money back then. If they had offered AFF back then for $100 I woudnt have been able to afford it. You shouldn't have to be wealthy to jump. A lot of people do not have thousands to spend on training. S/L remains the only cheap way into the sport. For that reason alone: Long Live Static Line Training
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Pubwoof 0
Back to your original question, you can probably surmise that neither method is the end all be all. That half of the posters in this thread advocate one while the other half advocate the opposite should be proof enough of that fact. You've probably also surmised that each method has it's advantages and disadvantages. As a coach who jumps with students fresh off of each progression, there do seem to be a few consistent differences between the two methods.
S/L students, at least initially, are focused exclusively on canopy skills before adding freefall a little bit at a time. This more narrow focus tends to result in students who better understand canopy flight, landing patterns, and, as Ron has stated, better spotting skills. I personally don't see how S/L would make anyone a better packer, but this might be an anomoly at some DZs. Where I jump, learning to pack is most directly correlated to the student's desire to learn to pack. The downside is that learning freefall skills is more belated, which isn't necessarily a downside if that belatedness is a better match for how you learn. S/L, from my too brief experience, does tend to generate more spinners and tumblers than does AFF.
AFF students (which was how I learned) tend to have better free fall skills than the S/L students with comparable jump numbers. This isn't an absolute rule, but a consistent probability which happens to make sense. If you really think about it, an AFF student is learning two new sports at the same time, body flight and canopy flight. For most AFF students, learning the same canopy skills will take a little extra time, if only because they're so busy trying to learn freefall skills on the same jumps. Another potential downside to AFF might be getting so accustomed to jumping from full altitude that 3.5k hop'n'pops can be a little scary.
Ultimately, I think the most sage advice that could be applied to your question comes from one of your fellow countrymen, a one Mr. Keith Richards.
He once said that, "If you're going to mess around with dope, know yourself and know your dope." Do what is most comfortable for you. I think someone mentioned that your tunnel time means you should go AFF because you already have a head start on freefall. However, if it makes more sense to you to focus on canopy skills in a S/L program for that very same reason, you should do that instead. You may end up making a decision after you get out there based on the instructor from whom you'll be most comfortable learning. Nobody posting here can possibly know what will be best for you, even if they have a strong opinion about how they became a skygod (I hope you noticed that little recurring theme). 
Have fun no matter which route you take, and keep an open mind. Blue skies!
The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big.
S/L students, at least initially, are focused exclusively on canopy skills before adding freefall a little bit at a time. This more narrow focus tends to result in students who better understand canopy flight, landing patterns, and, as Ron has stated, better spotting skills. I personally don't see how S/L would make anyone a better packer, but this might be an anomoly at some DZs. Where I jump, learning to pack is most directly correlated to the student's desire to learn to pack. The downside is that learning freefall skills is more belated, which isn't necessarily a downside if that belatedness is a better match for how you learn. S/L, from my too brief experience, does tend to generate more spinners and tumblers than does AFF.
AFF students (which was how I learned) tend to have better free fall skills than the S/L students with comparable jump numbers. This isn't an absolute rule, but a consistent probability which happens to make sense. If you really think about it, an AFF student is learning two new sports at the same time, body flight and canopy flight. For most AFF students, learning the same canopy skills will take a little extra time, if only because they're so busy trying to learn freefall skills on the same jumps. Another potential downside to AFF might be getting so accustomed to jumping from full altitude that 3.5k hop'n'pops can be a little scary.
Ultimately, I think the most sage advice that could be applied to your question comes from one of your fellow countrymen, a one Mr. Keith Richards.
He once said that, "If you're going to mess around with dope, know yourself and know your dope." Do what is most comfortable for you. I think someone mentioned that your tunnel time means you should go AFF because you already have a head start on freefall. However, if it makes more sense to you to focus on canopy skills in a S/L program for that very same reason, you should do that instead. You may end up making a decision after you get out there based on the instructor from whom you'll be most comfortable learning. Nobody posting here can possibly know what will be best for you, even if they have a strong opinion about how they became a skygod (I hope you noticed that little recurring theme). Have fun no matter which route you take, and keep an open mind. Blue skies! The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big.
Thanks for that good advice. I don't mind people saying they like one or the other though as I'd like to understand everyone's reasons for chosing the method they did, it all helps really.
Think I've pretty much decided on Aff. If I feel my canopy skills are lacking on completion, I can always invest in a few s/l jumps also. It's all good experience!
Thanks to everyone for all their views and responses
Think I've pretty much decided on Aff. If I feel my canopy skills are lacking on completion, I can always invest in a few s/l jumps also. It's all good experience!
Thanks to everyone for all their views and responses
Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever!
www.myspace.com/byasa
www.myspace.com/byasa
How is it handled? In AFF, there's the instructor landing ahead of you every time. For SL, someone has to be waiting - does he still come out after the student has been cleared off radio?
If they handle it the way I see AFF handling canopy training, the extra 3 jumps doesn't amount to much.
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