Freeflying using a 288 Manta?

[Kynan1 0]

I'm currently renting the student parachute, a 288 Manta. Is there any danger in freeflying with this? If not, what is a helpful tip for flying upside down?
I've managed to fly standing up with my arms out on my 16th jump, it rocks!

[AggieDave 6]

The canopy isn't a problem.

HOWEVER, student rental gear isn't always freefly safe. Especially at a DZ that sill uses Manta canopies. Do a search on what is considered freefly safe in regards to features on a container and see if your container has it. Also, talk to your instructors/former instructors.

In the end, however, you would be really well served by doing 100-200 belly jumps and getting a skill base built up. That will make you a better skydiver and make it easier to learn how to FF.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stratostar 5]

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Especially at a DZ that sill uses Manta canopies.

O.T. but you brought it up, just what is wrong with a manta for a student canopy from your prospective?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AggieDave 6]

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O.T. but you brought it up, just what is wrong with a manta for a student canopy from your prospective?

There are more modern designs that offer more options in size for more proper wingloadings for students. Nevermind teaching more modern canopy flight using a more modern design that will help teach a student how a modern canopy flies that will directly transfer to what the student will end up buying once their licensed.

For example, a Navigator student main. You don't have to put that 100lbs chick out on a 288sq ft canopy loaded at 0.4:1 or so. You can put her under a more appropiate 200sq ft or 220sq ft Navigator. Its a hybrid and flares more like a full ZP sport main and flies more like a modern sport main as well.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,417]

>There are more modern designs . . .

Man, I can remember when getting off student status meant you were allowed to jump the new high performance student canopies (Mantas.)

[AggieDave 6]

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Man, I can remember when getting off student status meant you were allowed to jump the new high performance student canopies (Mantas.)

Yeah, skydiving continues to change and change. Everyone is going to die because we're putting students out on squares!

I was first put out on a Laser 9 280-something. I graduated to getting to jump a Sabre1 233 when I was off student status. Same story as yours, different canopies. Just another example on how the sport continues to evolve.

Bill, would you rather see students learn on those big F-111 canopies then transition straight to a Sabre2 or Pilot or learn on more appropiately sized canopy for the student that flares and flies more like the modern canopy that the student will most likely buy once they get their license?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stratostar 5]

I see so a manta with a Zp top skin is not the same as your example used then? (navigator)
And your right I wouldn't use a 288 manta for a 100lbs girl, I would use one of a few others in stock like a 220 fury or raider and maybe even use a PD 190 or 170 depending on jump numbers.
And for a more advanced student I might use the pilot 188.
However for a first time jumper or someone working on a getting an "A" the manta is a good safe canopy and is very forgiving, as is our 290 and 230 skymasters.

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Nevermind teaching more modern canopy flight

Gee dave glad you pointed out how wrong we been teaching our students all this time, no wonder none of the students can land on the DZ, here we been teaching "modern canopy flight" with without a "modern design canopy", just think of all gas we'll save from having to picking up the students all over the county.

Maybe you should call the president of PIA up and explain to him that letting his son make his first jumps on one of our manta's is not "modern".
Gee I wonder why he chose to bring son to a unmodern DZ with substandard canopies, you would think the president of PIA would have a clue, now wouldn't you.

I'm not really wanting to get into a pissing contest with you here, but making a blanket statement like that sounds as if your telling people "don't go to DZ XYZ, they use dyno farts over there".
I could understand if we were talking about DZ's still using unit's, stratoclouds, and other canopies from the early 80's.

I will side with you on the fact that, yes there are other brands of canopies on the market that are good student canopies, but that don't make a manta any less safe or unable to teach a student "modern canopy flight", that's my prospective.

And if you wish to get ahold Cliff and explain to him how SWC is doing his son a disservice by letting him jump a manta you can reach him here,
[email protected] or call SSK

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AggieDave 6]

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I could understand if we were talking about DZ's still using unit's, stratoclouds, and other canopies from the early 80's.

That's exactly how I referenced it from my original reply. I'm sorry you missed that point. That if they're using old gear then the containers may not be FF friendly. They may (like the DZ I learned at) have ragged out old Dolphins which were most definately NOT freefly friendly.

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And your right I wouldn't use a 288 manta for a 100lbs girl, I would use one of a few others in stock like a 220 fury or raider and maybe even use a PD 190 or 170 depending on jump numbers.

So if a student downsizes from a 288 as they progress through their minimum of 25 jumps for a USPA A license you have them change canopy design each time they downsize to a different size? Why would you do that or would you keep them on a 288 until they bought their own Pilot 150?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stratostar 5]

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So if a student downsizes from a 288 as they progress through their minimum of 25 jumps for a USPA A license you have them change canopy design each time they downsize to a different size? Why would you do that or would you keep them on a 288 until they bought their own Pilot 150?

First of all our students don't down size till closer to 20 jumps, if then. We don't let students get in the mind set that smaller is better and get in a rush to downsize.

And no we don't keep them on a 288 manta till their ready to buy a pilot 150 and then turn them loose with it.
When a student is ready to downsize, they can go to one of the 230 skymasters and then onto a 220, then on to a 190 and then on to a pilot 188.
Once they have shown they can keep from killing them self or others, we work with them on getting demo canopies in the size and brand they may be looking at buying and if need be we will put them back on radio and talk them thur flying the canopy and flairing till them get it down.

We don't want our students to keep up with the current trends of the downsizing we see in the sport today, we feel that a canopy pilot should learn to fly a bigger canopy to is max proformance before moving on to a smaller size. Our injury rate is almost none for students, we have a lot of concrete runways and taxiways and ramps surrounding our landing area see attachment of LZ photo, the few times we have had student hit them, they all have walked away with minor injury.
We have 850 acres of open farm land, yet off of the 850 are some tight spots, keeping students on bigger canopies has kept students from being carried off in a bodybag when they panicked landing off the DZ.
Were big on teaching our students accuracy first with big canopies so they can land where they want to when they need to, we feel this makes a better canopy pilot down the road when they do get their own rig.

I didn't miss your point about using student rigs for FF, I agree with you on using those rigs for FF. But you point out "especially DZ's using mantas" as to say anyone using these canopies are substandard DZ's.
At least that is how your post came across with that statement.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AggieDave 6]

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anyone using thses canopies are substandard DZ's.
At least that is how your post came across with that statement.

Not the intention. Just that a large majority of the DZs I've been on that use a Manta or similar aren't using a hybrid version or even a version that has seen a lineset in the last 5 years.

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We don't want our students to keep up with the current trends of the downsizing we see in the sport today, we feel that a canopy pilot should learn to fly a bigger canopy to is max proformance before moving on to a smaller size.

Devil's advocate: So your students are doing front riser approaches, able to land on their rears, flat turn, land with a brake approach, land downwind, crosswind, avoid obsticles, carve while landing, etc before they downsize? What do you consider "max performance" then? I put over 600 jumps on my last canopy before downsizing and I still don't feel like I got every ounce of max performance out of it. I just felt like I reached a point of deminished returns for what I could learn in the amount of time training with it.

A student that can safely land and fly their canopy while showing proper judgement is a given; however, a student loading at .7:1 on a 288 is at a severe mercey of the winds and thermals. If you start them on that .7:1 for a first jump then about 5-8 jumps into it (fully depends on the student ) and you downsize them something that is closer to .9:1 for the next 5-10 jumps (once again depends on the student, then they're progressively learning how to fly a canopy as well as learning them in environments that are still considered "safe." Its also stepping them towards what they will want to buy when they get that shiney new A-license while they're in your direct control. So they don't get their license and go to a boogie/another DZ and get "talked" into jumping something stupid. I know you've seen it before and I know you've seen it with your past students that should have known better.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Froggy 0]

Not to interfere with a discussion, given my (in)experience, but I just wanted to give you a former student's perspective who started out on a Manta. My progression was Manta-288 (26 jumps total), Laser-250 (18 jumps), Maverick-220 (10 jumps), and 4 jumps on Navigator-220 along the way. Then I got Triathlon-175, which is my present canopy. I can say nothing but good things about Manta being my first canopy. It's very docile, predictable and forgiving canopy. I definitely saw performance difference while transitioning to smaller canopies, but nothing too drastic to indicate a significant difference in handling of those canopies, so I don't quite understand the "old vs. modern" argument. I only had one minor injury (badly sprained ankle), which was clearly my mistake, and had very little if anything to do with the canopy type. While the downsizing from 220 to 175 may seem to be a pretty large step, I didn't do it without talking to many people who knew my skills and saw me flying under different canopies -- including my AFF instructors, DZO, and some fellow jumpers. I can tell that all experience I got on student canopies, starting with Manta, on which I got the most jumps in my student progression, gave me enough skills to safely handle a Tri-175. Currently, I have no desire to downsize in foreseeable future, and I am sticking with my Tri, which works great.

I just want to stress out the forgiveness of a Manta for beginners -- I once saw a bad landing, resulting in a tib/fib fracture. I am pretty sure if that student had anythng more responsive and not as slow and docile as Manta, the outcome may have been worse than that...

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We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...

[phoenixlpr 0]

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so I don't quite understand the "old vs. modern" argument.

You have just a single phase of flare with a F111/low cf canopy like Manta, they don't plane out.

You have to execute 2 phased flare on hybrid/ZP canopies around WL 1.0 and over.

For the record I had a broken fib on a Navigator220.

[Froggy 0]

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You have just a single phase of flare with a F111/low cf canopy like Manta, they don't plane out.

You have to execute 2 phased flare on hybrid/ZP canopies around WL 1.0 and over.

For the record I had a broken fib on a Navigator220.

Oh yes, I understand that... BTW, this was the biggest change for me in landing my Triathlon compared to previous canopies (but I can still manage flaring it in one pull -- not that I would want to). I also did a single-pull flare on Nav-220, and it worked OK (except one time when I got a brain lock, and landed downwind ). However, if you are talking about >1.0 WL, isn't it a bit beyond student level? But yes, I think I get the point of making students getting used to a different feel and technique from the beginning...

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We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...

[phoenixlpr 0]

I don't think it would be a problem to learn how to fly F111/low cf canopies. It never knows when you have to fly a reserve. Prevous experience may save you from injuries.

[yoink 321]

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I'm currently renting the student parachute, a 288 Manta. Is there any danger in freeflying with this? If not, what is a helpful tip for flying upside down?
I've managed to fly standing up with my arms out on my 16th jump, it rocks!

Someone's already pointed out the benefit of getting a good grounding in belly flying before doing some freeflying, but if you really want to continue to freefly, it's worth paying for some coaching rather than going out and learning bad habits on your own that you'll only need to unlearn later.

While I'm sure it felt like you were in a stable stand position, you might well have been shifting all over the sky without knowing it - there's a lot of possibility for moving up and down the jump run when you're learning without a frame of reference.

Slow down and get the basics nailed first - it'll make you an even better skydiver.

[Andy9o8 0]

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While I'm sure it felt like you were in a stable stand position, you might well have been shifting all over the sky without knowing it - there's a lot of possibility for moving up and down the jump run when you're learning without a frame of reference.

I echo this. Full body awareness and control on your belly is highly advisable before moving on to freefly, IMO. When I got recurrent a couple years ago (I'd only been a belly-flyer) and started to learn head-down for the first time, I was taught to just dive out, straighten my legs, look at my feet for a couple seconds, then look at the horizon to assume the position. The coach who went out with me (who I lost sight of for the first several seconds) told me I was backsliding pretty briskly. That can be dangerous; it can send you into the air-column of another group of jumpers. Just an anecdote to illustrate what I'm talking about.

[bozo 0]

[replyThat's exactly how I referenced it from my original reply. I'm sorry you missed that point. That if they're using old gear then the containers may not be FF friendly. They may (like the DZ I learned at) have ragged out old Dolphins which were most definately NOT freefly friendly.
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WOW thanks Dave......I am sure glad I read this thread. I better get rid of the "ragged out" Dolphin I jump every weekend cuz its not freefly friendly and dangerous.
Just as a note......I still jump that "ragged out" Dolphin just for people with attitudes like the one you have exhibited here. If its old...its junk.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[faulknerwn 36]

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You have just a single phase of flare with a F111/low cf canopy like Manta, they don't plane out.

That really depends on the wing-loading. I jump a doggy PD 150 when I want to be on a slow canopy (all F111) but it surfs nicely in no wind. I always do a 2-stage flare on it.. (I also 2-stage flare my reserves)

W

[Andy9o8 0]

I think you're all being way too harsh on Dave. Seems to me the crux of what he's trying to say is summed up here:

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That if they're using old gear then the containers may not be FF friendly.

A perfectly reasonable point. And for that you guys are jumping all over his shit. Gross overreaction.

[bozo 0]

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That if they're using old gear then the containers may not be FF friendly.

reply]

And my point is....if its old gear it "may" be FF friendly.
Watch how big the brush is that you paint with.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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[peek 20]

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I see so a manta with a Zp top skin is not the same as your example used then? (navigator)
And your right I wouldn't use a 288 manta for a 100lbs girl, I would use one of a few others in stock like a 220 fury or raider and maybe even use a PD 190 or 170 depending on jump numbers.

Something else that people may not know is that the "Manta", (which used to be only a 288 sqare foot low porosity canopy) is now available in many sizes and also available as low porosity, fully zero porosity, or hybrid low porosity/zero porosity. All types have the same "traditional" type of flare, and (many) cannot be stalled.

The Navigator is an interesting canopy in that it is partially elliptical, which allows the student to get a feeling for what that type of design flys like, but its "2 stage flare" and planing out can cause trouble with students (usually with only a few jumps) who get excited and jam the toggles down suddenly. (No matter how well you train some student will do that eventually.)

What would be ideal is have both designs, but most drop zones cannot afford to do that.

Having students jump low porosity canopies, (even some with a number of jumps) is not a bad thing. It teaches them to land a reserve, which many experienced skydivers are now terrified of doing.

(There are those who think that it is always best to have the "latest design", which PD often does, but there are suitable canopies other than than PD.)

[DougH 270]

My first solo canopy ride was under a Hornet 210, go figure.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,417]

>. . . or learn on more appropiately sized canopy for the student
> that flares and flies more like the modern canopy that the student
>will most likely buy once they get their license?

In Bill's Ideal World (tm) their first few jumps would be on Mantas or a similar canopy. You sometimes get students that just plain freak out - they stall it at 30 feet, or pull one toggle down at 10 feet (to "break their fall" of course) or do something else dumb. When that happens, size is their only friend.

Once they're past that stage, but still on student status, they would rapidly downsize to about .9 to 1 or 1 to 1. (i.e. a Pilot 210 for your typical 180 lb guy, a Pilot 168 for a 135 lbs woman.) They'd remain on radio and get instruction on the flare, keeping their hands level etc.

[Froggy 0]

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You sometimes get students that just plain freak out - they stall it at 30 feet, or pull one toggle down at 10 feet (to "break their fall" of course) or do something else dumb.

Exactly! An AFF student pulling one toggle down (and it was higher that 10 feet ) and landing in a turn on his first AFF jump resulted in that fracture that I mentioned earlier. I am afraid it would have been worse for him if he had anything above his head that was not as forgiving as a Manta...

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We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...

[stratostar 5]

Good morning Dave.

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We don't want our students to keep up with the current trends of the downsizing we see in the sport today, we feel that a canopy pilot should learn to fly a bigger canopy to is max performance before moving on to a smaller size.

I need to rephrase this, to the "students max performance".

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So your students are doing front riser approaches, able to land on their rears, flat turn, land with a brake approach, land downwind, crosswind, avoid obsticles, carve while landing, etc before they downsize?

No and yes, no front riser, rear riser or carving, that is what advance canopy classes are for.
Front and rear are done up high as per the ISP.
But yes they are doing brake approaches learning accuracy, advance students also learn to sink into the pit, upwind/crosswind, downwind/crosswind landings when the conditions are right to do so or when they just fuck up reading the sock.

Avoiding obstacles is drilled into them from jump one, we don't have a lot of them, but the ones we do have are upwind of the landing area 90% of the time, so we are heavy to teach turbulence/rotors and thermals with all the concrete around the LZ we get a lot of uplift in the summer. All of the trees are to the north if landing out there.
And not to fly over the danger zones at a low attitude.(see attachment view west)
If we are getting a lot of rotors off the hangers we use the clean air outs along side 240.

Advanced students move to pit #2 due to the smaller landing area and the pit is closer to the taxiways making for a tighter LZ, this teaches them to keep their cool and learn to land in a tight area, so in the event they do land off the DZ they have less fear of shooting for a tight off field landing.

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What do you consider "max performance" then?

I consider it using the skills they have been taught and using good judgment once off the radio, no holding upwind and waiting till the last second to run downwind and try to turn back, flying over the no go area to low and coming up short among the hangers and powerlines/AC/ballpark, low turns, not using a left hand pattern, unaware of others airspace in the pattern,knowing when to use the other LZ's due to wind conditions ect. and able to land on target 75% of the time once at that level of piloting.
We have a very good success rate at producing good canopy pilots with a very low injury rate and without having student landing where they shouldn't be.

Do we have some people who just mess up once in a while, sure we do, that is part of learning, most do learn and don't make the same mistake again most of the time, then every now and then we get the ones who should just take up golf as with every DZ.

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So they don't get their license and go to a boogie/another DZ and get "talked" into jumping something stupid. I know you've seen it before and I know you've seen it with your past students that should have known better.

Yes I have, as well as the ones who get that new rig and everything they learned just flew out the window and they fly with their head up their ass, most of the injurys we do have are this type of young hotshot know it all 100 jump wonder who don't want to hear their fuck'n up big time and are going to eat it one day, these are the ones we hope go away so we don't have to clean up the mess.

Andy908
here is a late nite PM from Dave.

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No, definately didn't think you were being a dickhead. I was enjoying the discussion, learning what your thoughts were on canopy choices for students and student downsizing. ***

I think Bozo understood as well as Dave my point in the first few post.

***Watch how big the brush is that you paint with.

Believe it or not, Dave and I are really on the same page when it comes to the safety of students and teaching canopy control/downsizing ect.
But we both seem to like a good debate once in a while, even tho we have not met in person, I think Dave is a good dude who has the best interest of his students safety in mind,, I would trust him to not cut corners and use substandard gear with students or let them jump in conditions that they shouldn't be jumping in.
I know this to be true, because I have read his post for over two years now, I wouldn't think twice to send someone to go learn to skydive with him.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo