Static Line twists / First freefall

[Andy9o8 0]

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Welcome to the sport!

It is because of wrong body position. You do not have time to correct it. On AFF you have more time to correct it. I think AFF is safer.

Start doing AFF jumps and you might change your mind.

I did six AFF jumps right after SL and that is why, IMHO I think AFF is safer.

Of course, you did 23 SL jumps. Most of us got off the rope in 5 or 6. Maybe any jump you did as a student was particularly unsafe.

Plus, you did those AFF jumps as a student. Ask an instructor who's jumpmastered a couple hundred SL students, and been AFFI for a couple hundred AFF jumps, which is safer. Or, maybe 6 or 10 years from now you as an AFFI will have had the invigorating experience of chasing a fetal student down to Cypres altitude. Your perspective might be different.

[teason 0]

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>The static line's direction of pull is at an angle to the student, instead of straight up.

I would add that the system makes a difference. PC assist is more similar to IAD, and results in fewer line twists. However, direct bag pulls the parachute INTO the relative wind before it releases it, leading to some mighty odd openings.

The term we apply to that is "sail effect" where the parachute is blown back on itself. Can certainly make for twists.

By the way, to the guy who blames all S/L twists on body position, twists are also exacerbated by bag design, relative wind (sail effect), the way worn elastics break at sub terminal speeds and even slider placement (you can make a canopy do a fairly consistent 180 line twist by putting the slider on the tail and dumping in forward throw as in an IAD).

I have seen thousands of student deployments on video and high speed still shots.

Lack of body symmetry is only one of many contributing factors in a line twist and although a likely cause, you should never come to the diagnosis of poor body position on a S/L-IAD jump without seeing the exit! I've seen students performance diminish with an uninformed conclusion that can create exit anxiety and problems that were not previously present.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Yossarian 0]

i got serious twists on all 9 of my S/L jumps (the repetitions were because i jumped at different dropzones) despite an apparently spot-on body position, usually on the video you can see very slight hesitations of different lengths as the first few line-stows come off, the bag starts a turn and the prop-wash/relative wind just keeps it going, i havent seen many obviously but from talking to instructors (one with a 2-digit license number...) most linetwists are apparent before the locking stows are off. twists have never bothered me, even when ive occasionally jumped a smaller canopy and it has started to dive off ive just pulled the risers and kicked out without even a missed heartbeat.

i feel so much more confident after qualifying RAPs, whether it be complicated exits (if you can master a sit exit from c206, you can do anything!) to getting out at under 3k (ive know AFF grads at 60jumps who wont get out below 5k because its 'too low'!

[Orange1 0]

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if you can master a sit exit from c206, you can do anything!

I second that It has got to be the most difficult exit possible in skydiving!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[aguila 0]

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Welcome to the sport!

It is because of wrong body position. You do not have time to correct it. On AFF you have more time to correct it. I think AFF is safer.

Start doing AFF jumps and you might change your mind.

I did six AFF jumps right after SL and that is why, IMHO I think AFF is safer.

Of course, you did 23 SL jumps. Most of us got off the rope in 5 or 6. Maybe any jump you did as a student was particularly unsafe.

No wonder. I have seen people with a D license, 994 jumps 31 years on sport and that do not even know why line twists occur yet. No kidding! Please check this link http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=Andy9o8;

Maybe they should have done much more students jumps

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[AFFI 0]

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even when ive occasionally jumped a smaller canopy and it has started to dive off ive just pulled the risers and kicked out without even a missed heartbeat.

Anything else to add concerning dealing with LT's?

Are you forgetting anything?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[diablopilot 2]

So why do line twists occur?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

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The reason for the gradual steps is that it's a safe way for the student to become acclimated with freefall without the need for an instructor to be right along-side him to assure his safety. You don't get to progress to the next level until you've proven the ability do fall stable and deploy on time at the current level. The corollary is that if you've done well on 2 or 3 5-second delays, it's presumed you're safely ready to move on to 10-second delays. It worked for many thousands of jumpers before AFF came out.

This brings me to ask a question that has been on my mind for a little bit... When one is doing his low-second delays, how can the JM judge the jumper's performance, and allow him to pass to the next level? If the student jumps alone, and nobody else is in the air with him, how can JM's observe his ability to control himself in freefall? Maybe on the 5 second jumps the JM can see from the plane? But what about the 10's and 15's? Does a JM occassionally jump with the student to observe, before allowing him to pass on to the longer delays? I've wondered this for a while now, as I am starting my SL progression very soon.

[JohnMitchell 14]

You can watch pretty well through a ten second delay from teh plane. After that, they try to arrange the load with only one long freefall, so the JM can follow the student. Those are a kick. Often the first time they've seen someone else in freefall.

Never, ever, ever fly over their back at any time.

[DougH 270]

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Never, ever, ever fly over their back at any time.

I am guessing that some have a propensity to randomly pull high? Quite the suprize for the JM!!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Zing 2]

True story ... years ago, I put a friend's girlfriend out on her first hop-n-pop after her SL and DRCP jumps. I had the pilot crank a climbing 180 after she jumped, then I got out about 20 seconds after her.
As I fell past her open canopy, off to the side, I yelled, "HOW DIDJA LIKE THAT?" Then I pulled, landed, and forgot all about hollering at her as we packed up and got ready for another load.
Later that night at a local bar she told the bunch around the table that she heard God's voice on her jump.
She never saw me go by her canopy, but she heard me loud and clear.

Zing Lurks

[howardwhite 5]

As noted, it's possible to judge at least 10-second delays from the plane. The JM can easily see whether the student is making (unplanned) turns and/or is on his side or back (especially at pull time.)

It's harder to tell exactly why these things are happening, but the cure is basically the same: awareness of body position.

HW

[Andy9o8 0]

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As noted, it's possible to judge at least 10-second delays from the plane. The JM can easily see whether the student is making (unplanned) turns and/or is on his side or back (especially at pull time.)
It's harder to tell exactly why these things are happening, but the cure is basically the same: awareness of body position.

Which revisits the point I made earlier about the benefits of a hybrid method of teaching. (And Ryan - this is not something to learn here, you should discuss your program with your instructor.) When SL students get "stuck" on 5 or 10 second delays due to instability, unless the student is doing something really obvious like bringing his legs up, or kicking, or "swimming", it's often hard to tell WHY the student is unstable. So, the JM simply tells the student, "Go do it again, and..um...relax this time."

Ha. "Relax", when they're at a stage where they're still so hyped on adrenaline, and going through so much sensory overload during the first couple seconds of freefall, that "relaxing" is the last damn thing they're likely to feel, much less force themselves to do. And just as their lizard brain begins to acclimate to the foreign freefall environment, it's pull time. And, so, they just do the same wrong thing again, and again, and get frustrated. It's at that point that I think the instructor should transition the student over to a couple of AFF-type jumps to coach (with feedback) - and, if necessary, physically assist - the student into a good body position. Then, the student can pick up his delay progression where he left off, but now with more skill and confidence.

[Orange1 0]

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This brings me to ask a question that has been on my mind for a little bit... When one is doing his low-second delays, how can the JM judge the jumper's performance, and allow him to pass to the next level? If the student jumps alone, and nobody else is in the air with him, how can JM's observe his ability to control himself in freefall? Maybe on the 5 second jumps the JM can see from the plane? But what about the 10's and 15's? Does a JM occassionally jump with the student to observe, before allowing him to pass on to the longer delays? I've wondered this for a while now, as I am starting my SL progression very soon.

I've seen it done with another JM watching thru binocs from the ground as well.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skymanfoob 0]

I think line twists during S/L jumps are awesome! um...wait, what was the question?

It's amazing that a simple question like that can bring on the attitude. Really, there are a few good reasons for line twists on S/L, and it's pretty simple for anyone to narrow down the logical causes.....it's pretty elementary.

[14000andfalling 0]

I was thinking the same thing myself!
I think i'm more confused now than when I asked the question!

There has been some good feedback though, and I know that my instructor won't let me go up unless he/she is confident that I can deal with Line Twists if/when they occur.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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There has been some good feedback though, and I know that my instructor won't let me go up unless he/she is confident that I can deal with Line Twists if/when they occur.

Line twists are very easy to deal with, not a malfunction but just a nuisance on the type of canopies you'll be jumping. Don't worry about them at all. I've had hundreds of line twists.

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[phoenixlpr 0]

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Line twists are very easy to deal with, not a malfunction but just a nuisance on the type of canopies you'll be jumping. Don't worry about them at all. I've had hundreds of line twists. Smile

Why is not that a malfunction? Can you steer your canopy in line twist? Can you do controllability check? Would you land in a line twist?

Line twist is a low speed malfunction.

[damion75 0]

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Why is not that a malfunction?

Because it can be fixed. I would not expect to chop a line twist on a Skymaster or Manta (or similar student canopy)

Not to confuse this issue with line twists on a HP elliptical handkerchief.

The official malfunctions are, after all, listed in the FJC... and line twists are not amongst them.

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Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Because it can be fixed. I would not expect to chop a line twist on a Skymaster or Manta (or similar student canopy)

Not to confuse this issue with line twists on a HP elliptical handkerchief.

The official malfunctions are, after all, listed in the FJC... and line twists are not amongst them.TongueCool

Using your binary logic its not a malfunction, because you don't have to cut-away....

You can not steer or land a canopy in line twist.

Its a malfunction, because it prevents you using your canopy the usual way and it requires immediate action.

[dragon2 0]

Above your decision altitude, linetwists are a nuisance, closer to your decision altitude they become serious/a malfunction. Same goes for a slider that won't come down, etc.

At least that's how we teach it here

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[AFFI 0]

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You can not steer or land a canopy in line twist.

Its a malfunction, because it prevents you using your canopy the usual way and it requires immediate action.

Agreed - it is a malfunction that is POTENTIALLY fixable.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Why is not that a malfunction? Can you steer your canopy in line twist? Can you do controllability check? Would you land in a line twist?

Line twist is a low speed malfunction.

Ah, so many questions.

A malfunction is something knotted, tied off, tangled, ripped, or broken, that can't be landed. Sometimes tangles and knots can be undone by pumping the toggles, sometimes not. Worked once or twice for me.

Line twists are simply twists that can be kicked out of, especially on low speed, lightly loaded student canopies. Never seen any that wouldn't come undone in a reasonable amount of time, never, even if the student just hung there like a slab of bacon.

Now if you're on a high performance canopy that starts to spin, it's a whole different story. You don't have time. Another problem is with Icarus tandem canopies. They are packed without the brakes set. You have full forward speed after opening. If the passenger has his legs out in front, the weathervane effect will keep you from kicking out of line twists, at least easily. Something to think about.

But from where the original poster was asking, line twists are not a big deal. Anyone jumping a Spinetto or higher performance canopy should know the difference. I don't think my advice will bounce anyone.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Line twist on any canopy is a malfunction, but its quite easily solved if its flying stable and strait.

Malfunctions for safety section

[yoink 321]

When I went through my SL course, the very first part of our emergency procedures was to look at the canopy, make a decision and then start reeling off the procedures out loud. The first thing that we were taught to shout was 'malfunction'...
That is immediately followed by the look, locate, peel, pull etc.

I'm guessing that's why we were taught that line twists were in the 'nusiance' section of the course along with end cell closure. Putting it in the 'Malfunctions' section may confuse a student into automatically following their emergency procedures when there's no need. Word association can be pretty compelling....

'Malfunction' is a 'don't screw around, chop it', process, a 'Nusiance' is a 'This is fixable - try and sort it above your hard deck' process.