craddock 0 #151 October 19, 2004 QuoteIf you are under a streamer that goes so low that your CYPRES fires....Its a malfunction. Remember the hard deck according to the USPA is 1800 feet. . Yes and if I was forced to chop every partial mal above that "hard deck", I would have a good number of cutaways added to the four than I did chop. I wonder if you would not have a few more also. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #152 October 19, 2004 Quoteyou don't want to be responsible for your actions, fuck you. Go be an asshole somewhere else (preferably not a DZ). The fine art of diplomacy? I was told that it consisted of the ability to tell people that they could go to hell in such tone that they were looking forward to the trip... BTW: Cypres opening due to lack of altitude awareness ? When I was young, handsome and stupid somebody held on to me in an accordeon until 2300 ft. Then he let go, floated up and dumped. As I opened my main my FXC 12000 fired. The 'directeur technique' of La Ferte Gaucher (France) chewed me an extra ashole and told me I was on probation from that moment on. One more stupid trick and I wasn't welcome anymore. In retrospect I think I should have been suspended for 30 days. (Someone having a firm grip on your leg is no excuse for not pulling AND what better wake up call is there than the other guy's opening?) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #153 October 19, 2004 QuoteYes and if I was forced to chop every partial mal above that "hard deck", I would have a good number of cutaways added to the four than I did chop. I wonder if you would not have a few more also. Still does not make it safe. I wonder how many people have burned in thinking "It will open"?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #154 October 19, 2004 ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #155 October 20, 2004 FWIW, my first trip to perris ever was the 2000 nationals. there was a 20-something way outta the dc-3 and i believe there were 3 maybe 4 cypres fires. there were at least 2 people that had 2 out and one or two cut away. someone correct me if i'm wrong. i just remember seeing a fucking good spot because 2 or 3 of the freebags fell right in front of me as i was looking towards the landing area. i remember it raining freebags and canopies. alll the folks that pulled low were scheduled to compete at that nationals. they were all told told to pack their toys because they weren't allowed to jump at nationals after that episode. i know a couple of the folks and they are very experienced (5 digit jump numbers). so they were punished for their actions in the sense that their teams had to scramble and find someone to fill their slot - teams that had trained all year long. bottom line is they all fucked up and they, along with their teammates, felt the repercussion of their actions. as much as i hated to see these people not get to compete, i feel the decision by perris mgmt was the correct one. i also feel that perris (or any other dz) reserves the right to institute whatever punishment they deem necessary to fit the situation. hell, if they want to ground you for life, that is their decision to make. as dave said, it's their sandbox...and the rest of it too. if you feel like you want to play around and lose altitude awareness, then maybe find a dz that doesn't give a shit about you and go there. there really is no excuse for loss of altitude awareness being the cause of a cypres fire - NONE. what can be more important in skydiving than knowing that YOU need to pull with enough time to get an open canopy? it's a pretty simple concept. i don't get why people think this is something that only requires a tiny slap on the wrist. boys and girls, this ain't fucking romper room.... blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #156 October 20, 2004 Quoteboys and girls, this ain't fucking romper room.... Man, that's harsh.........---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #157 October 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteboys and girls, this ain't fucking romper room.... Man, that's harsh......... Harsh, but it seems to apply to way some people react to being held responsible for their actions or lack of action. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #158 October 20, 2004 Quotethere really is no excuse for loss of altitude awareness being the cause of a cypres fire - NONE. Agreed. If the only issue was a lack of altitude awareness, I don't understand how anyone argues the seriousness. It is surprising that this isn't already a policy in other places also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #159 October 20, 2004 ***there really is no excuse for loss of altitude awareness being the cause of a cypres fire - NONE. ===================================== I think a distinction that opposers to this rule are not making is that a Cypress fire is not the result of a simple loss of altitude awareness; it's the result of a GROSS loss of altitude awareness. I usually like to get a PC out around 3k or 3.5K. If I lose alt. awareness, I'm throwing out at 2k or 2.5k, more than twice Cypres fire alt. I have a little wiggle room built into the plan. If you are going to plan a dive where your intended pull alt. is 2k, you need to be on the ball. You need to realize that you are taking it right to the limit, and to proceed accordingly. There is no wiggle room. A brief lapse of awareness will result your options closing in on you in a hurry. I jump with a Cypres, and have seen enough video of main and reserve entanglements or downplanes that I regard Cypres fire alt. with as much concern as I regard the ground. I see a Cypres fire during my main deployment to be a serious risk to my health and well being. The fact that anyone thinks it's OK, or excusable that their snivel took them into firing alt. with enough speed to cause a firing is rediculous. You know you have a Cypres, you know it's on, respect that and plan around it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #160 October 20, 2004 QuoteQuotethere really is no excuse for loss of altitude awareness being the cause of a cypres fire - NONE. Agreed. If the only issue was a lack of altitude awareness, I don't understand how anyone argues the seriousness. It is surprising that this isn't already a policy in other places also. Who's arguing the seriousness? I thought the debate was about the appropriateness of grounding as the DZ's response. I think other measures are more appropriate and likely to be more effective, such as mandatory additional training. And I suspect it really depends on the personality of the offender as to what would be the most effective measure.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #161 October 21, 2004 QuoteWho's arguing the seriousness? I thought the debate was about the appropriateness of grounding as the DZ's response. Agreed - it is as serious as a heart attack. There is no jump out there that should result in one, nor should anyone put themself in a position to have a fire by screwing around and forgetting that large, round, fast approaching, hard object below you. I would never argue that. Plus I would never argue that a DZ can't make/enforce any rules it seems fit to keep them in business. My biggest concern is that a known public rule like this will cause people to keep their AAD turned off. A rule with positive, life-saving intentions can have just the opposite effect...esp with a crowd as stubborn and independent as skydivers. Grounding those jumpers that Arlo mentioned was a wise course of action - gross negligence like that is dangerous, esp in a large crowd. But think about this - how many 3, 4 or 5-digit wonders turned off their AADs during fun/practice jumps to make sure their full year of training wasn't ruined by a Cypres fire? Stupid idea? Yup! But very possible._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #162 October 21, 2004 ***My biggest concern is that a known public rule like this will cause people to keep their AAD turned off ===================================== Anyone falling into this catagory......defies description. How stupid would you have to be to spend the money to buy, install, and maintain an AAD, only to leave it off for fear of being grounded for 30 days (which directly implies that you feel a Cypres fire is a real possiblity in your future) ? I see your point, but man would it take a box of rocks for a brain to actually do such a thing. My guesss is that we'll see it happen once or twice a year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #163 October 21, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My biggest concern is that a known public rule like this will cause people to keep their AAD turned off ===================================== Anyone falling into this catagory......defies description. How stupid would you have to be to spend the money to buy, install, and maintain an AAD, only to leave it off for fear of being grounded for 30 days (which directly implies that you feel a Cypres fire is a real possiblity in your future) ? I see your point, but man would it take a box of rocks for a brain to actually do such a thing. My guesss is that we'll see it happen once or twice a year. My feelings exactly....Anyone that stupid needs a CYPRES."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #164 October 22, 2004 I don't think so. I would guess that (like a bunch of teenagers) many of us do not acknowledge that it might be *me* who fucks up. The possibility of *my* cypres firing would not take up any serious space in my mind, probably....unfortunately. I would still turn mine on because it's safer to do so.... I would consider the possibility of its firing slim...and if it did fire, I think that its life-saving properties would outweigh a possible grounding by the dzo. QuoteQuoteWho's arguing the seriousness? I thought the debate was about the appropriateness of grounding as the DZ's response. Agreed - it is as serious as a heart attack. There is no jump out there that should result in one, nor should anyone put themself in a position to have a fire by screwing around and forgetting that large, round, fast approaching, hard object below you. I would never argue that. Plus I would never argue that a DZ can't make/enforce any rules it seems fit to keep them in business. My biggest concern is that a known public rule like this will cause people to keep their AAD turned off. A rule with positive, life-saving intentions can have just the opposite effect...esp with a crowd as stubborn and independent as skydivers. Grounding those jumpers that Arlo mentioned was a wise course of action - gross negligence like that is dangerous, esp in a large crowd. But think about this - how many 3, 4 or 5-digit wonders turned off their AADs during fun/practice jumps to make sure their full year of training wasn't ruined by a Cypres fire? Stupid idea? Yup! But very possible.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #165 October 22, 2004 QuoteAnyone that stupid needs a CYPRES. Actually I think they need bowling. How ever I will admit there are very specific skydives I've shut mine off for. (well I used to shut them off for before I removed them from my rigs.)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #166 October 22, 2004 Nicely put Dave...........................wallysmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #167 October 24, 2004 PLUS I have some beautiful oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell them. I don't pay $1200 for too many things and then NOT use them. I'll resist the temptation to make a tasteless gene pool type joke here. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TOT 0 #168 October 26, 2004 Quote Why aren't there mandatory suspensions for other accidents which can result in death? i.e. making a low turn..? There are.. My Dr. wont let me jump for 6 months after my last low turn. TOT Landing with your hands still on your front risers does not work... Trust me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jbrasher 0 #169 November 1, 2004 "Disagree with this policy. You never improved anyone's performance by preventing them from practicing for 30 days. " It's not to prevent them from anything, it's just to make sure they have enough time to gather/think about the information/skills necessary to make sure it doesn't happen again. They should have had the information from the beginning but seem to lack the skill part.. NOTE: I said information NOT HARDWARE. Just because you got hardware doesn't mean you have the skills. Red, White and Blue Skies, John T. Brasher D-5166 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #170 November 1, 2004 Quote"Disagree with this policy. You never improved anyone's performance by preventing them from practicing for 30 days. " It's not to prevent them from anything, it's just to make sure they have enough time to gather/think about the information/skills necessary to make sure it doesn't happen again. They should have had the information from the beginning but seem to lack the skill part.. NOTE: I said information NOT HARDWARE. Just because you got hardware doesn't mean you have the skills. What evidence do you have that grounding is the most effective method of doing this? What alternatives have you considered?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #171 November 1, 2004 QuoteWhat evidence do you have that grounding is the most effective method of doing this? What alternatives have you considered? What evidence do you have that it will not fix the problem?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #172 November 1, 2004 >What evidence do you have that it will not fix the problem? Not sure that's such a fair question to ask. I could claim that killing a chicken every day at sunrise could prevent cypres fires - and when someone asked why on earth I thought that would work, I could answer "can you prove it won't?" There are two ways I see a grounding working: -it can get people prone to cypres fires out of the air, thus reducing cypres fires (although this is more an argument for a permanent rather than a temporary ban) -it can 'make people think' by doing something that annoys them (i.e. grounding them) You might also argue that grounding them would give them the opportunity to get additional training, but that doesn't require grounding - it would take a mandatory retrain for anyone who has a cypres firing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #173 November 1, 2004 Quote> -it can 'make people think' by doing something that annoys them (i.e. grounding them) You can't make people think. For some personality types a grounding will have the exact opposite effect from what you desire.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #174 November 1, 2004 QuoteNot sure that's such a fair question to ask. It is as fair a question to ask as Johns question was. How do we know grounding will work? How do we know it will not? Fact is for some it might work, and for others nothing will. Also you can debate, study...ect any issue. It requires experimentation to prove or disprove a theory. BC feels that the current situation was not working and that there was a problem. He thought about it and put a program in place to fix it. 1. Identify a problem 2. Brainstorm solutions. 3. Review solutions and network to see it any have been used and what the results were. 4. Pick a solution. 5. Implement. 6. Monitor for effect. 7. Re-evaluate solution. We are at step 5 going into 6. I am sure step 7 will follow."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #175 November 1, 2004 What kind of retraining would you do? "Joe, don't go low... understand? good ... have a good jump" Afriend of mine was forced to learn real quick not to rely on his audible. He was on his back video taping upward. As his reserve pilot chute was passing him on the side, he rolled over to notice near impact. The person he filmed got her main out and then a cypres fire as well. He wasn't going to jump neither was she but the kind folks at the dz loaned them rigs. From that point on, low wasn't a problem. They were trained the instant they were aware they had gone low. It hasn't happened again. I'm not arguing for or against the rule, it is what it is. I'm just curious what kind of training? AFF style Circle of Awareness type stuff? That would be fun. I like the chicken Idea.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
