Ron 7 #101 October 17, 2004 QuoteI know of a recent incident on an AFF jump where the student began to tumble out of control at pull time. The instructor (fairly experienced) chased the student and ended up pulling very low after dumping out the student. The instructor had a very slow opening canopy and had a cypres fire causing a 2 out situation. Now we all know that as an AFF instructor you are taught that at a certain point the student is on their own, but I can imagine that in that situation all you are thinking about is saving the students life. Should the instructor be grounded for 30 days? Hey Oren, To answer that question from my point of view, please answer this question for me: Did the Instructor lose altitude awareness? If Yes, ground them. If No, talk to them about the 2 grand "save yourself, I'd rather have one crater on the DZ than two" hard deck. There are times when low pulls are not a bad thing....And that is where DZO's and S&TA's need to use common sense. Just my thoughts."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #102 October 17, 2004 QuoteI think people may overestimate the accuracy of the cypres. It will fire somewhere between 500 and 1200 feet depending on your position, how it's mounted, the relative accuracy of the sensor, ground altitude difference, daily pressure changes etc. And 1200 feet is 800 feet lower than the most experienced person is allowed to open accodring to the USPA. So while a CYPRES MAY fire at 1200 feet...You are already way to low, and only 8 seconds from killing yourself. QuoteA suprise cypres firing, where the jumper is caught unawares, is a very big deal. A cypres that fires three seconds after you open your main, or one that happens at about the same time as your reserve pull, is less of a big deal (though certainly still an issue.) It is indicative of a jumper who opened too low, not of a jumper who would certainly have otherwise died. And how many times have you been told by a jumper that had a CYPREs fire "I was just getting ready to pull my (insert favorite handle here), when it fired."? I would say most cases where a Cypres fires it was just a low main pull and the person might have been fine.....But still, they pulled low and without a good reason. They were breaking the rules and put their life in greater danger than it needed to be. A grounding is such a small penalty for an act that could easily kill."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #103 October 17, 2004 QuoteIt will do wonders as long as you are certain the person is repentant and introspective. As Kallend mentioned, they may just spend 30 days being angry and blaming anything but their own actions for being responsible. (I know I don't need to talk about how many people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, or inaction, as the case may be.) If it does nothing else it will prevent them from bouncing on your land. Also it will show to others that you are seroius about safety and they might not need the CYPRES fire to shape up.... People, a CYPRES fire IS a big deal. Even if it was "just" a low pull. A low pull in itself is a groundable offense. QuoteWhy wouldn't an AFF level 6 jump be an appropriate way to deal with the problem in addition to a grounding? An AFF level 6 would in no way impart anything to a guy with over 100 jumps...Hell, I don't think it would teach anything to a guy that has 20 jumps. We all know we need to pull before impact, we all know that an altimeter is useful in keeping from impacting....None of this is information that gets old, or that people forget. Most people who have a CYPRES fire are so busy in a skydive that they lose track of altitude. An AFF level 6 is NOT going to do anything but make a guy more pissed at having to spend 150 bucks to do a jump that will serve no purpose. I am willing to bet you could do all the TLO's of an AFF 6 jump in 4 thousand feet...So that will not really tax you, and you will not learn a lesson. So all you want to do is punish them with a fine, and not time off. I can't MAKE anyone learn a lesson. I can however provide them the environment they need to learn it. In my little world I would have a book filled with pictures of bounces. If you did something as stupid as a CYPRES fire I would march you into my office and make you look through that book. I would also include letters from the friends and family of the guys in the pictures. You would go home for 30 days with copies of those letters. One thing that you will notice is that those of us that have seen a bounce....Don't tend to think the same way as you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #104 October 17, 2004 QuoteAccording to the original post, the problem came to a head after "several" Cypres fires in the last month or so. As busy as Perris gets, and they just hosted the Nationals, several Cypres fires really are unacceptable. Sparky, you probably remember back in 1980 at Perris there was a problem with too many people losing their pud handles on their hand deploys and pulling their reserves. Management got fed up with that one as well and announced the next reserve ride due to a lost handle would be grounded. And guess what, the problem dried up real quick (I know because I was one of 'em and I got my pilot chute setup reconfigured). So the threat of grounding does work to clear up situations that are simply getting out of control. By the way, there was a legit9mate Cypres save at Perris a month or so back. A jumper doing a backloop accidently kicked another jumper around his neck and shoulders, putting a "Spock" on one of his nerves. The guy went completely numb and could not move his arms. He tried desperately to reach his handles and his arms would not budge. All he could keep asking himself was "Did I turn my Cypres on ? Oh please, am I sure I turned it on ?". He did and it worked, but he had to watch the ground rush get pretty bad first. THAT'S the kind of situation a Cypres is meant for, not for some yo-yo who's tracking around on his back with a dead battery in his Dytter. Tom, Yes, I do remember the problem with losing PC puds. I was one of them. I tried laying it off on the fact I had a new rig but the real reason was I was getting lazy on my pull. The jumper that could not move his arms after being his in freefall was Rick Th........ I talked with him a couple of weeks later and it gave me chills. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #105 October 17, 2004 Quote When was the last time you heard someone warned about pulling low? I don't think it happens so much now. Apparently you were not at Rantoul this year. I saw more low pulls and AAD fires in a two hour period than I have during my five years in this sport. Oh yea, and of course the Mr Bill Landing (technically the all-time winner of the low pull contest). [tangent] The interesting part? Watching a chronic low-puller bitch out one of them. Don't you love double standards? Thats the one thing about this sport I've never understood - how many double standards there are.[/tangent]_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #106 October 18, 2004 >And 1200 feet is 800 feet lower than the most experienced person > is allowed to open accodring to the USPA. So while a CYPRES MAY >fire at 1200 feet...You are already way to low, and only 8 seconds >from killing yourself. Agreed; but as I am sure you have been 10 seconds from killing yourself many times on dives you do not consider near-death, I don’t consider a cypress firing at 1200 feet (just as the jumper is deploying a main or reserve) to be certain death (or even close to that.) It’s generally foolish though. I agree that drop zones can do whatever they want to enforce safety, and I would have no problem with a drop zone that grounded anyone who had a cypres firing regardless of the reason. Or, for that matter, one who grounded people who did hook turns or did not land in the same direction as the first person down, no matter what the reason – although I would hope they use common sense along with such rules. It’s their DZ, and it is up to them to enforce whatever rules they choose to keep people there safe. >And how many times have you been told by a jumper that had a >CYPREs fire "I was just getting ready to pull my (insert favorite > handle here), when it fired."? Twice; but once the jumper had a good excuse – she had gotten hit so hard that she was semiconscious. The other one simply lost altitude awareness. On the other hand, I have seen a good 30-35 cypres firings over the year (mainly at boogies) where the cypress fired well after the main began to deploy. Again, I would have no problem if the DZ grounded these people, but I don’t agree with the thought that “his cypress saved him from certain death.” It did not save them from certain death any more than my RSL saved me from certain death on my first two cutaways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #107 October 18, 2004 Quote Twice; but once the jumper had a good excuse – she had gotten hit so hard that she was semiconscious. The other one simply lost altitude awareness. On the other hand, I have seen a good 30-35 cypres firings over the year (mainly at boogies) where the cypress fired well after the main began to deploy. Again, I would have no problem if the DZ grounded these people, but I don’t agree with the thought that “his cypress saved him from certain death.” It did not save them from certain death any more than my RSL saved me from certain death on my first two cutaways. You've seen 30-35 Cypres fires THIS YEAR!!???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #108 October 18, 2004 "over the" is usually followed by "years". Methinks it's a typo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #109 October 18, 2004 Quote"over the" is usually followed by "years". Methinks it's a typo Hope so. Yipes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #110 October 18, 2004 Unless he's taken a job at Airtec Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #111 October 18, 2004 MO... It's a good rule. It'll have some effect, but not as much as a change of culture - when Cypres saves due to stupidity start to become unacceptable to your peers and mentors, the same way as toggle hook turns are/have become, that's when I think we'll see the biggest drop. "30 day ban? So what?" will be said by some... Having a mentor take the piss out of you and look down on you for being stupid will make you feel about an inch tall... you won't do it again. Skydivers don't like enforced rules, but peer pressure works a treat! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #112 October 18, 2004 I agree...peer pressure works best....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #113 October 18, 2004 Sorry, 30-35 cypreses over the years (14 years to be exact.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #114 October 18, 2004 QuoteIt'll have some effect, but not as much as a change of culture - when Cypres saves due to stupidity start to become unacceptable to your peers and mentors, the same way as toggle hook turns are/have become, that's when I think we'll see the biggest drop. "30 day ban? So what?" will be said by some... Having a mentor take the piss out of you and look down on you for being stupid will make you feel about an inch tall... you won't do it again. I agree with you 100%...But have you seen even on just this thread how some people don't consider a CYPRES fire a big deal? That is wrong. But many of todays jumpers don't think its a big deal. And when older jmpers say something we are considered to be unreasonable,a nd unflexable. Simple fact, I have seen more Cypres fires in the last few years than I ever saw in the first 5 that the device was around and the total of CYPRES fires are higher than no/low pull fatalities. New skydivers don't seem to think of a CYPRES save as a big deal. That needs to change."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #115 October 18, 2004 Quote Simple fact, I have seen more Cypres fires in the last few years than I ever saw in the first 5 that the device was around and the total of CYPRES fires are higher than no/low pull fatalities. New skydivers don't seem to think of a CYPRES save as a big deal. Alter that to *some* new skydivers and I might believe you, Ron. And not to say it accounts for all of the increase, but the cypres ownership rate in the first 5 years was dramatically lower than it is now, was it not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #116 October 18, 2004 QuoteAlter that to *some* new skydivers and I might believe you, Ron. I might chance it to *most*, but not *some*. Not to start the old debate, but you know how I feel about people buying toys instead of training more. QuoteAnd not to say it accounts for all of the increase, but the cypres ownership rate in the first 5 years was dramatically lower than it is now, was it not? And there are more new jumpers, more jumps being made, more slower opening canopies...ect. But the collective ATTITUDE has also changed. When the CYPRES first came out and you had a CYPRES fire we all considered it a big deal and that you really fucked up. Today that attitude is different. The old guys still have the same attaitude as before, so it's the new folks that are not thinking it is a big deal."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #117 October 18, 2004 Wait a minute here, folks. Let's think about this. We skydive for excitement. If you haven't witnessed a CYPRES save from the ground, and all the aftermath, you haven't seen excitement! I mean, why wear an AAD if it isn't going to be used once in a while? What a waste of all that technology! I say just make sure all the BOZO's out there have one in their rig, then turn 'em on, open the door, and watch the action when they go BANG! Think of it sort of like this; why does anyone watch NASCAR? It damn sure isn't just to watch the cars go round and round! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #118 October 18, 2004 > When the CYPRES first came out and you had a CYPRES fire we all >considered it a big deal and that you really fucked up. Today that > attitude is different. I've noticed the exact opposite. When I was jumping in 91, I saw a few cypres firings, and they were all scoffed at as 'cypres misfires.' "Hey, I pulled just under 2000 feet, like I always do! And my Crusilite always snivels, but it always opens. Damn thing must have misfired." I remember Airtec doing several analyses based on video and cypres data to prove to people that they really were firing at 1200 feet, not 1600. Nowadays people get grounded. People take it a lot more seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #119 October 18, 2004 QuoteI've noticed the exact opposite Heres a news flash...you don't agree with me... QuoteWhen I was jumping in 91, I saw a few cypres firings, and they were all scoffed at as 'cypres misfires.' "Hey, I pulled just under 2000 feet, like I always do! And my Crusilite always snivels, but it always opens. Damn thing must have misfired." And it was taken as a big deal...big enough of a deal that airtect did a bunch of testing. Todays new jumpers don't see the fires as a big deal. Back then we did. It was at first seen as a misfire of a dangerous device, then later as a save for an act of stupidity. Now its "just a fire". QuoteNowadays people get grounded. They got grounded back then as well where I jumped. QuotePeople take it a lot more seriously. Then why so many more fires? And why the attitude of some on here that a grounding is to "harsh"?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #120 October 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteEveryone is not cut out for this sport. I don't think it's fair to make this statement. I do. I can name a few."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #121 October 18, 2004 QuoteI think people may overestimate the accuracy of the cypres. It will fire somewhere between 500 and 1200 feet depending on your position Even if it was the top end (1200 ft), I am not interested in hearing how it "wasn't that dangerous" or any rationalization. If someone was about to attempt to dump their main at 500-800 ft, that is a seriously dangerous altitude awareness problem. If they had no cypres and successfully deployed their main, they would be in danger of being killed. That needs to be addressed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #122 October 18, 2004 QuoteThen why so many more fires? My guess would be that most new jumpers get them now, and a lot of the older generation have converted over as well. Also, there are now more turbine DZs that can churn out more jumps over a weekend. And then there are the DZ that require a Cyrpess. Thus, more jumps with an AAD increases the chances of a fire. The number of fires we have now will be higher by default. We would need the exact number of Cypres units in a rig over the years compared to the amount of fires to get a true understanding of how complacent the sport has/has not become._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #123 October 18, 2004 >Even if it was the top end (1200 ft), I am not interested in hearing >how it "wasn't that dangerous" or any rationalization. Nor, I suspect, will you hear that. Opening at 1600 feet _is_ dangerous, and the only time it's justified is to avoid a more serious danger (i.e. someone above you at 2000 feet.) Needless to say, not getting in that situation to begin with is certainly a better option than those two. However, claiming that anyone who has had a cypres fire would otherwise be dead is silly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #124 October 18, 2004 >Then why so many more fires? 1. Almost everyone has a cypres now 2. Many people have very snively canopies 3. Many people (headdowners) do not ever look at the ground in freefall. >And why the attitude of some on here that a grounding is to "harsh"? Same reason some people think doing drugs and jumping is OK as long as "they can handle it" I suppose. Everyone has a different level of acceptable risk. In the end, the only person whose opinion matters in such cases is the DZO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #125 October 18, 2004 QuoteMy guess would be that most new jumpers get them now, and a lot of the older generation have converted over as well. Also, there are now more turbine DZs that can churn out more jumps over a weekend. And then there are the DZ that require a Cyrpess. Thus, more jumps with an AAD increases the chances of a fire. The number of fires we have now will be higher by default. True and I said as much. QuoteWe would need the exact number of Cypres units in a rig over the years compared to the amount of fires to get a true understanding of how complacent the sport has/has not become. Not true. All you have to do to find out how complacent the sport has become is listen to people whine about getting grounded for a fire, or listen to people who refuse to jump without an AAD. Having the numbers of total jumps made with/without an AAD and the total number of fires/bounces would give you valuble info...(info you will NEVER get). But to find out the complacency the sport has become all you need to do is listen and watch. The number of AAD fires is much higher than the amount of low pull deaths. That could be attributed to the hugher number of jumps made by a larger group of people. However, to determine the *attitude* of those jumpers. all you have to do is watch and listen."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
