Richmond Boogie

[AFFI 0]

I will take the role of devils advocate on this one...

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Young jumpers cannot progress up the ladder the way the system is set up now, too friggin much training required.

If young jumpers cannot progress up the ladder, then how can there be so many here on DZ.com whose jump numbers are -100 with -1 year in the sport? I personally see newcomers to the sport climb the ladders and learning curves continuously.
Perhaps I do not understand the point you are making...

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The cost of AFF is outrageous

I am not a DZO, but I do know that it cost over 22k to fill the primary fuel tank at the DZ and each student rig cost in excess of 3k – insurance, maintenance and minor repairs on the AC cost many many thousands of dollars as well.
Operating a DZ has staggering overhead.
My understanding is that "back in the day" of the $30 first jump they were jumping left over military surplus gear, jumping out of ill maintained jump planes (stories I have heard).
I have not been in the sport very long, but would rather pay more for current gear, well maintained AC and training methods over what was being used in 1970.

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They want to train you up (for a fee) until you're an expert, just like the military

Obviously, you are not ex-military. Hardly many "experts" unless you consider 5 jumps being good to go.
There is cream in any bucket of milk, and the smallest portion rises to the top, the smallest portion of military is "elite".

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Nowadays, it seems they expect you to be able to do 4 ways to get an A licence

Where is this requirement on the A License Proficiency card?

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where all thats really necessary is to be stable, do turns, and get yourself to the ground safely

What is necessary is the ability to regain stability from an unstable body position by demonstrating body control in freefall, deal with malfunctions and pilot a canopy to a safe landing.
So we agree there for the most part.
The A license requirements are deficient in what way exactly?

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An A licence is now where a C licence used to be.

You used to be able to get a C license with 25 jumps?

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They fool people into thinking they will be good skydivers, if they only spend $3,000 to do it. How dissapointing it must be to the many of those that spent the money on AFF, with promises of being good, and then discovered they weren't.

“Good” is a subjective term, not certain what you mean by "good".
Olympic hopefuls dedicate their lives and spend fortunes. The vast majority will not even make it close to the Olympics.
30 years ago, just putting a kid through little league took a lot of commitment.

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Train, train, train.
excessive training

How is repetition in preparing oneself for handling emergencies in a life or death situation "excessive"? I would take current training methods over what was available in 1970 any day of the week.
But that is just coming from a “New Age” instructor if you will.

If one of my loved ones where being trained by someone with such a lackadaisical attitude I would recommend to them that they obtain an instructor who takes their responsibilities as a USPA Solo Freefall Instructor seriously.
We are training individuals how to survive in a sport that is much more dangerous as well as less expensive than “Golf”…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Auryn 0]

I knew that a thread along this context was a matter of time coming. And I was actually thinking the Richmond boogie might be what brings the discussion out.. and I was right! (Damn rare thing in my neck of the woods)

I worked for the person in question, and sky-gods in question, for 3 months and I have to say that I have never met a higher quality of people running/sponsoring a DZ. Ever.

The particular Board member, (and if you're going to put his name out, the one thing that's the most important for reputation purposes to anyone that works in skydiving at least learn to spell it right) has given everything he can to the sport. While most DZMs take their salary home at night, he goes to the trailer park and lives there with the rest of us common laborers. He gives up paid jumps CONSTANTLY so that other staff can eek out a living. He does this b/c he knows he has his retirement to live off of and others don't. He is a hard ass, and can be an ass... I don't agree w/ him about a lot of things. But his integrity and commitment to making the sport better are SECOND TO NONE.. so while he's sleeping in his trailer tonight.. think about that.

As far as the coincidence to the richmond boogie, most DZs run something for labor day, and this being a new DZ especially had reason to.. anything to get jumpers out and check things out, then make their own decision about where they want to jump.

This sponsored DZ is also good for fun jumpers. on any given weekday the team trained jumps for fun jumpers were 12 bucks and one week they were 8.

so money is not what these people care about.

As far as the DZO saying he doesn't hire or fire people, that is commong practice in the *normal* business world-the guy with the biggest financial stake doesn't make those decisions. The corporate attitude you complain about provides the A/C that you know is legit, and you'll be on a turbine w/ 4 other people on board b/c of it. Hell, one weekend we were flying it with two people on board-fun jumpers.

LAY OFF dude.

[AFFI 0]

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The particular Board member, (and if you're going to put his name out, the one thing that's the most important for reputation purposes to anyone that works in skydiving at least learn to spell it right) has given everything he can to the sport. While most DZMs take their salary home at night, he goes to the trailer park and lives there with the rest of us common laborers. He gives up paid jumps CONSTANTLY so that other staff can eek out a living. He does this b/c he knows he has his retirement to live off of and others don't. He is a hard ass, and can be an ass... I don't agree w/ him about a lot of things. But his integrity and commitment to making the sport better are SECOND TO NONE.. so while he's sleeping in his trailer tonight.. think about that.

Sounds like someone I would like to work for...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[airathanas 0]

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The boogie was fun of course for the 200 or so of us mostly 40+ hard core, saggy titty, limpy dick old farts that refuse to quit skydiving.

I missed that? Good. I mean, oh darn.

http://3ringnecklace.com/

[AirDive 0]

I think our new conference director should have put in at least 1 day at The Richmond Boogie.

[AFFI 0]

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I think our new conference director should have put in at least 1 day at The Richmond Boogie.

Why?

[ChrisG 0]

I worked for the person in question, and sky-gods in question, for 3 months and I have to say that I have never met a higher quality of people running/sponsoring a DZ. Ever.


The particular Board member, (and if you're going to put his name out, the one thing that's the most important for reputation purposes to anyone that works in skydiving at least learn to spell it right) has given everything he can to the sport. While most DZMs take their salary home at night, he goes to the trailer park and lives there with the rest of us common laborers. He gives up paid jumps CONSTANTLY so that other staff can eek out a living. He does this b/c he knows he has his retirement to live off of and others don't. He is a hard ass, and can be an ass... I don't agree w/ him about a lot of things. But his integrity and commitment to making the sport better are SECOND TO NONE.. so while he's sleeping in his trailer tonight.. think about that.

As far as the coincidence to the richmond boogie, most DZs run something for labor day, and this being a new DZ especially had reason to.. anything to get jumpers out and check things out, then make their own decision about where they want to jump.

This sponsored DZ is also good for fun jumpers. on any given weekday the team trained jumps for fun jumpers were 12 bucks and one week they were 8.

so money is not what these people care about.



LAY OFF dude.

LAY OFF??? Who the fuck are you? What if I dont, you gonna come and beat me up or something? If thats the case, let me know and I'll shut up quickly.I almost shed a tear over the hardships Kip is enduring, but once again, thats not what this is about.
Your naitivity has gloriously helped prove my point.
Lets see, $8 jumps, $12 jumps, 4 on a caravan load, 2 on a load, free food and entertainment, the list goes on.

"so money is not what these people care about."

LMFAO dude. You gotta be kidding!!!

[Skymonkey2 0]

Your right, I should have, I had a course going on. I run course on skydivers schedules, I had two people come out from out of state, because this was the only time they had. We were not competing with the boogie, our jumpers asked us to do something so we did. We did not bring any specialty aircraft. And no one new the dinner was free, and there was barely 15 people here for the christian rock band. Oh yea one of our skydivers is the drummer for the band. The helicopter we had is based here. I have been to the Richmond Boogie twice and loved it, it is a good time and I recommend it to anyone. I have been in this region for four years and have not seen one director come to any of the events that I have been too, I am not talking bad about anyone, I know people are busy. If anyone has any guestions you can email me our call me. I don't like posting on dz.com.

Kip

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[AirDive 0]

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Why?

Because I felt it was something that could have been of value to him and us. Of course if the man had a class to teach I understand but would have thought he had a very experienced staff capable of handling any eventuality that might turn up at his DZ due to his conference director duties.
It's not easy running a DZ and a conference at the same time and as he goes along gaining experience and learning what his conference expects from him he'll improve. I have watched him operate and feel that if there was a problem or even if I needed a favor at one of his DZ's 200 miles away he'd be there. After all, he has been in the past when he wasn't a conference director.

[Skymonkey2 0]

It was a coach and tandem cert course....

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[chuck411 0]

Now coming from an Army Background I personally see nothing wrong with Army type Training....Now b4 you flame me let me explain.

Most Military Training is very structured and follows direct guidance for lessons. Be they how to fire your weapon or how to make your bed. These training standards are not a bad thing. They create uniformity and in that means that if instructor #1 isn’t there then Inst#2 can pick up and know exactly what #1 did and what needs to be done now. All to often I'm sure we have all seen how one Inst teaches and how different the flow can be from another. I have first hand knowledge of this and have commented on it to various I's and jumpers in general. So to say the Military types and their training mentality is wrong then I ask you what is it you feel they are doing in that part of it that’s so wrong? Drilling people over and over? Helping to keep them alive? This is a dangerous Sport and Life we all have chosen. Why not drill "If" you want to achieve more? Why shouldn’t people get paid a fair enough rate to be able to survive on? to be able to afford some fun jumps and maybe dinner out from time to time?

I’m not getting into the politics of this topic as I don’t know Kip all that well other than fun jumping with him a couple times in NC back a few years:)
But I will say this.... If you don’t like the currant system be it the USPA or the Fed Gov. Why not stop Bitching about how all the politicians do the same shit and get off your ass and walk in their shoes? Why aren’t you on the Board?

Its always easier to say This SUCKS and I hate it..... and not do anything towards fixing what someone might think is Broken.


*Edited for Speeeeling*

[stratostar 5]

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nothing wrong with Army type Training

Your right, nothing wrong with it On a military base, this is SPORT SKYDIVING not HALO sneek behind the lines and kill people!

In the 70's we had a influx of GI's returning home from nam, and we saw a lot of "drill sargents" types enter the instructor world and they trained like they were still on a fire base in the jungle, this worked real well on the many GI's who came through the door, but was a huge turn off to all the civilians.

It's still a major turn off today.

People find that type on instruction as a joke and as an insult too. If you want to train like that join the service! If you want to teach sport skydiving, leave your military bullshit on base where it belongs, this is the civilian world.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Beatnik 2]

I think that the main thing with military training is that it is not for all type of people. Look at how many people don't make it through the recruiting process or basic training. Civilians aren't used to the military style teaching.

While most people with a military background like that sort of training they are also used to it, trained to think that way and trained to operate that way. However, civilians don't have the same set of standards or are taught the same way that people in the military are.

Unfortunately, it is hard for ex- or serving military members to disconnect from this type of structured teaching. It is something that has to be and should be done. I am not saying that they are not times when it is useful and perhaps called for, but most people (Civilians) don't respond well to people treating them like they are in the military.

You can have structured lessons and drill the must knows into people's heads without having a military feel to it.

I study psychology and am serving in the military , this is my $0.02 and what I have experienced.

[USPAWatchdog 0]

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Does his ideas include ways to retain all the young jumpers? Like lowering the costs so they can afford it?

A uspa board member that is a dzo? I got my hand raised, you can call on me.

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Train, train, train.

and spend, spend, spend!

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Back to the new DZ. They have spent so much money that to remain profitable, they will need to suck up all available tandems in the area. Something will have to give.

Maybe not. I heard some rich guys owns it and you know how that goes. Make everybody think you are the best by throwing money around.

Don't worry Chris. They will be gone in a couple of years. Those rich guys get bored and more on.

[chuck411 0]

I think your missing my point or maybe I’m just an ill-equipped moron that is unable to explain what he is trying to explain...

I’m not talking about the Screaming and yelling part of Military Training. I’m talking about the structure of the training style. Everything is broken down piece by piece. It is then Lad out in a fairly easy format to then be taught. You drill on points and build upon them as you get a "GO" or "NO GO". Of course on a NO GO you wouldn’t go on to the next point.

I fail to see how that’s bad. I have seen I's pass someone who barely squeaked by on a jump just because they liked them or thought they understood the principle bur were just having trouble with the execution. Do you think that is ok and SAFE? I don’t. I think it's negligent on the I's part.
My point in Military Style Training is the uniformity of the training meaning any instructor can step in and continue the training regardless of who the I was the trained the step b4.

I have seen many Civilians love structured type training and for you to say that ALL of them in those days hated it I would call BS. However since you’re talking about NAM then I guess that some people may have already had an aversion to GI's since they having not severed during that war may very well have been the ones that liked to refer to Our Soldiers as Baby Killers and murderers. If that was the case then Screw them and I don’t care...Ok maybe I shouldn’t say I don’t care since I do care but still. Screw them!!! They are the same types that today Piss and Moan about how “This isn’t Fair”, or “This is shitty”, yet do nothing to try and fix the problem other than Piss and Moan.

I have personally seen way more safety at DZ run by Prior Military folks or even Current Military folks for that mater than at the DZ's run by the 60's and 70's hippies. Now Granted my experience is limited as I have only visited maybe 10 different DZ's in my Short "Civilian" Jump time but none the less it is my observation and my opinion.

[chuck411 0]

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I think that the main thing with military training is that it is not for all type of people. Look at how many people don't make it through the recruiting process or basic training. Civilians aren't used to the military style teaching.

While most people with a military background like that sort of training they are also used to it, trained to think that way and trained to operate that way. However, civilians don't have the same set of standards or are taught the same way that people in the military are.

Unfortunately, it is hard for ex- or serving military members to disconnect from this type of structured teaching. It is something that has to be and should be done. I am not saying that they are not times when it is useful and perhaps called for, but most people (Civilians) don't respond well to people treating them like they are in the military.

You can have structured lessons and drill the must knows into people's heads without having a military feel to it.

I study psychology and am serving in the military , this is my $0.02 and what I have experienced.

I agree with you. I do, whatI was trying to explain I think I explained better in my last post above this one. Im not talking about the Barking and yelling part of it but rather the uniformity of it and the structure.

[pirana 0]

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Sanity check here people: it was scheduled for Labor Day ... every turbine DZ in the country has some kind of Labor Day get together.

I know one that didn't. About half the staff, at least half the fun jumpers (maybe 3/4), and damn near everyone who competes made the 3 or 4 hour trek to Couch. I think it's kind of a tradition that many honor and come together for on that weekend every year.

For some reason the title Couch Freaks Boogie always reminds me of the scene in Forrest Gump where he beats on the hippie guy at their rally in DC. I just keep visioning Forrest Gump after a week at Couch saying:

Sorry to have disrupted your Couch Freaks Party.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Skymonkey2 0]

I am not a dzo, and I have paid out of my pocket $88.00 to get a load up for one of my students one afternoon during the week. Again if you want to talk about it please call me. Or email me...

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[Skymonkey2 0]

If my teaching style is at question, please come and watch me teach, I promise you it is not military. I invite anyone to come and check it out.

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[diverds 0]

I can back Kip up on that statement. I have watched him teach several courses and individual students this year and his style is thorough yet relaxed.

-Dave

Skydive Radio

[PhreeZone 15]

Enough already.

If you want to talk about the Richmond boogie then lets talk about it. Don't use these forums to launch attacks against other DZ's or their staff.

If you want to have a conversation about learning styles then start a seperate thread about it in the correct forum. If you want to have a conversation about what you think a USPA RD or BOD should do then start a thread on that. If you just want to bitch about someone, just don't bother posting that at all.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Scubadivemaster 3]

Back on the subject . . .

Chris, I don't know where you were standing, but I saw enough nakedness to keep a smile on my face for a month!

Good jumps, good friends, pretty ladies, lots-o-beverages. While I agree that its a shitty thing to do to try to compete with what is a real tradition, fuck those who missed it! I drank your beer and slept with your women!

[ChrisG 0]

Yea Steve, I left smiling too. But you stated the problem-there was only enough nudity to keep you smiling for a mere month!
My silly post about limp dicks and nudity, and my slash at Start, has a much deeper meaning.
The first being- Dont screw with the Richmond Boogie! Its already standing on fragile ground. Join us instead! We'd love to have you!
The second point is - Where's the young fun jumpers?
Something is obviously wrong here. Maybe there is pockets of good activity, but without a doubt- The current tandem then "AFF only" system is a failure at retention.
Im wary of someone on the BOD that runs a skydiving training school, whose agenda seems to be to promote more training. Military style or not.
My opinion is- LESS training is what the sport needs, not more.
I'm not an old fart just longing for the good old days, and things have changed, but it is undeniable that:

The old static-line then 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 sec delay type of progression was HUGELY SUCCESSFULL at retaining jumpers.

Its so simple and easy, cheaper too, and with a few modifications, can be modernized. To save the DZ you could require a tandem first.
Maybe we made a mistake going AFF. It seems to lack the 'camaraderie' that the old progression had. AFF students are pretty much on their own, isolated, with sometimes 2 paid instructors. And they often seem to expect to be good enough to jump with the big guys.
Jumpmaster training is also cheaper and easier. You dont even have to be good at RW to be an excellent static-line and delay jumpmaster. Thats been proven again and again.
Also, the jumpmaster pool is already there. The swoopers! Ask one of them if they might like a free swoop jump just for putting out a couple students.

Thats my thoughts, not all my original ideas, I've heard others talking along these lines.

What do you think the solution is? More training or less training?

By the way, I need to add for some of you military out there, I'm an Army Viet Nam vet. Pleiku- 69-70. (drafted)

[stratostar 5]

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The first being- Dont screw with the Richmond Boogie!

We all know who and why anyone has tried to screw the boogie. At least their getting old too and will croak sooner or later, problem solved.

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Its already standing on fragile ground.

I would have to disagree to a point. I don't think fragile ground is correct, I think it reflects the industry as a whole, we have seen the numbers decline over the last 5 years, same as the national numbers, maybe a tad more with the regional political actions of a few operators that, as you know Chris started competing events once the "arrangements" soured and battle lines were clearly drawn and peoples loyalties were called in to question, if you attended.

You of all people have been here to see it first hand with your time in the sport in the region.

As I have traveled a lot the last few years, many other parts of the country seem to be doing fine with new student flow and jumper retention. There are a lot of economic reasons why that is. The same can be said for place like this region, to explain the down turn in numbers.

I'm sure there many factors as to why we did see the WFFC not run this year, but I have heard their numbers were down too the last 5 years.

While I think your correct that new jumper retention is down as is the number of fun jumpers too. There are many factors there too, like people getting sick of DZO's treating people who spend money at their dz like shit. Or giving a staff member or regular fun jumper a ton of shit for going to jump with friends at another regional dz, this has been going on many years as you know. A lot of the older crews are, well, older now and life get's in the way or jobs, kids, all the regular shit, so a trip to the dz now, they find there is not anyone left they knew other then the DZO and a couple staff members. While the old fav's Bob Sinclaire, Orly, Boxman, Tony H., Tony U, Roger H., Brew, Alf-a-bit, AJ, and many longstanding camp grounds were present, there were some longtime friends who didn't show, I think this is the first boogie since 1972 that naked Larry didn't show up at, and he said he was coming this year, there were a few others as well. (floats 18 you pussy)

Thats the funny thing about when someone passes, and all the old faces you see at the service. But those people are done and have made their jumps and aren't comming back, many more of us are joining them, then are replacing us.

Why is that? Good question.

Our student numbers have remained the same and are on the rise for returns in S/L & AFF & TDM. even with the current changes taking place. I would say the numbers have stayed about the same for those who really stay in the sport, but the "flash in the pan" jumpers numbers are now higher. The ones who hit it hard for a few years (2 or 3), then done or dead. And it takes a huge volume of students to get a couple of skydivers these days. We see less still active ten years later.

It was nice to Bob and the Greensburg crew drop in and make a few loads again this year. I can understand why you and other posters would feel it would be under-handed of me to set up shop 30 miles down the road from Couch Freaks and holding a compeating event, but it is America, land of the free and stand up guys like you Chris slopped around in some rice patty getting shot at so I can have the right to do just that, if I want to.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[bozo 0]

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The first being- Dont screw with the Richmond Boogie!

We all know who and why anyone has tried to screw the boogie. At least their getting old too and will croak sooner or later, problem solved.

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Its already standing on fragile ground.

I think its Stratostars fault,

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.