Skymonkey2

It is you or the AFFI, it is sad to see they have to post with no name.... If it was not you I am sorry. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

Skymonkey2, you are a part of this problem as well. I’ve noticed that you have chosen to pick on an Indiana dropzone three or four times in this thread. Let’s talk about that. *This dz was one that I have on several occasions have worked at for more then 4 years doing courses. *At the coach course, everyone in the course wanted to make a difference, and they were tired of what was happening their at the dz, no formal student program, coaches jumping with S/L students, ect...... putting S/L students out after legal sunset. *And I talked to Chris the AFF/S/L/Coach student what ever he was, he was not cleared for self supervision at the time of the jump, he had not shown stability, heading maintenance nor hover control, he had not shown that he could get unstable or regain stability on his own so he is still a student in the S/L or AFF program, what ever the dz was using at that time with him, it changed every day. You, your self asked me on several times to help you with him so I gave you info over the phone, you voiced your concerns for his skydiving education. You were frustrated. After you watched me demonstrate a ground prep to the candidates you asked me on several occasions to work with Chris, you felt the AFF I did not know his job and he was doing a disservice to the students, (quote). *You told me that I had high standards in the course and I taught more then the previous courses you have seen, so now that I use your dz and you as an example or is it because I used you as an example. You bring up double standards. You so wanted to spend time in FL learning more about being an AFF I, and I told you not with me. OK... *(HE WAS NOT A COACHING STUDENT and IF HE WAS HE IS STILL A STUDENT! YOU AND YOUR PARTNER SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE AN AFF JUMP WITH HIM, AND IT WAS SAD TO SEE AN AFF I AND A SOON TO BE AFF I ALLOW A STUDENT TO DEPLOY IN A BACK SLIDING TURN.) * I also witnessed the debrief the candidates and the coach candidates did a better job of debriefing, and there was not retraining, you and I talked about it. It is funny you talk about double standards, you evaluate one way and then go out and do just the opposite. * I did have a problem with it, I spoke with the AFF I and you the next day. * I did use the AFF I for one maybe two jumps, and used you for more. You have been an evaluator at other courses and so has the AFF I. You said that you watched a S/L I harness hold exit an AFF student right? I know of the incident that you speak of and the student was actually on his low 20s in jumps and that SLI and AFFI were trying to work out a few problems he was having. (I’m not going to agree or disagree with this practice.) In fact, you helped debrief that student after the jump and had no problem with it at that time. The very next day you used the same AFFI and SLI as evaluators for your coach course candidates. So are you saying that you will let instructors that you have these serious problems with evaluate your course candidates? While teaching that coach course you informed the candidates that a current instructor at their dropzone had pulled below the hard deck on a coach course eval jump in the years past and you still passed that candidate. Could it be that the candidate is a friend of yours? Maybe a little favoritism there? *That is not true, but good try.. When this dropzone decided to create an AFF program (it had never been done there before) you were contacted first as their IE of choice to work with the AFFI candidates. You had no problem at all with this at the time. In fact, the only time that you developed a problem with it is when you informed that DZ that your schedule would not permit you to be there when it was convenient for the group. So they went with another IE and then all the sudden you develop a problem with it? Every dropzone has to start somewhere, like this fact or not it’s irrelevant. I just want to know why you were ok with it when they asked you and then had to go with another IE because you wouldn’t be able to make it, your problem begins? *The problem came when I saw the jump, you and I had many conversations and you were in total agreement with me, and you talked so much smack about the AFF I that you jumped with. *I could not be there for the dates you guys requested. No problem with that. But when you need someone to work with you or one of your students who did you call, not the other I/E but me. Those that know you know that you have a certain IE out there that you love to bash. In fact you complain about this IE almost every course you put on. Care to tell us all who you got your ratings from? So everyone else that got a rating from this guy did not earn it but you did? *Rick Horne was my Course Director. *I remember talking to you during your course, almost every night, you had nothing good to say about your I/E and his teachings, you gave more compliments to the evaluator. You stated, why am I paying someone to read to me? I could have done that myself. *Please let me remind you, after the coach course and several conversation, you wanted to attend my AFF course, so you canceled with the other, and registered to mine, then you said you were pressured into doing the course at your dz, and so I returned your deposit. And I supported you, talked to you every night. I am so confused. You are a very skilled skydiver. You are an amazing instructor. So the truth may hurt but you also suffer from a case of double standards. All this being said, I couldn’t agree with DSE anymore. Where is the data to support the claim that there is a problem? We can all sit around and tell stories, but what are the stats? Are we trying to create a solution to a problem that does not exist? Is there and issue with IE’s…. yes, all of them, they are human. I am lead to believe that the process works. If you wish to prove me wrong, then show me the stats and quit telling stories. Thanks DSE for bringing the stats question up! AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

There is one that is reading it, but that is the only one, and he has called me twice. But has no answers to the problem, someone should bring this thread to the B of D. If more are reading it we would here from them AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

It's obvious to me that one major part of the problem is the sheer number of AFFIs out here. Is that because it's "easy" to get the rating? Is it because there are more and more AFF I/Es out here competing for business? *BINGO, this is the major problem, and also some of them barely stay current.* I think the sheer volume of AFFI I/Es and AFFIs induces a lower and lower level of integrity in the system. *BINGO Again, I like your dream world, it is reality.* Why would an I/E allow an unqualified person to even take the course? Because his level of personal integrity is shot all to hell. *Money is more important than integrity and putting yourself on a pedistle is just as important.* Why would he"invent" a rating for someone that doesn't quite meet the requirements? Because his level of personal integrity is shot all to hell *Bingo again, I want to be in the history books as the one.* The system has allowed a lot of "chaff" online. *Imagine that, and nothing will be done.* Oh, if there was a way to rid ourselves of the chaff and get back to quality E/Is and AFFIs that have a decent level of integrity. *There is, but the BOD will not worry about it, there is to much money to be made, for individuals and USPA.* You are all over it, I like the way you think. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

Sitting around and observing is different from taking the course and being evaluated a told you are an AFF I. There is nothing wrong with taking pre-courses prior to meeting the requirements to being an AFF I or any other type of instructor. It is call an AFF I Certification course, it is called a S/L Instructor Certification course, it is called an IAD Instructor Certification course, it is a Tandem Instructor Certification course, not a come to the a course and who cares what your experience is, and if you pass I will put a waiver in for you. What are we showing people? What are we showing the rest of the world? Come on get real. ~~Probably the same way a lot of dropzones do. I wasn't allowed to jump with students the day I got back from my AFF course (and snow on the ground played a role in that, too). Then I only was allowed to jump reserve side for a spell. Do you think that a person with 6 hours of freefall time suddenly loses their skills when they can't jump with students for 30 days? Cuz if they were teaching FJC's, and I'm told they were, then they were still working their skills, just not with students in the air. USPA should set the standard. A lot of dzs require their new AFF I's to work reserve side and have x-amount of aff jumps before doing release or one on one jumps, but there is the same amount that don't require it, and let new AFF I's jump with other new I's even on release dive within the first week they have received their ratings. Don't think what happens at your dz is the national standard, because it is not. NOT EVEN CLOSE. 182 dz in IN all the AFF I's are new (ALL OF THEM) and they are doing release dives one on one dives. ~~They already have, haven't they? No chit, an I/E handed someone their instructional rating a few weeks after a fatality. Can you comprehend that? Yes and an I/E gave someone back their rating that killed someone. It does not make it right or justify what is going on. Double standards, good old boy network. Can you believe it, one I/E gave someone a "conditional AFF rating.." Apparently, there is no such rating. I agree, parts of the system are broken. I agree again, it is a shame. Hopefully standards will be reiterated and somehow enforced, as this thread (and some of your comments) make it appear as though I/E's have relaxed the supposedly stringent requirements. Yea I believe it, when I was a evaluator I had an I/E try for one hour to get me to change my score, allowing me to look at the video and telling me that it is a rating to learn, he will be ok, he will figure it out. now that candidate is a I/E not even 3 or 4 years later. I did not change my score and he re-took the course the next year and I failed him on a skydive and the same I /E jumped with him and the rest is history. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

There is a dz in IN that the AFF I there allows S/L I's to do harness hold AFF Jumps with him so they can get ready for their AFF Courses. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

This whole thread is about standard, experience, and are courses to easy, so on that note: 1. How can someone allow a candidate or candidates to attend a course without meeting the requirements. 2. How can the BOD directors let some go for ex-amount months without working with students and then say you can go out work with students, without any recurrency training? And by the way I have seen several videos of the so called AFF I's and I am not impressed at all. No chit this week here in FL a Tandem Examiner put someone through the USPA and Manufacture course and the individual did not have a coach rating, he did not have his Tandem card filled out. This whole weekend the candidate was working on his pre-reqs for his coach card and his tandem card. The system is broke and it is a shame. People are going to get hurt. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

Sorry this took so long been working. He is how it went: A dzo call the examiner that works on the dzo's demo team and scheduled an AFF Course and told him that his son and his friend will be attending the course and that both of them do not have the required hours but have a lot of tunnel time, and they will have the coach course done the weekend prior to the AFF course. ( I know this because several AFF I's from the dz called and or emailed me several times, and they also sent emails to one other Board Member) The examiner told the dzo that he will conduct the course and after the course he will submit a waiver to the BOD because of their wind tunnel time. At the Board meeting the email from the concerned AFF I's was read to the BOD and the waiver was not approved. The BOD said that when the two individuals have their time they can then work with students. To me if you don't have the requirements to be an Instructor you should not be allowed to do the course and the evaluations. So I guess the good old boy network is hard at work still......... AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

You bring up another great point, BACK IN THE DAY, ( I hate that) you had to be a JM for a year before you were allowed to attended a ICC (Instructor Certification Course), so you had to get some experience, but now you can go from coach in weekend to an Instructor that next Monday. This another thing I hear in the field, USPA needs to require some experience before moving on, I don't know the magic number but at least 6 months with x amount of training jumps with students to include x amount of FJC training. You guys are hitting the nail on the head, keep it up......... Example: this summer two skydivers with less then 300 jumps, and only about two years in the sport when to a 2 day coach course and then the following Monday started a AFF I course (both did not meet the minimum requirements to be an AFF I.) by Thursday they had graduated the course. they did not even have there pre-reqs done for the AFF Course, the I/E signed them off. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

I just don't agree. I don't think that a DZ has the best interests of the student in mind and even if they did, when the coach/AFF rated person goes to another DZ that whole system breaks down. I think that the USPA *should* be acting in this capacity and coming up with a method that will help weed out the people who really shouldn't be teaching. ___________________________________________________________ I totally agree with this, but USPA as a non-profit organization has allowed to become about the money, as the dz don't have the best interest in the students nor does USPA, allowing the rating programs to be water downed to a point were the students safety and the instructors safety are at risk. In the short 16 years I have been doing this I have not seen so many people become AFF I's, at such a low experience level. Again I will refer back to 2 weeks ago, 380 jumps over at least 4 years, failed the AFF Course in December of last year and then again in Nov, the day she failed she drove 3 hours to another Examiner and in a day and a half became an AFF I. It is all about the money, those that have a high grad rate get the customers. All I hear when talking to friends around the country is what is going on? How can so and so be an AFF I. What is USPA doing? Here on this forum you all have made some really points about the coach program, on of the BOD watches this thread, and makes comments, but still nothing is being done at the meetings, the BOD even sent me a message and said this is why I am not on the S&TA Committee anymore, so my question is why quit keep fighting, I hope for the sake of safety and education that your points make it to the BOD's and you guys make a difference. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

You are correct, you can't learn everything in an AFF course. But you need to demonstrate the skills to help someone in freefall. The IRM is very explicit about the standards, and at the last AFF standardization meeting it was brought up by several people that the eval jumps are not to test your skill with a normal student but one you may see that is not in control. A good thing that is happening is some examiners are trying to train future AFF I in the courses. There are certain skills that need to be possessed by New AFF I's. We as examiners need to be worried about the training and evals and not just the money side. We need to train and evaluate. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

You know I don't think so, I also don't have the mind set as one of competitors it is a rating to learn, if someone can't show you the skills then they should be doing the job. It is funny nobody talks about in the open, but between each other no problem. I don't know what your insinuating, but I will fail my mother, I just won't say I will, I spent a whole summer debrifing my AFF partner like a student, he caused more problems then the students. Did u know that the thumbs up signal is not in the SIM! And it is not be evaluated as a signal in AFF course as per our BOD in the last standardization meeting! AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

They must have at least a coach rating. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

Yes I have, in fact, my last coach course I failed 1 for teaching and knowledge of the subjects, In the class before that two candidates did not passed for flying skills. And the two that failed understood. I am a fan of the program, I believe that the requirements need to be changed. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well

You have turned out quit the politition, your mentor did well. There are a lot of examiners out there that give really good pre-course, an AFF I is not always the one that should get you ready for your course, yes there are some that can. By April we will have about 30 AFF I/E's in the US, what is to become of the standards, we are already seeing AFF students having AAD's firing, AFF I's having AAD's firing one AFF student died, I just got an email from a DZ in the N.E. area were two students got away and one was almost fatal. What is next. I remember when the E/I rating was hard, before the new I/E there were only about 70 I/E's, we have made it a joke. As an I/E you were supposed to be the expert in the sport of skydiving, AFF I/E are bragging about having a 90% sucsesses rate, I don't know how that is so. wait I know, it is about the money, not the standards that we once held, we are becoming a joke in the skydiving communittee, I have talked to several instructors from around the world. For the coaches, if you think about it a coach has more complexed skills to teach, and now we are asking someone with 100 jumps who really has not figured out how to skydive to teach someone. I still don't get it. I received a message on dz.com about the coach issues, and his regional director and a national director in his are came up with more reasons why not to the how to fix the problem. Little help here, is what he asks for, me too. AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well