TSA Incident Report - ORD 10.10.2006

[gravitational 0]

Email sent to Ed Scott last night (cc: Central and Mountain Region Directors) and had a prompt response from Ed this morning (Thank you USPA). Will post any further results.

Ed –

Just emailing to report a TSA training issue that resulted in my reserve having to be opened today. First, the easy items:

Airport: O’Hare (ORD)
Terminal 3
Checkpoint 7A
Supervisor: Thompson
Manager: Romano
Customer Support: (773) 894-8779
Date: October 10, 2006
Time: Approximately 15:50
Airline: American Airlines (although they were never involved)
Flight: 1235 (ORD-DEN)
Another name written on the sheet they gave me was Paul Simmons although I’m not sure who this is.
(not that it matters, but I was flying first class and I’m top tier with American and have traveled thru ORD several times this year with my rig and this is the first time the TSA has batted an eye)

My rig was packed solo with a couple pull up cords in the bag. I advised the screener prior to putting my rig on the belt that he was about to look at a parachute as I’ve found that this has created much less hassle for me than not telling the TSA officers first. My rig was stopped and a supervisor was called over and advised that the rig would not pass based on what he saw. Later prodding determined that it was my Cypres they were interested in. I eventually provided the Cypres card when they finally let my laptop bag go and this only created more ‘concern’ in their minds of an explosive device. After several supervisors looked at the x-ray and several having discussions with me on the operations of the parachute system, they (TSA) decided that if I wanted to take my rig with me today either as carry on (preferred) or checked I would be opening my reserve parachute so they could inspect the Cypres. After several minutes of calmly explaining to them that the reserve was packed by an FAA rated parachute rigger, etc. etc. etc., the supervisor advised me that he had a roommate ‘way back when’ that jumped and he was convinced that the Cypres contained an explosive device because that’s what his roommate told him.

Based on the idiocy of the supervisors statement and my obvious reluctance to ‘toss my gear’, I opened the reserve and was immediately told to stand away from the rig. I advised the TSA supervisor that he was not allowed to touch the gear until I could carefully pull the reserve out so he could gain access the Cypres control unit. The supervisor reluctantly agreed and I carefully pulled the reserve out enough so that he could swab the unit. Several other (about 20) supervisors came over and were asking questions and I again explained how the system worked and the desire to have an AAD in the event of a loss of awareness situation.

I remained calm but stern in my desire to not have the reserve opened and extremely stern that they not touch anything in the reserve tray without first asking as this would obviously be my last chance.

The swab returned negative and I was sent on my way – now having to pay the expense of a repack due to what seemed to be grossly inadequate training. The supervisor did acknowledge that the Cypres card did provide all of the appropriate information that he needed, but the x-ray picture on the back (my card is 1999 vintage) was ‘crap’.

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Michael

[yardhippie 0]

that sucks.

TSA = 'talking and Standing Around'


I wish/hope that there could be some type of recourse for you considering you had all your items in order and the supervisor decided on a course of action based on what 'a roomate' told him, not what protocol dictates.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[Dionysus 0]

It sounds like the supervisor was being fairly belligerent in this case and going by his personal beliefs and not the regulations.

By chance did you have a copy of the TSA regulation regarding parachutes with you to give to him? For those not familiar with it you can go to the TSA website and print out a copy of the one page document that states parachutes with an automatic opener are allowed as carry on. This has saved me from opening my reserve a couple times when going through security. The document also tells the TSA where in their manuals they can find the policy so they can verify that your not just giving them something you made up the night before.

Anyway I hope the rest of the trip went well for you.

[stevebabin 0]

I don't have a problem with the TSA asking me to open my rig. I don't think that they should be prevented from thouroghly inspecting anything that is loaded on the plane. If it is known that a parachute gets to pass without inspection, then those that would do us harm could use this against us.
That's not to say that I'd be happy to pay for another repack, but I see it as an added cost of flying with my rig in a time of war. If I wasn't OK with this, I'd ship my rig seperately before I travel.
Of course, your mileage may vary.........

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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It sounds like the supervisor was being fairly belligerent in this case and going by his personal beliefs and not the regulations.

Hmmm... not sure if there's really enough info here to make the "belligerent" call or not... look at it this way though... bang on the TSA gate agents all you want, I do to, but they've got a pretty serious responsibility on their hands. Think about it... if another airliner goes is hijacked by terrorists, crashed or blown up, bet your ass you'll see the security footage of the purpatrators going through security and getting waived on by the TSA agents... if I were a TSA agent, I wouldn't want to see myself on the 11 o'clock news like that.

Quote

By chance did you have a copy of the TSA regulation regarding parachutes with you to give to him? For those not familiar with it you can go to the TSA website and print out a copy of the one page document that states parachutes with an automatic opener are allowed as carry on. This has saved me from opening my reserve a couple times when going through security. The document also tells the TSA where in their manuals they can find the policy so they can verify that your not just giving them something you made up the night before.

Good Info.

[gravitational 0]

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By chance did you have a copy of the TSA regulation regarding parachutes with you to give to him?

This is unfortunately the first time I would have needed it and also the first time I haven't had a copy with me. I don't think it would have saved me though as the apparent decision came from someone higher than the supervisor. No one seemed to have ever seen a parachute go thru ORD from what they had said.

------
Michael

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Gravitational,

Question... At any point did they give you the option or did you ask or consider not taking your rig as a carry-on and leaveing the security check point?

Yes, I know that would have been a hasstle... missing your flight... etc. etc.

I'm just currious to know if that was ever an option or if you had asked to leave because you didn't want to open your reserve they indicated that would have been probable cause to detain you?

I guess what I'm trying to say / ask with respect to this topic, is if the TSA gate agents in question for what ever reason, get to a point where they're not going to let you through security without opening your reserve, at what point can you say, "I'm not going to submit to that, I'd like to have my property back and leave" without being detained or having them pull your reserve without your permission? I'm not sure if there's anyone here that can answer that, but I'm sure it will spark some good discussion. Maybe though we should run it up through the USPA.

[gravitational 0]

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Hmmm... not sure if there's really enough info here to make the "belligerent" call or not...

It was borderline. I gave the respect and treatment back that I was equally given.

As for the TSA being in a 'tight spot' on being responsible for things, I have not had my ID or ticket checked a total of 32 times now this year. Granted, the people that check the ID and tickets are not TSA staff but there is generally a TSA foot soldier nearby watching the process. TSA policy also directs that the metal detector screener is also supposed to double check tickets and this is rarely done with exception to smaller airports from my experience.

------
Michael

[gravitational 0]

Quote

Gravitational,

Question... At any point did they give you the option or did you ask or consider not taking your rig as a carry-on and leaveing the security check point?

I was told that checked or carry on the rig would not fly until the reserve was opened. I also took this as an option that I could also leave with my property and not fly.

One thing that I did not do was demand an airline representative - I've got a high enough status with them that they could possibly have been a help. I did call American after this last night as I was unable to locate their policy online. I will be following up today and running it up the flagpole with AA as well to get the written policy as well as suggesting that they put it back online.

------
Michael

[gravitational 0]

btw...just got an email from SSK and they are sending the latest Cypres card out to me.

------
Michael

[voodew1 0]

Has Cypres changed their xray card??????

I use a Vigil card which has a much better xray picture.

We were held up in Salt Lake City recently and was amazed at the questions we got. They were not stupid questions -- they were questions as to what to look for when they see more rigs come thru to make it easier to fly with a rig.

The kicker was there were 3 of us in a row with rigs and only 1 of us got pulled aside

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[kkeenan 13]

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...you can go to the TSA website and print out a copy of the one page document that states parachutes with an automatic opener are allowed as carry on.

This is the best advice. If you print that info and attach it to the inside of the bag where you are carrying the rig, then they (TSA) can be directed to their own guidelines, rather than listening to you, the suspected terrorist skydiver.

I served a stint as an instructor for the TSA screening protocols, and I can tell you that some of the screeners are smart and conscientious, and some are just dumber than a box of rocks.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[yardhippie 0]

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Hmmm... not sure if there's really enough info here to make the "belligerent" call or not...

It was borderline. I gave the respect and treatment back that I was equally given.

As for the TSA being in a 'tight spot' on being responsible for things, I have not had my ID or ticket checked a total of 32 times now this year. Granted, the people that check the ID and tickets are not TSA staff but there is generally a TSA foot soldier nearby watching the process. TSA policy also directs that the metal detector screener is also supposed to double check tickets and this is rarely done with exception to smaller airports from my experience.

Agreed. I dont travel as much as you, but I'll make Gold level on Delta this year. (50,000 miles in 12 months). In fact when I use the express line (for elite, first class, and special assistance) they never look at my ticket, somtimes the id.

the TSA may be responsible for preventing some future attack, but I dont know anyone that travels extensivly that belives the TSA agents could find their ass with a road map. I dont want to deteriorate gravatiaitional's thread, but the TSA has taken a job that requires attention to detail, critical thinking skills, and an unending focus, then created a pay scale for a high-school graduate.
Who would you rather look out for your safety, a person came from a McDonalds, or someone who's educated and focused?

Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[gravitational 0]

Quote

If you print that info and attach it to the inside of the bag where you are carrying the rig, then they (TSA) can be directed to their own guidelines, rather than listening to you, the suspected terrorist skydiver.

In this particular case it seems (in my opinion) that this would not helped at all. The supervisor had already made up his mind based on the 'old' education he had already rec'd from his old roommate (see original post with email to Ed Scott).

------
Michael

[gravitational 0]

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the TSA may be responsible for preventing some future attack, but I dont know anyone that travels extensivly that belives the TSA agents could find their ass with a road map.

I see to many things that scare me that the TSA lets go on a regular basis.

Not this this is my badge of honor but:
158 Flight Segments and 113k miles so far this year. Next flight is tomorrow morning without my rig.

------
Michael

[mattjw916 2]

I'm right behind you on miles...

TSA=Takes Shampoo Away

Those people are all idiots. I usually have a copy of the TSA letter regarding AADs with me for this reason. Jumping out of a plane with "explosives" in my rig doesn't seem at all logical.

They once reran one of my bags that had nothing but clothes in it because they were "concerned".

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Buried 0]

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Has Cypres changed their xray card??????

I use a Vigil card which has a much better xray picture.

We were held up in Salt Lake City recently and was amazed at the questions we got. They were not stupid questions -- they were questions as to what to look for when they see more rigs come thru to make it easier to fly with a rig.

The kicker was there were 3 of us in a row with rigs and only 1 of us got pulled aside

you guys probably saved me some trouble flying out of SLC with a skydiving rig (No AAD) and a BASE rig.. they did ask if it was a parachute tho. flying through ORD was a breeze the week before with both.

ORD is much better than MDW to travel throug with a rig. Recently the TSA at MDW asked someone to unpack a BASE rig to they can check it

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[yardhippie 0]

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I'm right behind you on miles...

TSA=Takes Shampoo Away

Those people are all idiots. I usually have a copy of the TSA letter regarding AADs with me for this reason. Jumping out of a plane with "explosives" in my rig doesn't seem at all logical.

They once reran one of my bags that had nothing but clothes in it because they were "concerned".

"concerned" ? LOL!

they never look twice at my laptop bag and thats got more shit in it than electrician toolbox!

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[Dionysus 0]

Hmmm... not sure if there's really enough info here to make the "belligerent" call or not... look at it this way though... bang on the TSA gate agents all you want, I do to, but they've got a pretty serious responsibility on their hands. Think about it... if another airliner goes is hijacked by terrorists, crashed or blown up, bet your ass you'll see the security footage of the purpatrators going through security and getting waived on by the TSA agents... if I were a TSA agent, I wouldn't want to see myself on the 11 o'clock news like that.


I would agree with this. I also think the TSA has a more difficult job than many travelers give them credit for.

My use of the word belligerent may have been too strong as I did not witness these events.

[hexadecimal 0]

The TSA and their crew of ex-McDonalds employees at O'Hare can lick my unwiped ass.

[FrenchyDiver 0]

From the TSA letter with regards to rigs permitted as carry on luggage.

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However, TSA screeners have a duty to thoroughly inspect any item that raises suspicion. then the owner of the rig must be present and will be allowed to assist.

The way I read this letter, is that they can open a reserve if they want to. Nowhere it does says that reserves cannot be opened. But I agree, this is not fun.

Also, as others have already mentionned, I'd rather go through this inconvenience rather than having rigs banned from air travel because a terrorist sees an opportunity to use a rig to put explosives on a plane . IMO it's a small price to pay. TSA has a job to do, too.

For those that have not seen or saved a copy of the TSA letter, here's a copy attached.

Sorry you had to open your reserve, but they are entitled to.

Blues.

(edited for spelling )

Hispas Brothers President
HISPA #2,

[MB38 0]

Has Airtec released a higher-resolution x-ray image of a rig with a Cypres? The tiny little compressed image has always bothered me and I can see how it would bother a TSA agent.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[mattjw916 2]

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IMO it's a small price to pay. TSA has a job to do, too.

At what point does the erosion of your civil liberties and personal freedom in the name of "safety" become too high a price?

That's a dangerous attitude to have.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that they rescinded the liquids ban for airside shops but you can't bring your own in from outside security? That decision was purely financial. There is no "special" screening of water/toiletries vs what was already in place pre-liquids ban, i.e. run it through x-ray. You think they are spot-checking Evian and lotion for sale inside the terminal?

There is no reason to open a reserve. Doing an ETD of the inside of the main pack tray and the exterior of the rig should be sufficient. Either that or carry it through the stupid "puffer" machine. An AAD is readily identifiable on the x-ray machines. The TSA inspector was misinformed and didn't know the rules. I've even had a TSA agent tell me I "had" to have my "jumper card" with me when I carry my rig. There is no such rule.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[billvon 2,400]

>The TSA inspector was misinformed and didn't know the rules.

Nope. Per the TSA's policies (arrived at after consultation with USPA) they can require that the reserve be opened and inspected. It's on the letter they sent out on parachuting gear. They will still allow carriage if their rules are followed - and in this case the jumper did follow their rules and was allowed to carry it (albeit opened.)

Might suck to have to open your reserve, but they do say, on paper, that they will sometimes require it. Decide whether or not you want to risk that before you decide to carry your rig onboard (as opposed to checking or shipping it.)

As to whether such inspection measures are excessive - perhaps. But that's a speaker's corner discussion, not a general skydiving one.

[Reginald 0]

I hate to tell you this but the TSA was within their rights. They have the right to open the rig, you have the right to be present. End of story. It sucks and I feel for you but that is the way it is.

I’ve traveled dozens of times with rigs and only once had to open the container in the back room. The officer only made me take the main out and was thinking about the reserve but I talked him out of it. He had the right to ask me to open it too. I’ve had other times they swabbed it. Most of the time they pull a couple of other TSA agents over and show them what a parachute looks like under X-ray an let me go.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the TSA did nothing wrong from what I can tell.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP