Reserve 1st?

[pchapman 262]

When I was new to jumping, there was one accident that continues to stick in my mind as a stark warning about why one should have a plan in mind.

I can't remember the precise details (and I think someone else knew more about it on dz.com once) but this was basically the situation:

As the Cessna climbs out, at say 1000' to 1500', the engine quits. "Bail out!"

Jumper #1 bails and from habit goes to his main. Jumper #2 sees this and calls out a warning, "We're low, use your reserve!" He exits and goes to his reserve. #1 is OK but pretty low, #2 is OK but with more altitude margin.

#3 bails out. Maybe he wanted to go for his main but heard #2's warning, so brings his hand to his chest and pulls. Nothing happens. So he goes back to his main deployment handle and pulls. Still no parachute.

Too bad, his chest pull was with his right hand (the hand we almost always use to open a parachute) so he pulled the cutaway handle by mistake. When he activated his main, it flew away. Maybe he did then get to the reserve handle, but he impacted without anything useful out.

#4 is the last to bail out, he's getting low, but he goes straight to his reserve and lives.

The pilot, checking things in the cockpit, finds the fuel selector on the cockpit floor had gotten bumped to an off position, switches to the tanks, gets the engine started and flies back to the airfield normally. As if nothing had happened.

Three jumpers and the pilot live, one guy couldn't grasp the situation in time and was dead.

He didn't die because he was unlucky and was last out of a plane that broke apart, or spun in, or something else dramatic and deadly. He died for nothing at all.

He just wasn't ahead of the game that one time that Fate decided to give him and his friends a little pass or fail test.

[bodypilot1 0]

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At 25 jumps you should already know this. If not, I suggest not boarding an aircraft intil you do. Your life depends on it.

If this forum wasn't here to discuss questions that they either didn't teach you at the dz or you're not at the dz to ask them, what exactly is the point of this forum?

With your experience i think you should know that not every dz is different and not every instructor has the same knowledge. I've been taught stuff at different Dz's that directly contradicts each other.

Thanks to everyone else for the advice.

Your right about Instructors teaching differently. Instructors not supplying students with every bit of information to save their lives, with the gear they are jumping and before they board the airplane, is a utter disgrace. Never rely on a forum to save your life. Finding out every bit of information on the gear that is saving your life. It will be a benefit to your safety.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Martini 0]

If for example you were at only 1000ft and the plane was in trouble. And you had to get out. Would you and could you go straight for your reserve?

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Are you kidding me? You know what a reserve repack costs these days?

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

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[airdvr 200]

I think getting out at 2 grand should be a pre-requisite for getting a license. I laugh when I hear people saying "my canopy takes 1500 ft to open", so I'll use my reserve at a grand. Do more hop-n-pops and see just how much altitude it takes your canopy to open right off the step. I'll bet it's nowhere near what it is at terminal.

I always thought the only reason you'd use your reserve vs. your main at that altitude was reliability.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[damion75 0]

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I was told below 1000, we land with the aircraft; at or above 1000 but below 2500, exit and deploy the reserve; at or above 2500, exit and deploy the main.

Presumably this means that demo/PRO jumpers exiting at a planned 1500 feet should be using their reserves every time?

Really, 1500ft and above you should be pretty happy on a main. If it is taking that long to open (people quoting 1500ft??!!) then get it fixed. Its not clever.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[mr2mk1g 10]

People always seem to forget that deployment is not going to take anywhere near as long (in ft) on a hop+pop as it does at terminal.

Even the sniveliest canopy will open in a comparatively short vertical distance when deployed right out the door - you've got more horizontal component to your travel than vertical at that point anyway.

[rushmc 18]

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People always seem to forget that deployment is not going to take anywhere near as long (in ft) on a hop+pop as it does at terminal.

Even the sniveliest canopy will open in a comparatively short vertical distance when deployed right out the door - you've got more horizontal component to your travel than vertical at that point anyway.

Sorry to disagree but I know what mine takes to open. It used to take that long at terminal until I started packing it as per factory instructions.

I did several 6000 feet hop n pops and I wondered if the dam thing was ever going to open.

I have learned though, if a hop n pop is planed I can speed things up with some changes .

Anyway, nothing is absolute. All gear is slightly different even if the same gear is used by different people.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ROK 0]

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Is there a problem with doing this whilst your main is still tucked away?

Is part of your question whether it's ok to deploy your reserve without your main being cut away?

[Baksteen 84]

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0 to 499 - stay with the plane
500 to 999 - jump and dump reserve
1000 + jump and dump main

but that's me

Below 2K - reserve
Above - main.
Below 1K - ride the plane down.

Then an instructor asked me: "The plane is at 750 ft and on fire. Do you get out?"

@Airdvr: Hop&pops from 3500 are mandatory for the A-licence (at least over here).
What does the 2K H&P (decision alti for students) add to this, except "unneccesary" reserves from brief slider hangups, slight line twists and the likes?
(meaning that the student is out of "fighting altitude" and MUST initiate EPs, as taught).
Unless you're talking about a C-licence or whatever, in which case I have no opinion.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Reginald 0]

Okay, there are a lot of interesting opinions on here.

Here is what we teach students:

A. Less than 1,000 stay with the plane unless otherwise instructed by the PIC then if exiting use reserve.

B. 1,000 to decision altitude or “hard deck” exit and use reserve. Note for students this is
2,500. For experienced skydivers this number may be as low as 1,800 feet.

C. Greater than hard deck use main.

It’s not a perfect system, but it is a system and gives the vast majority of skydivers, particularly low timers and fun jumpers, the best chances. Highly current, experienced and knowledgeable jumpers may make different choices based on their equipment, skills and knowledge.

There are some basic concepts this is built on.

First is that students are taught that they should have a landable main by their hard deck or to execute their EP’s. If they are exiting a plane below that altitude they should use the more reliable reserve. Note that student’s reaction times are poor all around hence the higher hard deck the USPA recommends for students.

Second, reserves do open faster than mains. I personally know exactly how long it takes my main to open at terminal (roughly 800 feet) and during the forward throw of a hop n pop (usually 300 to 500 feet). I also know the variation I’ve experienced in both and the sometimes funky sub terminal openings I get. I’ve had one reserve ride and it was the quickest cleanest opening I’ve ever had.

Third, given that most rigs have AAD’s this has to be built into the decision-making. A CYPRES turns on during accent at 1,500 feet. When does it fire and at what altitude? How about the different parameters on a student model? How about the roughly 300 foot variation in its readings due to changes in body position? What happens if the CYPRES fires while a main is coming out of the bag? What are the changes of a simple two out vs. an entanglement? What are the size and type of the main and the reserve? Sadly most skydivers don’t understand the black box attached to their reserve loop.

Some of the advice I’ve seen in this thread given to a person with 25 jumps is just outright bad and worse dangerous. This thread is the reason that I absolutely hate it when students walk in saying they got information off the internet. It’s usually wrong or at minimum wrong for them as a student.

R

PS: be safe out there and remember Orthopedic surgery really does suck!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[billvon 2,476]

Too many variables for a single answer.

1000 feet over the DZ? Main, probably with some 'help.'

1000 feet over the rocks? Reserve, because my reserve is much bigger than my main.

500 feet, and I have the option to stay or go? I'll stay.

500 feet and the plane isn't landable? I'm getting out.

If I have a student? They pull their reserve below 2500 feet, pull their main about 2500 feet, and do a normal-ish exit above about 5000 feet.

[rushmc 18]

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Too many variables for a single answer.

1000 feet over the DZ? Main, probably with some 'help.'

1000 feet over the rocks? Reserve, because my reserve is much bigger than my main.

500 feet, and I have the option to stay or go? I'll stay.

500 feet and the plane isn't landable? I'm getting out.

If I have a student? They pull their reserve below 2500 feet, pull their main about 2500 feet, and do a normal-ish exit above about 5000 feet.

Had not really thought of reserve vs main size. Great point, my reserve is larger as well. I will keep that in mind.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Croc 0]

How do you deal with a planeload (3) SL students? The one in the student position is hooked up, so he'll use his main. The other two students have SOS systems with a static line in their hands. How do you get them out.
Thanks.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[Croc 0]

Checking my 2008 SIM,section 4 categry A, D.2 offers nothing specific. Of course I'll bring this up wth the DZO, but I'd like to hear how you would handle. Sorry if I'm highjacking the post.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Some of the advice I’ve seen in this thread given to a person with 25 jumps is just outright bad and worse dangerous. This thread is the reason that I absolutely hate it when students walk in saying they got information off the internet. It’s usually wrong or at minimum wrong for them as a student.

The original poster is not a student, though--northcave is just off student status. While no one should jump if they do not know the proper aircraft emergency procedures, surely northcave is at a point where he needs to reach out to a larger community of skydivers if there is something he is unsure about. Surely part of being off student status means that you can listen to advice given by many other skydivers and make a personal judgment about what is good advice and what is BS. If someone can't make such judgments for themselves shouldn't they still be on student status?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Programmer 0]

If I don't know I'm above 3000 feet, I'm going for the reserve. It's not that I couldn't hop&pop at 3000 - I have. It's just that in the confusion of an emergency exit the plane might be losing altitude, we might be over unfriendly terrain, I might be wrong about how high we really are, etc. I'm not going to take a chance on a sniveling main or an AAD or some stuff I'm not sure about. I'm sure my reserve is bigger than my main, and I'm sure it will open quicker.

[popsjumper 2]

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...2K H&P (decision alti for students)...

Netherlands Decision Altitude 2K.
Learn something new every day.

U.S. Decision Altitude 2.5K
(2008 SIM Section 4 Cat A G(3)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dragon2 0]

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...2K H&P (decision alti for students)...

Netherlands Decision Altitude 2K.
Learn something new every day.

U.S. Decision Altitude 2.5K
(2008 SIM Section 4 Cat A G(3)

Another freaky fact: our lowest exit altitude for squares is 2.5 k, for everyone (ahem)

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[RandomLemming 0]

My pilot 188 in a normal pack job (nothing rolled or folded) takes about 800ft to open on a H&P.

To clarify - exit plane at 3500ft, pitch pilot chute within 2 seconds (confirmed by video), in the saddle between 2600ft and 2500ft. Allowing for the 2s to pitch (out stable, arm back, pitch), I put subterminal deployment requirement at about 800ft.

I just LOVE JSC - I got so many hop and pops there to work this stuff out :)

[peregrinerose 0]

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Below 2K - reserve
Above - main.
Below 1K - ride the plane down.

So at 2500 feet you're going to pull the main? Hard numbers like that don't always work. Some areas are hilly and you may be flying over a 1500 ft elevation, so your altimeter reads 2500, but in reality, you are only 1000 ft above solid ground.

Just something to consider.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Baksteen 84]

You're absolutely right. That's why I added the "plane on fire" bit.

Still, a plan is way better than "we'll see what'll happen when it happens".

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[airtwardo 6]

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Below 2K - reserve
Above - main.
Below 1K - ride the plane down.

So at 2500 feet you're going to pull the main? Hard numbers like that don't always work. Some areas are hilly and you may be flying over a 1500 ft elevation, so your altimeter reads 2500, but in reality, you are only 1000 ft above solid ground.

Just something to consider.

Agree...like I said in my post way above, that's why I'm constantly looking out 'adjusting' my procedures mentally until jump-run.

Places like Elsinore can have you changing from main to reserve and back a few times during the start of the climb.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[tfelber 0]

Jump #67(C182 - 4 jumpers): At about 1200' the pilot points off in the distance and there is a wall of dirt blowing straight for the DZ. The four of us look at each other and tell him to get us over the DZ and let us out. We exited at around 1500'. All four of us deployed our mains; I was on a Sabre170, two on a Stiletto120's, one on a Heatwave135. I was first out and jumped and threw. It opened fairly quick probably less than 300 feet. One of the Stiletto's went by in a snivel, the other two canopy's opened in about the same distance as I did. We all landed safely and got inside before the storm hit.

I asked the guy who had the snivel what he was thinking and he said his hand was on his reserve handle watching his altimeter. His canopy opened before he felt the need to deploy his reserve.

The guy under the Heatwave was an instructor and the other two guys were fun jumpers with a few hundred jumps each.

So it will work, but are you willing to bet your life on it? I would probably still go to my main at around 1000 feet. Much lower and I would be looking for my reserve handle, but I am very comfortable with the opening characteristics of my main.

[MarkBolton 0]

Northcave:

Here is something I give young jumpers when they get a few more jumps than you:

So, it’s just another day at the dz and suddenly the plane is yawing around a dead engine. The pilot desperately wants you out of his airplane and someone is yelling “high speed pass-no poised exits!” and - oh, holy crap! - your altimeter reads 1,000 feet and the door is opening and -oh, holy crap! - people are leaving and now its your turn to go.
Hopefully, you have envisioned this scenario before it happens to you. Like all things wicked in skydiving, replacing your negative vibes with a positive, well-thought plan is important.
The pilot in command of an aircraft has every right to demand jumpers exit the airplane at 1,000 feet or higher. It is your responsibility to follow those directives. Your quick action can lighten the load enough to allow the aircraft to return to the airport or reach an open field. Failing to fulfill your responsibility can result in the loss of the airplane or the loss of lives such as the pilot or tandem masters and students.
The general rule of thumb for students in the past was to deploy the reserve when exiting at 1,000 feet or below and to deploy the main when exiting higher. However, as jumpers’ skills and knowledge increase they may want to deviate from the pat rule of thumb, and canopies that take a long time to open are another consideration.
First and foremost, never do a poised exit or jump up and out in any way when making an emergency exit. The possibility of striking the tail is very real.
Now, there are some questions jumpers must ask themselves when deciding which canopy to deploy. If your main canopy routinely takes hundreds of feet to open even on a hop and pop, that dictates the use of the reserve and you don’t have to read any farther .
Secondly, consider your exit skills. Many jumpers who have not experienced a high-speed pass will go unstable. Can you use an acrobatic move – made against the relative wind if necessary – to immediately regain stability? Or will you have to arch and wait for the relative wind to return you to a face-to-earth position? When exiting from 1,000 feet, you are 11-12 seconds away from putting a dent in the dirt. This is plenty of time to save your life, but there is no extra time. Taking a delay of a few seconds while regaining stability will leave you with little time to set up a landing. If you doubt your ability to remain or immediately regain stability on exit, might the reserve freebag play an important role if you deploy while tumbling?
The decision on which canopy to deploy may be a split-second one made as you leave the door. Do you want to land in a tight area with precious little setup time under a canopy you have never jumped before? If landing in a forested area is inevitable, might you be able to slow and sink your reserve better than your main?
In short, jumpers should know what is under them at low altitudes on typical climbs and have a well-thought out plan on how to handle aircraft emergencies.

[billvon 2,476]

>In short, jumpers should know what is under them at low altitudes
>on typical climbs and have a well-thought out plan on how to handle
>aircraft emergencies.

Agreed. I would also add that many skydivers do NOT have such a plan ready to go, and the confusion surrounding an emergency exit is not conducive to coming up with one.

I was once a load organizer on an Otter that had a parachute over the tail on jump run. I couldn't see the pilot, and the door was open, so I had everyone bail out. I took off my helmet, yelled "parachute over the tail! Bail out! Bail out! Bail out!" - and everyone just sorta looked at me. This is _after_ we felt something like the plane hitting a wall, and the plane pitched down 30 degrees as the parachute decelerated the Otter. There wasn't much question something was drastically wrong.

Everyone eventually got out, the parachute cleared itself and all was well.

Now, this was _jump_run_, everyone had their helmets on and visors closed, and was planning on getting out in a few seconds anyway - and there was still massive confusion. I imagined the same thing happening at 1500 feet, with people not being ready to exit, and could see the exit taking a long, long time. And at 1500 feet you don't have a long, long time.

Think about what you will do on a bailout before it happens. For example. think about whether you will put your helmet on or leave it. Same thing with goggles, camera helmets, wingsuit sleeves, tubes etc etc. Think about whether you will leave your legstraps/chest strap loose, if you do not make a habit of tightening them before takeoff. Make sure you can get out in a few seconds whatever you do. Think about how long a delay you will take to clear the tail, and whether you'll be on main or reserve (and at what altitude.) Make sure you contact manifest after you land, because they will likely have a bunch of people to account for.