Whats the differance between God and a Tandem Instructor...

[Rover 9]

God knows he's not a tandem instructor!!

A spin off from a thread running in the instructors forum but I'm getting a bit sick of the whole politically correct crap of 'instructor' and 'student' vs 'passenger' vs 'punter' vs 'cargo' etc. There are so many people out there stroking their egos and insisiting that they instructors. Maybe some are, but the majority of tandems are purely an amusement ride with a paying customer in front. If this makes you an instructor, then the guy selling dodgem car rides at the county fair is a driving instructor.
So for those wallowing in their own self importance, get over it, chuck your drogues, get paid and get on with life.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[bclark 0]

Forget about "political correctness". No matter what terms you use, there are those who teach their students and those who "chuck drogues and get paid". It is obvious that you are the latter and not the former. On a tandem jump you can teach your student proper body position, altitude awareness, how to deploy a parachute. If you put a little effort into it you can teach them about canopy control and landing too. If you let them participate they are much more likely to make a second jump, or to go on and become a skydiver. The "importance that I wallow in" is that I feel it important to invest a little time in student training. Even at a turbine DZ where the "machine needs to be fed", you can take the time to involve your student instead of treating them like another piece of meat.

[diablopilot 2]

That's what some of us are trying to change, the mind set that it's ok to sell tandems as a "ride".

Some of the best tandem instructors I've ever met are from NZ and OZ, and they ARE "instructors".

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[thirdworld19 0]

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God knows he's not a tandem instructor!!

A spin off from a thread running in the instructors forum but I'm getting a bit sick of the whole politically correct crap of 'instructor' and 'student' vs 'passenger' vs 'punter' vs 'cargo' etc. There are so many people out there stroking their egos and insisiting that they instructors. Maybe some are, but the majority of tandems are purely an amusement ride with a paying customer in front. If this makes you an instructor, then the guy selling dodgem car rides at the county fair is a driving instructor.
So for those wallowing in their own self importance, get over it, chuck your drogues, get paid and get on with life.

I am a newbie, so take this for what it is. But, I am very thankful that my tandem INSTRUCTOR took the time to teach me the basics versus treating me as cargo - which would be very easy to do. I think it takes a lot more effort and desire to teach the student/cargo.

Due to the efforts of my TI, after the first 2 tandems, I was familiar with the idea of arching, 360 turns during freefall, forward movement in tracking position, altitude awareness, waving off, learning the 3 S's when the chute first opens (square, stable, steering), some basics of canopy control (gliding, breaking, and turns), landing patterns at the airport, and flaring.

If you want to just give people a ride and be done with it, that's your prerogative - or that of your DZO. However, when you involve a student in the basics, you can create a skydiver for life.

[feuergnom 22]

did somebody take a leak in your breakfast cereals?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[cocheese 0]

There is no God. And if there is, he doesn't help pay the bills.

[BoilingMidnight 0]

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I'm getting a bit sick of the whole politically correct crap of 'instructor' and 'student' vs 'passenger' vs 'punter' vs 'cargo' etc.

Judging from the responses, striking a nerve and striking the truth often go hand and hand.

"Iþ ik qiþa izwis, ni andstandan allis þamma unseljin."

[Rover 9]

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did somebody take a leak in your breakfast cereals?

Of course I do. Isn't that how everybody has them?

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[Rover 9]

It's about risk assessment. I agree that I need to teach my passenger the proper body position. It's in my best interests as every person I take out the door has the potential to kill us both. Therefore it's in 'our' best interests to do it correctly. I don't give my passenger an altimeter so maybe I'm neglecting them in not teaching altitiude awareness. But then neither do any other drogue throwers I know. As for allowing a passenger to have access to your deployment handles....madness. Only my hands go anywhere near my handles. After the main is open I have no problems with my passengers having a 'play' with the steering toggles but there is no way that they have any form of control of the landing. Tried it and been pounded in when the passenger froze half way through the flare. They have enough on their minds sometimes just lifting their feet up.
That being said, I must be doing something right if all the comments made in my logbook by my 'pieces of meat' are to be believed.
So back to the original point. Like it or not tandems have reduced skydiving to a carnival ride and have very little value instructionally. They work as a great introduction but other than that have very little significance.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[bclark 0]

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Like it or not tandems have reduced skydiving to a carnival ride and have very little value instructionally. They work as a great introduction but other than that have very little 'value'.

No, YOU have reduced skydiving to nothing but a carnival ride through your approach to doing tandems. Tandem was invented as an instructional tool. It was not intended to be what it is (in many places) today. If you cannot succesfully teach a student to participate in things as simple as pulling a ripcord or flaring it says something about your abilities. And if it is "madness" to give your student access to a drogue release, then why do the manufacturers condone such a practice? (And even design the equipment with this in mind).

That said, I agree with you on one point. It is all about risk assesment. And if you lack the ability to succesfully train a student in simple tasks, then your approach is the right one.

[base_nz 0]

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. If you cannot succesfully teach a student to participate in things as simple as pulling a ripcord or flaring it says something about your abilities. And if it is "madness" to give your student access to a drogue release, then why do the manufacturers condone such a practice? (And even design the equipment with this in mind).

That said, I agree with you on one point. It is all about risk assesment. And if you lack the ability to succesfully train a student in simple tasks, then your approach is the right one.

If tandems are just there for the ride ( not doing a tandem as part of getting a license, which is probably why the manufactures condone it?) why would you EVER let them do something like opening for you..... or FLARE for you??!!!?....isnt this is just looking for trouble?

Do many TM's let people do this?

And buttering toast is a simple task!!!!... Having to land a parachute for the first time on your first jump with someone strapped to your back..... NOT so simple

If people wanted more responsibility during the dive surely they should do a course and start there license?.... I have seen a lot of TM's in NZ and OZ and they seem to give all the instruction needed (body position ect...) and then spend time talking to the person explaining more about the jump as they go.

Ive booked a hell of a lot of skydives for backpackers as well, and i can say that most of them dont really care about anything more than getting out of a perfectly good airplane at altitude and going for a ride
But a TM is still an instructor.... If you didnt instruct people how to get out the plane, arch lift there legs.Im guessing ou wouldn't last long?

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[Rover 9]

Risk assessment and management is the comparison between the frequency of events and the degree of consequence. The alternative to risk management is risky management which is unlikely to ensure a desired outcome. The fact that I am able to grasp this concept may say something about my abilities and the fact that you can't maybe says something about yours.
If you are prepared to add to risks rather than attempt to reduce them, that is your call. It in no way reflects on my decision making process.
Although tandem may have been conceived as an instructional tool, time has shown it to be seriously lacking. Although older designs allowed the customer access to the drogue release, none of the equipment I use does. Why? Maybe as times have changed, designers have recognised that this concept was mistaken and have made changes to remedy that. You would need telescopic arms to activate a Sigma from the passenger position.
Therefore I continue to maintain that as an instructional tool, tandem is extremely limited and as drogue throwers it is our responsibility to our customers to reduce the risk as much as possible while giving them an enjoyable ride. Accept it and move on.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[bclark 0]

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Maybe as times have changed, designers have recognised that this concept was mistaken and have made changes to remedy that. You would need telescopic arms to activate a Sigma from the passenger position.

The right hand drogue release on a Sigma intentionally simulates the location of a hand deploy pilot chute and is no more difficult for a student to reach. It is very easy for them to reach.

[PhreeZone 15]

I've spent the last few years videoing at a DZ that is primarly using tandems as a "ride" for the first jump, I spent this last weekend assisting at a DZ that actually teaches the tandem student and it is a marked difference between their reactions. In this other operation they put altimiters on the student and actually go through and do things like simulated pulls on the ground and teach the students how to read the altimeter and things. You won't find them flipping out the door or even doing a simple gainer because they are not "teaching" when they do those activities. There is a ton that can be taught to tandems if the time and effort is actually put into it. On all these skydives I was amazed that the students were actually pulling for themselves for the majority of the time (Sigma rigs)

I was amazed that a large portion of the people that did the tandems then asked for the info on the AFF course instead of having it shoved at them. The students actually wanted to continue on their own once they had been taught from the first moment that skydiving was with in their reach as an activity they could do and it wasn't just a ride.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[diablopilot 2]

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Therefore I continue to maintain that as an instructional tool, tandem is extremely limited and as drogue throwers it is our responsibility to our customers to reduce the risk as much as possible while giving them an enjoyable ride. Accept it and move on.

Sounds like you're just not trying.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[headoverheels 291]

The difference is that God, like a large pizza, can actually feed a family of four.

[Chubba 0]

I live on a nice coastal beach where tandems land, the only dropzone near me is 110% tandems, no students or fun jumpers allowed under ANY circumstances.

$400, you get your video and t-shirt, then you bugger off never to be seen again.

They land in front of my unit, 50 tandems a weekend, every weekend.

I don't judge people, but this dropzone seems pretty spot on with his assumptions (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Then again I've seen TI instruction for a few jumps, then a great AFF student...

So I'm guessing there's one and the other...

[des 2]

onya rover, i agree with u 100%.after 8000 odd tandems , i learnt how to look after myself and my punter. the few people that were interested got as much training as they wanted, but i never allowed them to pull the the drogue release,or assist with landing,,except on a tandem aff jump.

[piisfish 135]

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God knows he's not a tandem instructor!!

does that mean that we are better than God ??

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[bclark 0]

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The difference is that God, like a large pizza, can actually feed a family of four.

Oh shit that made me laugh! I needed a little humor injected into this conversation.
And God (whether he is a tandem instructor or a large pizza) help me if I ever refer to my student as a "punter".

[slotperfect 7]

Instructor<>Master
Student<>Passenger

In the big picture of things, it's completely semantics and it really doesn't matter what they're called. It's a form vs. function argument at best.

In the end it boils down to a few important things:

-Individual personal philosophy (or apathy)
-DZ/School policy (or lack thereof on the subject)
-To what end one is making the change in verbage (or not)

My own choices:

-I call civilian tandem customers "students" and I try and teach them a few things no matter how many jumps they plan on making. I have had students who did not intend on being a career skydiver go from a tandem with me to being national competitors. That's not only a great feeling for me but it feeds the sport that I love, so if calling them students helps, it's an easy change for me to make. I don't beat my drum about it, I just do it that way.

-I call military front-riders "passengers." They are there to fulfill some sort of military mission, whether it's proficiency training for me or an operational guy taking a needed asset with a particular skill set into a target.

-I call myself and other Tandem staff members "Instructors." Most importantly it implies some sort of two-way relationship: I impart the knowledge, the customer gains from it somehow. In the end, the tandem student learns more about themselves from the experience because they made the decision to come jump in the first place then I could ever teach them about the mechanics of it all. Again, I don't stand on a soapbox preaching it, but that is the way I see it.

-I call military Tandem pilots "Tandem Masters" because it is akin to "Jumpmaster" which is already a very familiar authoritative term in the military jumping world.

So, the reality of it is that some will call a spade a spade and some will call it a shovel. As long as it digs like it's supposed to without hurting or killing anybody, that's all that counts.

Arrive Safely

John

[jpechbre 0]

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If tandems are just there for the ride ( not doing a tandem as part of getting a license, which is probably why the manufactures condone it?) why would you EVER let them do something like opening for you..... or FLARE for you??!!!?....isnt this is just looking for trouble?

Do many TM's let people do this?

The TMs at my DZ give every student the option of opening the chute if they want to. The drogue chute is deployed by the TM upon leaving the plane. The TM assists in two practice touches to the ripcord, and the student is told to pull at 6000'. If they don't pull shortly thereafter there's still plenty of time for the TM to open the chute safely by themselves. Even if the student was planning on doing just one tandem jump for fun (like on my first jump) this helps them fulfill a requirement for their training progression, were they to come back to jump again, and makes them feel like they're a part of the experience. I should mention that every student is also given an altimeter and taught altitude awareness.

The student can tell if the instructor is truly there to make a fun learning experience, or just to take their little envelope of cash and push them out the door when the time comes. I do agree that letting a student flare for both of you is a bit much, learning to flare correctly is an acquired skill, and I'd image even more so on tandem rigs, but hey I'm no instructor so what do I know? All in all, letting the student participate will lead to a much higher possibility of a second jump, without compromising safety.

[danflux 0]

I just went through my two tandems and first AFF very recently, and I have to say I very much appreciate what my tandem instructor did for me. Beyond canopy flight stuff, the three S's etc, he even made a point to teach me about airplane exit procedures and pilot communication. He taught me how to turn and track (although I know this is impossible with a drogue, it was still fun to try and get the body position down). It left me more prepared and confident for AFF and I actually learned more on how to skydive, rather than just feeling like an ATM to the DZ, where I probably would've made the decision to go elsewhere.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I don't give my passenger an altimeter so maybe I'm neglecting them in not teaching altitiude awareness. But then neither do any other drogue throwers I know. As for allowing a passenger to have access to your deployment handles....madness.

I don't like to get into heated online arguments, but dude... you're out of line. Period.

If providing the passenger with a handle (and thus an active role in saving his own ass) is "madness" then I can't imagine what you think of AFF... arguably the best, most effective way to teach skydiving. Why is it madness? what are you afraid of? the guy dumping at 12000'? so what?

Yes, you ARE negligent in not allowing your passengers an altimeter, and I don't give a s*** what anybody else does.

Tandems have NOT reduced skydiving to a carnival ride. Lazy instructors and greedy DZ's have. Good instructors and forward-thinking DZ's use them as an effective tool... even better DZ's promote AFF for those who are interested.

Your students comments in your logbooks are irrelevant and say NOTHING of your skills and even less of your instructional capability. They are coming off an adrenaline high and could have been strapped to a monkey, had an AAD fire their reserve, and been remote-controlled in to a rough landing and they'd have gushed all over the monkey because they don't know any better.

I can possibly understand not letting a 1st jump tandem student help the flare, but the process should still be explained/practiced while you're up there. If you've got two sets of toggles on your canopy, there's even less excuse.

Bottom line, tandem indeed has less value than other forms of instruction, but can be an excellent introduction to the sport. IMO any 2nd jump student should immediately be put into AFF or IAD/static line, and almost all 1st jump students should at least be given the option. Some students want the jump to be a carnival ride, and that's fine... we won't see them again anyway. But for those who are expecting more, we should provide more. If we don't, we're lazy. If tandem is our only option, we should do our best with the tools at hand instead of making excuses for what amounts to laziness, lack of skills, or greed.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[bclark 0]

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Your students comments in your logbooks are irrelevant and say NOTHING of your skills and even less of your instructional capability. They are coming off an adrenaline high and could have been strapped to a monkey, had an AAD fire their reserve, and been remote-controlled in to a rough landing and they'd have gushed all over the monkey because they don't know any better.

Dude, you just made me shoot cup o' noodles out of my nose! That shit stings!

You notice the only ones coming to the defense of this type of tandem are other "drogue chuckers". I have read several posts in this thread from STUDENTS expressing their appreciation for being allowed an opportunity to learn.

We don't force any student to learn. If all they want is to go for a ride we still provide that service. Because there ARE students who want that. But the vast majority when given an opportunity to participate will take advantage of it, and in doing so gain a greater sense of satisfaction from their first skydive.