rgaray 0 #1 July 31, 2008 Do you remember when you just started skydiving? Your first ten jumps, you were probably scared to death, then things got better and up until your 100th jump, you were probably the safest skydiver you could have been. After that....what begins to happen to some? I happened to enter the sport (End of May) where I witnessed a fatality at my home dropzone while I was doing my solo jumps. 2 weeks later, another fatality happened at a dropzone only 10 miles away, and as of late, someone ended up in the hospital in a ventilator who barely had 100 jumps. So, since day 1, I've been eager to learn absolutely everything I can about the sport, both the good and the bad, I've studied the incidents, I've read all the opinions. The last couple of fatalities have involved people not realizing they had a malfunction until they unstowed their brakes....on top of that, they didn't have an RSL or a Skyhook, and to top that off, some didn't even have a Cypress. What's up with this retarded trend? Seriously, everyone needs to remember that every single time you jump, you're in control of saving your own life when it comes to pull time, and follow through with all the procedures you were once taught. Why do some people ride their canopies at half brakes without unstowing until a few hundred feet above or below the hard deck? Is it because they're too lazy to hold the steering lines for 3-4 minutes? Why do you undo your chest strap? Because you want to be a little more comfortable under canopy? I've heard of so many cases of people going in or almost going in simply because they had problems locating their reserve handle because the lose chest trap had made it hard to find. So again, is it worth your life? If you're at 100-300 feet and the wind suddenly changes on you and you find yourself landing downwind, why, do some people go making 180 degree turns? We were taught how to PLF right? I rather break a leg, than break my neck. Why do some skydivers jump their rig without a cypress? I asked a couple of skydivers at my home dropzone why they were jumping without a cypress and one said "it's too expensive man...I can't afford one right now", and someone else said "I had to sell mine because I needed the money"....and all I can think is, what kind of a mentality is that? I'm not saying a cypress is your key to surviving ANYTHING that may go wrong, but it's an example that can apply to everything else. If there is a system available for you out there to INCREASE your chances of surviving, whether it's a cypress or a skyhook, or even a hook knife, why jump a rig without it? I don't understand where this lack of awareness comes from. Are people forgetting the dangers because their last 300 jumps were flawless and without incident? I've made a promise to myself that no matter what, at 100 or 1000 jumps, I am still going to do the exact same procedures every single time, rig check, mind check, pull handles, unstow breaks right after deployment and look absolutely everywhere around me for people that want to kill me, period. If everyone did this, and everyone had this on their mind, we would have 1/3 of the fatalities we've had so far. We keep hearing about "experienced" skydivers going in.....I've realized..."experience" might not have played that much of a role in any of those circumstances. I love skydiving, I am thrilled to have found a sport that truly fulfills and inspires me beyond anything I've ever done before. Yet, can you blame me and others that are just getting started for being so pissed off and annoyed at all these things that are happening to this sport and the blackeye its getting from the outside world simply because people got too experienced and TOO comfortable? The fatalities we've had this year....too many were unnecessary, and the trauma that I went through in the beginning stages of my skydiving career when I watched a dead body laying on the ground for 5 hours being surrounded by cops, skydivers, fire and coroners is something I will never forget. Can we please make each jump as if it was our first? -R--- "It takes courage to walk through the rain on a cold and foggy night, but it is those nights that dawn the most beautiful mornings." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #2 July 31, 2008 It's already starting to scare me. I have not witnessed a fatality but as I visit more bigway camps, it could happen as I continue this sport. To other guys that are replying in this thread, let's take it easy on this one. Let's not predictably needlessly nitpick over details of the post (i.e. legitimate no-AAD uses for CRWdogs, etc); I can see dissapointment in this post is real. Fresh unbiased perspective from a relatively new jumper. QuoteCan we please make each jump as if it was our first? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Loonix 0 #3 July 31, 2008 Quote Why do some skydivers jump their rig without a cypress? I asked a couple of skydivers at my home dropzone why they were jumping without a cypress and one said "it's too expensive man...I can't afford one right now", and someone else said "I had to sell mine because I needed the money"....and all I can think is, what kind of a mentality is that? Same as mine, better to jump without one, than to sit on the ground. Now that I do have the money for one, I'm buying one. The safest thing would be to quit skydiving, you know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgaray 0 #4 July 31, 2008 Quote The safest thing would be to quit skydiving, you know. Eh...I hope you didn't misunderstand me ;) The dangers and the risks are a given, I'm very aware something could happen to me too at anytime, no matter how safe I am. The point of the thread is about being as safe as possible.--- "It takes courage to walk through the rain on a cold and foggy night, but it is those nights that dawn the most beautiful mornings." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #5 July 31, 2008 QuoteIt's already starting to scare me. I have not witnessed a fatality but as I visit more bigway camps, it will happen as I continue this sport. FTFY. As one of my instructors was kind enough to tell me when I had 4 jumps "If you can't handle the idea that over the course of your jumping life you WILL have a friend or loved one seriously injured or killed, then quit now" As skydiving has become safer, the fatalities/year has remained fairly constant. We can't take away the human factor. No matter how much safety gear you have, we're still human and we play in a sport very unforgiving of even the slightest errors. If people cant handle that, get do yourself a favor and get out now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #6 July 31, 2008 People make their own choices in life. They assume the level of risk that they're personally comfortable with. In the minds of us noobs it's much easier to see things more simply I think - it's very straight forward. We can commit to doing things a certain way because we don't know a better way or even that there is another way. I think there's a lot of gray that most noobs don't know about where more experienced skydivers are aware of these things and make more informed choices. None of the safety devices can be depended on 100%. AADs, RSLs, Skyhook, Audible, Altimeter, Main, Reserve, etc so coming to depend completely on those things may be misplaced. Having been riding motorcycles for several years, I feel that the choices are similar. A lot of people only wear a helmet. I wear full leather, race boots, full face, back protectors, armor, race boots, full gauntlet gloves, etc whenever I ride. Will it necessarily save me? Nope. But I'm mitigating the risks as best I can. I think some people aren't aware of the risk, others don't really care. Some think it won't happen to them and others quit the sport after they realize it can. I happen to agree with you but, honestly, this is a sport (similar to riding) in which you can do everything right, have all the gear and still die. How people choose to deal with that reality is up to them. Edit: This seems kind of relevant: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=663 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #7 July 31, 2008 Quote Why do some people ride their canopies at half brakes without unstowing until a few hundred feet above or below the hard deck? Is it because they're too lazy to hold the steering lines for 3-4 minutes? Because the industry told them that Velcro was too 1980s. It does provide a nice place to stick your toggles and provided you bother to stow your toggles on landing has no effect on Spectra line life (Spectra lines have shrunk too much after 300 jumps. You can just replace the brake toggle lines to get some slack but that doesn't address the impact on opening speed and stability with the brakes stowed so you might as well replace the lower steering line plus brake toggle line with a single piece of line with a cat-eye for the brake setting) and does little to other line types (They might get a little fuzzy at 300 jumps so you replace them for $.10/jump including shipping. Whatever). Quote Why do you undo your chest strap? It allows for bigger harness-steering inputs and makes the canopy more resistant to developing pilot-induced line twists. I like being able to spiral faster than most other canopies just picking up one leg and leaning the other way. Quote So again, is it worth your life? Sure. Quote If you're at 100-300 feet and the wind suddenly changes on you and you find yourself landing downwind, why, do some people go making 180 degree turns? We were taught how to PLF right? I rather break a leg, than break my neck. I've opened at ~300 feet above the landing area (the trees made for somewhat less room) and still had plenty of space for a nice 180 degree turn into the wind. I've made a 90 degree turn around hangers at 10-15 feet (it's fun to fly around them at 40-50 MPH). With the proper technique it's just not a big deal. Quote Why do some skydivers jump their rig without a cypress? I asked a couple of skydivers at my home dropzone why they were jumping without a cypress and one said "it's too expensive man...I can't afford one right now", and someone else said "I had to sell mine because I needed the money"....and all I can think is, what kind of a mentality is that? If you're not doing AFF (the only Cypres fire I've seen where the owner was actually unconscious was an AFF where the student was a little weird at pull time and the instructor got conked) you only die if you get too busy having fun to pull or do something really stupid. That does happen fairly often, but it's skydiving not golf right? Quote Can we please make each jump as if it was our first? That wouldn't be much fun. Please let us know how you feel after 500 or 1000 jumps. Skydiving is pretty simple. Start with what you learned as student 1) Pull 2) Pull at a safe altitude 3) Pull stable Add what you should have learned shortly thereafter. I made some jumps with a dude from the ranch (Paco, Yo!) at the convention who put it most succinctly "We touch our friends gently" (in free-fall) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #8 July 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteIt's already starting to scare me. I have not witnessed a fatality but as I visit more bigway camps, it will happen as I continue this sport. FTFY.Touché. I'll deal with it -- I'm not going to quit, though. That being said, this post by a new skydiver can still be a wake-up call, a cry for action - the surge of genearlly avoidable deaths is still unreasonable and could be improved upon. That's why I say, fresh perspective from a new skydiver to remind us to think about our sport. I have no desire to nitpick on some details which may even be naive or inaccurate, just I recognize the cry of dissapointment is real and understandable. Is this going to have to become a much worse year than last? Normally hundreds of jumps pass, or even well over a thousand, before one witnesses the first death... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #9 July 31, 2008 We had 20 reported fatalities last year. We already have 19 this year, actually more, that doesn't include the most recent. These include Canada. http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/2008/North_America/index.shtml By category in order of frequency 2008: Landing Landed in electrical wires Landing Hard landing while making a low turn Landing Hard Landing while making a low turn Landing Tandem - Low turn Landing Tandem - Low Turn Landing Canopy stalled Malfunction RDS entangled in lines Malfunction Cutaway after main malfunction Malfunction Spinning main Malfunction Spinning malfunction - no cutaway Other Suicide - Jumped without Parachute Other Medical issue Other Struck head on tail of airplane Unknown Entanglement with deploying reserve Unknown Unknown - Military HALO training Collision Hard landing due to canopy collision Reserve Problems Unstable reserve deployment No Pull No Pull Hard opening 2007: Other Low reserve opening after canopy collision Other CRW wrap Other Medical condition Other Medical condition after injury Other Heart Attack Malfunction Low cutaway Malfunction Released toggle Malfunction Broken lines on main Malfunction Line twists at low altitude Landing Hard landing while making a low turn Landing Hard landing while making a low turn Landing Hard landing while making a low turn Landing Wake turbulence Collision Canopy collision at 150 feet Collision Canopy collision at 150 feet Collision Canopy collision at 500 feet Collision Canopy collision at 500 feet Unknown Low Cutaway No Pull No pull on wingsuit jump Reserve Problems Main/reserve entanglement Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
potatoman 0 #10 July 31, 2008 I would not say do every jump like your first one. I would rather say, do what you did, and that is to learn. The more you learn, the more you think through situations, the more you speak to instructors etc. Learn from mistakes made, from tales. Specially when a person doesn't have experience, they tend to do things silly, they forget what they have been told. The instructor should actually be able to spot potential "mishaps", and give them more attention on the ground. This is not a sport for the one who is ignorant. It is written at every entrance at every dropzone, even written on the chute itself, it is dangerous so be carefull, and get trained.You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is. Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum" Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #11 July 31, 2008 Welcome to skydiving. Bill Booth, the guy who invented the three ring release, and the skyhook has a saying about skydivers which is that for every safety improvement you make, skydivers will only find another way to kill themselves. Many of the statements you made are not true. The vast majority of skydivers do not undo their chest strap under canopy. Some do loosen it for various reasons, and having a loose chest strap has been thought to be a contributing factor in an incident or two, but the connection hasn't been proven. Jumping with a Cypress will do you no good if you cutaway too low. By the time you accelerate up to Cypress activation speed, you're too low for your reserve to deploy anyway. An RSL or Skyhook is always a good idea, but the over-riding factor os that you need to be mindful of your altitude, deploy your main on time, and if need be initiate emergency procedures above your hard deck. As far as people being retarded, you hit the nail on the head with that one. People are, and you being a person are also retarded. Just because your retardation hasn't reared it's ugly head at the DZ just yet doesn't mean it won't. Be patient, and you too (god willing) will find yourself standing the landing area after a jump, shaking your head at your own stupidity, and thanking the good lord for letting you get away with it. Any jumper that has been around for a few years has at least one story or soemthing they did that was as dumb as dumb can be. That's where the phrase, "No shit, there I was..." comes from. When a guy starts a story with that line, listen up because it will be a good one. Fatalities are going to happen. It sucks but it's true. 2007 was a good year, and 2008 looks like it will be a rough one, but the two should average each other out. Don't expect a significant change in the numbers until there is a significant change in the training, and operational procedures at DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #12 July 31, 2008 Kudos to you for seeming to be very aware and heads up! Here's a few pointers that you might already know, but that merit some additional attention: -Nothing is new under the sun. Things that people have died from this year are the same things that have killed people before. Undoubtedly, despite our best education efforts, people will die from them again. All you can do is make sure that you (and your friends) are practing the best safety measures possible. Or quit skydiving. -Your personal acceptable risk level will likely increase as you gain experiance. At 100 jumps, you may not think it is acceptable to collapse your slider, lower it behind your head, and loosen your chest strap. But you might feel differently in another hundered, or more. But you might not. That's fine too. For me, at 300 jumps, a full RDS is not worth the hassle, rigging concerns, etc, but I might feel differently at 1000 jumps. Surely, you cannot expect everyone to assume the same risk level as you. -Why does everyone not have every available safety measure (AAD, skyhook, etc)? Convenience and personal choice come to mind among others. I don't have a skyhook, but I sure think its a good idea. I would have been pretty unhappy if I was made to buy a new rig when the skyhook came out because "its just such a good idea, you would be foolish not to have one". My rig is still pretty good, although my next one will absolutely have a skyhook. Quote >>Why do some people ride their canopies at half brakes without unstowing until a few hundred feet above or below the hard deck? Is it because they're too lazy to hold the steering lines for 3-4 minutes? >>If you're at 100-300 feet and the wind suddenly changes on you and you find yourself landing downwind, why, do some people go making 180 degree turns? We were taught how to PLF right? I rather break a leg, than break my neck. Why do people do these things? Well, thankfully, most do not. And these, like most risky behaviors, will not result in a fatality or even an injury every time. While certainly a bad idea, once someone gets away with it once, history has shown that they will continue to do it until they do not get away with it. That's how people die. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #13 July 31, 2008 no safety gear is completely safe. alot of the gear you use today has been made safer because of problems caused by the gear or mixing of the gear. you need to way the risks of what you do in this sport to what safety gear you need to use. I personally did not get an AAD until 98 because previously they had caused deaths and problems and were unreliable. RSL'S also had some issues that is why the skyhook was invented. The main thing i was taught as a student was I was going to save my life and it was up to me to do it ! also never put yourself in a position to have to rely on a safety device. the devices today are much better and usually pretty reliable but still they have risks. the questions you need to ask are not why so and so doesn,t have this or that the question should be why was this person in a position that needed that piece of equipment and how can I avoid that situation. question everything, find solutions to not be in bad spots and have fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #14 July 31, 2008 QuoteWhat's up with this retarded trend? It is only a retarded trend from your point of view. QuoteWhy do some skydivers jump their rig without a cypress? Because some skydivers accept that level of risk. QuoteI don't understand where this lack of awareness comes from. Some skydiver accepting a level of risk that is different than yours does not mean that they lack awareness. QuoteIf everyone did this, and everyone had this on their mind, we would have 1/3 of the fatalities we've had so far. How do you know we would have 1/3 the fatalities? How do you know we wouldn't have 1/3 the skydivers?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #15 July 31, 2008 I'm not a newbie- and I'm still dissappointed. Low pull/no pull used to kill everyone. Now it's low turns/hook turns. Most of these accidents are preventable, and I try to do my part to prevent them. Last boogie I was at had a fatality from a canopy collision at 100 feet, killing someone who figured it was his God-given right to swoop in traffic, despite a prohibition on all swooping at this event. I feel your attitude to safety is a little casual. Have you ever had to run out into a field to check for a pulse you know won't be there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #16 July 31, 2008 If you stay long enough, one day your sabre 170 will feel huge,, one day you'll start to loosen the chest strap,, and you'll start to take more unnecssary risks... and by the way your wingloading under sun bleached sabre 170 isn't really safe choice either...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #17 July 31, 2008 QuoteThe last couple of fatalities... they didn't have an RSL or a Skyhook, and to top that off, some didn't even have a Cypress. What's up with this retarded trend? You're right, too many people are dying because they're jumping out of planes with unsafe gear. In fact, there are too many people dying in lots of ways. We shouldn't allow skydivers to jump without RSL's, Cypress's and canopies loaded at 1.0+. We shouldn't allow people to ride motorcycles. We shouldn't allow people to rock climb. We shouldn't allow people to climb Mt. Everest. We shouldn't allow people to scuba dive. Just think of all the lives we could save! And if all those motorcyclists, rock climbers, mountain climbers and scuba divers try to ban skydiving - fuck 'em! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #18 July 31, 2008 QuoteLow pull/no pull used to kill everyone. Now it's low turns/hook turns. Most of these accidents are preventable, and I try to do my part to prevent them. Last boogie I was at had a fatality from a canopy collision at 100 feet, killing someone who figured it was his God-given right to swoop in traffic, despite a prohibition on all swooping at this event. You're right, most of these accidents (especially canopy collisions) are preventable. However, that doesn't mean we should prohibit swooping all together and make RSLs, AADs, etc... mandatory. QuoteI feel your attitude to safety is a little casual. I think you are mistaking my attitude towards safety with my attitude towards adults being able to make their own decisions when it comes to their gear. QuoteHave you ever had to run out into a field to check for a pulse you know won't be there? No and I hope I never have to (I did take a first responder course in case I have to)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #19 July 31, 2008 Quote Quote The last couple of fatalities... they didn't have an RSL or a Skyhook, and to top that off, some didn't even have a Cypress. What's up with this retarded trend? You're right, too many people are dying because they're jumping out of planes with unsafe gear. In fact, there are too many people dying in lots of ways. We shouldn't allow skydivers to jump without RSL's, Cypress's and canopies loaded at 1.0+. We shouldn't allow people to ride motorcycles. We shouldn't allow people to rock climb. We shouldn't allow people to climb Mt. Everest. We shouldn't allow people to scuba dive. Just think of all the lives we could save! And if all those motorcyclists, rock climbers, mountain climbers and scuba divers try to ban skydiving - fuck 'em! Don't forget skiing and snow boarding."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #20 July 31, 2008 QuoteI've made a promise to myself that no matter what, at 100 or 1000 jumps, I am still going to do the exact same procedures every single time, rig check, mind check, pull handles, unstow breaks right after deployment and look absolutely everywhere around me for people that want to kill me, period. If everyone did this, and everyone had this on their mind, we would have 1/3 of the fatalities we've had so far. We keep hearing about "experienced" skydivers going in.....I've realized..."experience" might not have played that much of a role in any of those circumstances. If you were a robot, this would almost, but not quite, guarantee your continued safety. But people continue to make mistakes, even those with the exact mentality you propose. And it's impossible to know how you will react under the same circumstances that lead some of these people to fatal outcomes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yardhippie 0 #21 July 31, 2008 The first night I hung out at the DZ, which happened to be the night after my first jump. I sat and talked to the local jumpers and my instructors. I was hooked, coming back the next day to level 2 AFF. I was told that if I stayed in the sport either my friends or myself would be hurt or killed. Day 1! Guess what? One of the guys I when through AFF with made some agressive turns round jump number 20 for me and shattered his arm. Ugly scene. I have been hurt. I lost so many friends, ugh. Most of us learn as much as we can. we all make evaluations on our skydiving career based on what we see, hear, experince. There is no way to control people opinions. All we can do is give 100 percent to education, learning, information and no tolerance for rule infractions. Don't let it get you down. Learn and promote!Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgaray 0 #22 August 1, 2008 To sum it up, I guess we can say that this sport is as dangerous or as a safe as we want to make it. I guess my emphasis though is on the ones that do something they know will do nothing but raise the probabilities, putting themselves at risk, KNOWING about it and therefore making themselves and everyone else around them vulnerable to unnecessary dangers. Hasn't anyone ever had a newbie swooper or some dumbo cut infront of you on final just because they didn't care to look out for traffic? Stuff like that scares me, cause I have no control over it. -R--- "It takes courage to walk through the rain on a cold and foggy night, but it is those nights that dawn the most beautiful mornings." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rwieder 0 #23 August 1, 2008 QuoteSkydiving is pretty simple. Start with what you learned as student 1) Pull 2) Pull at a safe altitude 3) Pull stable # 1 & # 2 are allright. # 3, is incorrect. If you wait until 500' AGL or until your stable, you'll be in a bind. "Pull at you assigned altitude, stable or not."-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VTmotoMike08 0 #24 August 1, 2008 QuoteTo sum it up, I guess we can say that this sport is as dangerous or as a safe as we want to make it. Not sure what you are trying to say, but its kinda a catchy phrase. And it is not as safe as we want to make it. I would like it to make it as safe as golf, but that will never happen. I guess my emphasis though is on the ones that do something they know will do nothing but raise the probabilities, putting themselves at risk, KNOWING about it and therefore making themselves and everyone else around them vulnerable to unnecessary dangers. You are still not quite getting it. Go back and re-read the posts about personal risk levels. Yes, those who swoop (etc...) know that it increases their risk level. Yet, to them, the risk is worth the reward. Your risk vs. reward level seems to be in another (lower) place, at least for now. Read this again in a few years and see if you are still in the same place. Most will not be. You fail to mention the rewards for taking risks. Those who swoop and do other riskier activities obviously find some reward in it. Even skydivers don't do dangerous stuff just for the hell of it (generally). Quote Hasn't anyone ever had a newbie swooper or some dumbo cut infront of you on final just because they didn't care to look out for traffic? Stuff like that scares me, cause I have no control over it. Yes, but this statement has little to do with your previous ones. This swooper is infringing on someone else's rights, and no one is arguing that this should be allowed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #15 July 31, 2008 I'm not a newbie- and I'm still dissappointed. Low pull/no pull used to kill everyone. Now it's low turns/hook turns. Most of these accidents are preventable, and I try to do my part to prevent them. Last boogie I was at had a fatality from a canopy collision at 100 feet, killing someone who figured it was his God-given right to swoop in traffic, despite a prohibition on all swooping at this event. I feel your attitude to safety is a little casual. Have you ever had to run out into a field to check for a pulse you know won't be there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #16 July 31, 2008 If you stay long enough, one day your sabre 170 will feel huge,, one day you'll start to loosen the chest strap,, and you'll start to take more unnecssary risks... and by the way your wingloading under sun bleached sabre 170 isn't really safe choice either...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #17 July 31, 2008 QuoteThe last couple of fatalities... they didn't have an RSL or a Skyhook, and to top that off, some didn't even have a Cypress. What's up with this retarded trend? You're right, too many people are dying because they're jumping out of planes with unsafe gear. In fact, there are too many people dying in lots of ways. We shouldn't allow skydivers to jump without RSL's, Cypress's and canopies loaded at 1.0+. We shouldn't allow people to ride motorcycles. We shouldn't allow people to rock climb. We shouldn't allow people to climb Mt. Everest. We shouldn't allow people to scuba dive. Just think of all the lives we could save! And if all those motorcyclists, rock climbers, mountain climbers and scuba divers try to ban skydiving - fuck 'em! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #18 July 31, 2008 QuoteLow pull/no pull used to kill everyone. Now it's low turns/hook turns. Most of these accidents are preventable, and I try to do my part to prevent them. Last boogie I was at had a fatality from a canopy collision at 100 feet, killing someone who figured it was his God-given right to swoop in traffic, despite a prohibition on all swooping at this event. You're right, most of these accidents (especially canopy collisions) are preventable. However, that doesn't mean we should prohibit swooping all together and make RSLs, AADs, etc... mandatory. QuoteI feel your attitude to safety is a little casual. I think you are mistaking my attitude towards safety with my attitude towards adults being able to make their own decisions when it comes to their gear. QuoteHave you ever had to run out into a field to check for a pulse you know won't be there? No and I hope I never have to (I did take a first responder course in case I have to)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #19 July 31, 2008 Quote Quote The last couple of fatalities... they didn't have an RSL or a Skyhook, and to top that off, some didn't even have a Cypress. What's up with this retarded trend? You're right, too many people are dying because they're jumping out of planes with unsafe gear. In fact, there are too many people dying in lots of ways. We shouldn't allow skydivers to jump without RSL's, Cypress's and canopies loaded at 1.0+. We shouldn't allow people to ride motorcycles. We shouldn't allow people to rock climb. We shouldn't allow people to climb Mt. Everest. We shouldn't allow people to scuba dive. Just think of all the lives we could save! And if all those motorcyclists, rock climbers, mountain climbers and scuba divers try to ban skydiving - fuck 'em! Don't forget skiing and snow boarding."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 July 31, 2008 QuoteI've made a promise to myself that no matter what, at 100 or 1000 jumps, I am still going to do the exact same procedures every single time, rig check, mind check, pull handles, unstow breaks right after deployment and look absolutely everywhere around me for people that want to kill me, period. If everyone did this, and everyone had this on their mind, we would have 1/3 of the fatalities we've had so far. We keep hearing about "experienced" skydivers going in.....I've realized..."experience" might not have played that much of a role in any of those circumstances. If you were a robot, this would almost, but not quite, guarantee your continued safety. But people continue to make mistakes, even those with the exact mentality you propose. And it's impossible to know how you will react under the same circumstances that lead some of these people to fatal outcomes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #21 July 31, 2008 The first night I hung out at the DZ, which happened to be the night after my first jump. I sat and talked to the local jumpers and my instructors. I was hooked, coming back the next day to level 2 AFF. I was told that if I stayed in the sport either my friends or myself would be hurt or killed. Day 1! Guess what? One of the guys I when through AFF with made some agressive turns round jump number 20 for me and shattered his arm. Ugly scene. I have been hurt. I lost so many friends, ugh. Most of us learn as much as we can. we all make evaluations on our skydiving career based on what we see, hear, experince. There is no way to control people opinions. All we can do is give 100 percent to education, learning, information and no tolerance for rule infractions. Don't let it get you down. Learn and promote!Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgaray 0 #22 August 1, 2008 To sum it up, I guess we can say that this sport is as dangerous or as a safe as we want to make it. I guess my emphasis though is on the ones that do something they know will do nothing but raise the probabilities, putting themselves at risk, KNOWING about it and therefore making themselves and everyone else around them vulnerable to unnecessary dangers. Hasn't anyone ever had a newbie swooper or some dumbo cut infront of you on final just because they didn't care to look out for traffic? Stuff like that scares me, cause I have no control over it. -R--- "It takes courage to walk through the rain on a cold and foggy night, but it is those nights that dawn the most beautiful mornings." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #23 August 1, 2008 QuoteSkydiving is pretty simple. Start with what you learned as student 1) Pull 2) Pull at a safe altitude 3) Pull stable # 1 & # 2 are allright. # 3, is incorrect. If you wait until 500' AGL or until your stable, you'll be in a bind. "Pull at you assigned altitude, stable or not."-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #24 August 1, 2008 QuoteTo sum it up, I guess we can say that this sport is as dangerous or as a safe as we want to make it. Not sure what you are trying to say, but its kinda a catchy phrase. And it is not as safe as we want to make it. I would like it to make it as safe as golf, but that will never happen. I guess my emphasis though is on the ones that do something they know will do nothing but raise the probabilities, putting themselves at risk, KNOWING about it and therefore making themselves and everyone else around them vulnerable to unnecessary dangers. You are still not quite getting it. Go back and re-read the posts about personal risk levels. Yes, those who swoop (etc...) know that it increases their risk level. Yet, to them, the risk is worth the reward. Your risk vs. reward level seems to be in another (lower) place, at least for now. Read this again in a few years and see if you are still in the same place. Most will not be. You fail to mention the rewards for taking risks. Those who swoop and do other riskier activities obviously find some reward in it. Even skydivers don't do dangerous stuff just for the hell of it (generally). Quote Hasn't anyone ever had a newbie swooper or some dumbo cut infront of you on final just because they didn't care to look out for traffic? Stuff like that scares me, cause I have no control over it. Yes, but this statement has little to do with your previous ones. This swooper is infringing on someone else's rights, and no one is arguing that this should be allowed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #25 August 1, 2008 And some people (100 jumps) can get seriously injured (read near fatal) flying a Navigator 220; fully equipped with RSL and Cypres. We put are selves at risk the moment we set foot on the plane, regardless of what rig we jump. If you want to be risk averse, don't jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
And some people (100 jumps) can get seriously injured (read near fatal) flying a Navigator 220; fully equipped with RSL and Cypres.
We put are selves at risk the moment we set foot on the plane, regardless of what rig we jump. If you want to be risk averse, don't jump.
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