1st time in a cloud

[finch 0]

I had to pull and opened up in the middle of a cloud.I tried to track over it but didnt make it.I was nervous not being able to see all but a few feet in any direction, before I went into it I figured out the shortest way out and flew straight till I could see again

"Never go full retard"

[billvon 2,400]

1) If it's thick, don't just fly off in one direction for ten minutes. Start a _slow_ spiral so you won't move too far from your opening point (which presumably was a decent spot for setting up a landing.)

2) Yell a lot so other people can hear you. Biggest risk in a cloud with a big load is collision with other jumpers after opening. Hearing isn't a great way to locate other canopies, but it's better than nothing.

3) Keep an eye on your altimeter, in case the cloud layer extends all the way to the ground.

[Jazzthieve 0]

This thread is helpfull:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3135180;#3135180

-Sorry, don't know how to make it a clicky.

[JohnDeere 0]

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This thread is helpfull:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3135180;#3135180

-Sorry, don't know how to make it a clicky.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3135180;#3135180

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[Stuntbabex 0]

Try exiting in a cloud. You cant spot worth a shit!

[MakeItHappen 15]

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1) If it's thick, don't just fly off in one direction for ten minutes. Start a _slow_ spiral so you won't move too far from your opening point (which presumably was a decent spot for setting up a landing.)

Whatever you do- DO NOT make turns or spirals to get out of a cloud.

Technically, I don't know anything about opening in clouds.

But I heard this great advice, just recently, at a big-way I helped organize:
If you open in a cloud - fly towards the sun. Make a turn to get headed towards the sun, but after that don't turn until you are out of them.
If everyone does this they all have pretty much parallel trajectories until they pop out under the clouds.
After you are out of a cloud, then you can clear your airspace and make turns when traffic permits it.
Don't look for this to ever be in the SIM either because no USPA member has ever opened in a cloud and therefore never needs this advice.

Most often cloud layers around opening altitudes are only 1000-2000 feet thick.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[stayhigh 2]

If you can spot the sun,, then you really aren't in clouds,,,,, aren't you???

and saying that no USPA member has ever opened or skydived thru cloud are just about same as saying that there are no global warming and we have fantastic economy, and our 17 year old sons and daughters are not touching drugs and not having sex...

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[yeyo 1]

I dont know man...what if its 12 noon and the sun is straight up?
I was told during AFF to do slow spirals till Im out of the cloud, and it makes perfect sense to me. Theres no danger of hitting anyone if everybody does the same nad its the faster way out...

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[Broke 0]

Well the reason you won't find it in the SIM is because we are supposed to spot with plenty of room around the Clouds. In essence skydivers are VFR pilots, and as such we are not supposed to fly in clouds. I believe it is FAR 105.17 cloud clearances

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

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2) Yell a lot so other people can hear you. Biggest risk in a cloud with a big load is collision with other jumpers after opening. Hearing isn't a great way to locate other canopies, but it's better than nothing.

I was also told one time that you should leave your slider uncollapsed. Basically anything you can do to make noise.

[billvon 2,400]

>I was also told one time that you should leave your slider
>uncollapsed. Basically anything you can do to make noise.

That can be a good idea. But if it makes so much noise that you can't hear other people's slider it is sorta self defeating. Yelling makes as much noise but you can stop periodically and listen.

[billvon 2,400]

>DO NOT make turns or spirals to get out of a cloud.

Spiralling hard can be bad because it can be disorienting. But turning gently can prevent you from ending up 4 miles away over the ocean.

>If you open in a cloud - fly towards the sun.

You can't see the sun when you are in clouds. Needless to say, if you can see anything at all (part of the sky, the sun, a piece of the ground) use that for orientation and navigate that way.

[brettski74 0]

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If you open in a cloud - fly towards the sun. Make a turn to get headed towards the sun, but after that don't turn until you are out of them.
If everyone does this they all have pretty much parallel trajectories until they pop out under the clouds.

In a thick cloud you won't necessarily be able to tell exactly where the sun is, since the water droplets scatter the light and create a large area of relatively similarly bright light. What's more, your perception of differences in the intensity of said light can be as much to do with the composition and thickness of the cloud in that direction as it is on the direction to the sun. Needless to say, your idea of "towards the sun", while already taking you further out into the middle of Lake Erie or some other similarly large hazard, may also lead you into a collision course with your buddy's idea of "towards the sun".

The most common advice I've been given, and the advice that makes the most sense to me is pretty much what billvon said - slow right-hand spiral, make noise, listen and look.

I'm also wondering what altitude you threw your pilot chute? I'm imagining at your jump numbers you are still pulling pretty high. Did you think about maybe freefalling a little longer to get through the other side of the cloud where you can see what's going on? If you do this, just remember that regardless of what happens, you will always pull at or above the hard deck, so make sure you're watching your altitude first, and the cloud second.

[bloody_trauma 2]

just joking but

cut away

Fly it like you stole it

[Oke 0]

If you enter a cloud in flight I would not do anything but straight and level flight. You may very well alreay be disoriented as your body is sending you cues that could possible be unreliable. Spiral turns can cause even more disorientation. Gentle turns even worse!

If your body is in motion with out visual reference to a horizon or artificial horizon your sence of balance and knowing "which way is up" are completely unreliable.

90% of the information used to maintain a sence of balance is through visual cues.

Our secondary system to aid in balance is our inner ear or our "vestibular system". How ever the inner ear can only suplement our vision and can not replace it.

A very basic outline of the vestibular system is that the inner ear has 3 perpendicular tubes that contain water and tiny hairs that line the tubes. As the body moves, the water moves, thus in turn moving the hairs, giving signals of pitch, roll, and yaw. (This is how you can walk with your eyes closed :) ) How ever if you take inertia into account...if you start a motion, then suddenly stop it (ie Flying on your belly into cloud, pulling, abruptly chaging body position to vertical) this cases the water to continue in motion ... when in reality the body has stopped.

A simple test of this theory/explaination is the "forehead on the bat trick". Bend over and place your forehead on a base...spin around 10 times...stand up and try to walk a straight line. voila Inertia of the inner ear.

If you go to the other side of the spectrum from sudden movements to little movements now ... Think of gradually moving your body, slow enough so that the water does not need to "catch up" via inertia ... in fact it stays relatively calm. Now without any visual referance, moving the body slowly with the inner ear not in motion .... now you're really messed up!

3 degree's of roll per second is not noticable with out visual cues.

Lesson of the day: Stay straight in level with out visual cues. Period.

Besides ... You knew what cloud base was prior to the jump right? Situational awareness 101. Thus you can guess when you'll pop out.

-Adam Oke

[chrismgtis 0]

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1) If it's thick, don't just fly off in one direction for ten minutes. Start a _slow_ spiral so you won't move too far from your opening point (which presumably was a decent spot for setting up a landing.)

2) Yell a lot so other people can hear you. Biggest risk in a cloud with a big load is collision with other jumpers after opening. Hearing isn't a great way to locate other canopies, but it's better than nothing.

3) Keep an eye on your altimeter, in case the cloud layer extends all the way to the ground.

This is basically what I did when I was in this situation not too long ago. There was a massive cloud right over the DZ. I pulled high so I wasn't worried about jumpers. I was more afraid of aircraft, but that concern is very low at our DZ, even though local small aircraft do take off from time to time. The clouds were at about 8-9000 feet.

What I didn't want to do is stick to the edge of the clouds, because I feared this would lead me too far off course and I would have to land off. I'll take my chances in a cloud when I've pulled high before flying under parachute for 3 miles. I say this because this patch of clouds was gigantic. Normally I would just fly around it or if I was at the edge of it I'll just spiral a few times and get below it.

So I knew the cloud cover was right over the DZ. It wasn't bad weather clouds, just a nice big thick white puffy cloud. So basically from where I was, at some points I could BARELY see the lake next to the DZ, but at one point it got so bad that I couldn't see anything for probably an entire minute. I would fly for about 100 feet and turn in the exact opposite direction that I was flying so that I was basically moving back in forth in as much of the same spot as possible. I knew this would keep my over the DZ since I started doing this once I saw the lake and that the cloud cover wasn't high enough to mean that when I came out I wouldn't have time to get back. When I finally got out of the clouds I believe I was at about 6 or 7000 feet and I was also right above the DZ landing area, so it worked pretty well.

I was surprised how massive this cloud formation was. I've flown very close to clouds and touched them on several occasions, but the patch was very small... maybe at the most a hundred feet wide and 50 or so feet in height. Nothing to cause concern. I've also fallen through clouds a few times. The first time there was a massive blanket of very thin (maybe 50 feet in height) cloud below me. I remember thinking it was one of the coolest jumps I've been on, because I got ground rush as I got closer. The other time, there was a fairly thick cloud that I fell through for about 3 seconds. I didn't prefer to do it, but I would have had to track beyond my skill to get over it.

Clouds can be your friend. Just be smart.

And as Billvon said, I did keep an eye on my altimeter, which is why I remember "about" how thick and high the clouds were and where the opened up at. If you didn't have an altimeter and weren't paying attention to the cloud ceiling on the way up, that could be a bad deal. I have a habit of looking out the window, finding where the cloud ceiling is if there are any clouds at all (almost always just small patches), but it's always come in hand to know this the few times clouds have been a concern.

Also, I just want to make it clear that the situation and how you handle it is going to be different. Just like someone said, spiraling or flying back and forth as I did in that one scenario could be a very bad idea when there are a lot of other jumpers in your air space. In my situation I was the only one over a mile to the ground since I pulled high.

P.S. The poster that said always fly straight in a cloud. Personally I can't agree with that, cause there are times that could be a bad idea. Usually not, since we aren't going to be near a large cloud formation very often, but it can happen as it did in my case. I feel that I know how to handle myself in this type of situation and flying straight just wasn't an option for me in my scenario. But usually straight flight is best I guess in most cases. At our DZ we have so much room to work with that I could be 2 miles off and still get back, from pull altitude sometimes, but at most DZs that just isn't going to happen.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[Oke 0]

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P.S. The poster that said always fly straight in a cloud. Personally I can't agree with that, cause there are times that could be a bad idea. Usually not, since we aren't going to be near a large cloud formation very often, but it can happen as it did in my case. I feel that I know how to handle myself in this type of situation and flying straight just wasn't an option for me in my scenario. But usually straight flight is best I guess in most cases. At our DZ we have so much room to work with that I could be 2 miles off and still get back, from pull altitude sometimes, but at most DZs that just isn't going to happen.

At no point in time flying straight is a bad idea if you are jumping in conditions where the cloud base permits a safe "cloud exit altitude". So what if you land out? Fly safe. If you pop and out find you can't make it back to your suggested landing area ... suck up the ego and instead of trying to make it back, chose another landing area. Land outs are fine ... just inconvienent and likely costs beer.

I think along with your body giving false indication, then further disrupting it is dangerous. You can only have so many strikes before you lose. Unfortunatly this game you just don't go to the end of the line and try again later. It's been killing pilots for years and year. People still don't learn. Your wing is just different profile than my wing that I am familiar with flying.

-Adam Oke

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[billvon 2,400]

>You may very well alreay be disoriented as your body is sending you cues
>that could possible be unreliable. Spiral turns can cause even more
>disorientation. Gentle turns even worse!

Right. But here's the thing - it doesn't matter.

In aircraft, maintaining attitude awareness is critical. In some attitudes (a steep turn) there is no one way to recover without instruments. You need to know which way to turn the yoke to level the wings.

In parachutes, you just plain let go of the toggles if you get disoriented. Parachutes, if not turned aggressively, will recover to straight-and-level flight once you release the toggles. It is important not to spiral hard, since heavily loaded canopies can spin up - and there's a point at which they will not recover even if you release the toggles.

Part of your strategy should include what terrain you are over. If you're near water or 3000 foot mountains, turning is critical to prevent you from finding yourself over an ocean - or worse, discovering that you are seconds from hitting the side of a cliff. In these cases, making gentle turns is critical to prevent serious injury or death. For a local example, Otay would be a place where you cannot assume you will find yourself over a safe landing area if you just fly straight.

If you are over known-good landing area, then it doesn't matter as much. Flying straight isn't all that bad, provided you can deal with an out landing. Eloy is an example here.

The last time I was in heavy cloud I wasn't familiar with the area and I knew that there wasn't much in the way of outs. We broke off and pulled in the cloud. Since I knew we had both tracked well I knew we had room, and so we both turned in fairly wide circles until we popped out from underneath. The cloud was a few thousand feet thick, so it was worrisome for a while. But the spot was good and thus we popped out close to the DZ, and even though we didn't get out of the cloud until 1000 feet had time to set up and land.

[DSE 3]

This is Jack Guthrie's recommendation at SDU. It's rare we end up in clouds, and contrary to some posts above, it's *easy* in our area to see which direction the sun is coming from. Having opened in clouds near the sea, however, light diffusion still isn't much of an issue, there is a hot spot that shows where the sun is.
Added to that, our rule is right hand turns, slow-only. Never thought about leaving the slider unstowed for sound. One sound forever ingrained in my brain is the sound of Jay Stokes' slider flapping all night long during his world-record jump event. Couldn't see him, but you always knew when he was under canopy, even with people yelling, cheering, etc.

[Oke 0]

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>You may very well alreay be disoriented as your body is sending you cues
>that could possible be unreliable. Spiral turns can cause even more
>disorientation. Gentle turns even worse!

Right. But here's the thing - it doesn't matter.

It's not so much what is going on while you are disoriented, but the after math of what happens when you re-gain visual cues after your vestibular system has been telling you other wise.

Vertigo or the "spins" if you will, giving you the tumbling head over heels sensation is one example. I personally wouldn't want to be planning an approach with that on the mind.

How ever your comment with regards to terrain is very very valid. I did edit my post (.. might have been while you were typing.) with regards to situational awareness and a safe "cloud exit" altitude. I agree with that.

-Adam Oke

[kelpdiver 2]

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At no point in time flying straight is a bad idea if you are jumping in conditions where the cloud base permits a safe "cloud exit altitude". So what if you land out? Fly safe.

what's safe about flying straight into the space where someone else might be falling (the first 30 or 40 seconds) or descending on their canopy? The point of the slow right hand approach is to reduce the likelihood of overlapping. Still relies on proper exit separation, but that has better odds than everyone going straight in whatever direction they opened in.

Hardly seems to qualify for "at no point in time," though I have no idea what the 'safe cloud exit altitude' exclusion means.

Personally, I'd rather sit out when the base of the clouds is close to my hard deck. I recall a great 4 way jump where the bottom of the cloud was right at the planned breakaway.

[Oke 0]

Ok if you are tossing more people into the equation, don't refer to my post as I have no idea about procedures. What I was discussing were the physical conditions and illusions that the mind and body will go through giving you spacial disorientation.

Because I didn't know how else to phrase what I was trying to portray with a "safe cloud exit altitude". I'll try again.

Busting through cloud base at an altitude and position that poses no conflict with terrain, or the given altitude required to plan a safe approach.

-Adam Oke

[kelpdiver 2]

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Ok if you are tossing more people into the equation,

You have to include other people - the smallest jump plane has 4 people, the Pac and KingAir in the teens, the otter 22 or 23, the Casa in the 30s.

If collisions aren't a concern (the reason why we don't bust clouds in the US, only haze), sure, fly straight. But the only person with a chance of no one above is an AFF student, and that person better be held on the plane.

[Oke 0]

Ok, so a lagit rookie question then.

Assuming legalities of things. Most will pull prior to cloud entry? Correct? But for those who don't follow the rules...

What are procedures upon entering cloud regarding pulling? Pull immediatly? Pull after you're clear of cloud?

What prevents collision flying a turn vs. straight?

-Adam Oke

[Baksteen 84]

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Did you think about maybe freefalling a little longer to get through the other side of the cloud where you can see what's going on? If you do this, just remember that regardless of what happens, you will always pull at or above the hard deck, so make sure you're watching your altitude first, and the cloud second.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this?
What about the two-way which exited in front of you?
Plan the dive, and all that...

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom