NickDG 23 #51 September 4, 2008 >>I think the one jumpmaster AFF stuff is a pretty shitty way to do it.I do too. But have we ascertained that's what it was? If he went through a tandem progression program (which also sucks) then the first AFF dive are single JM. If they are doing single JM AFF right off the bat we are getting very close to what I've been saying for years. The AFF staff is a large cash drain on drop zones. And they'd like nothing better (from a business standpoint) then to get rid of them altogether. So the next step will be some tandem jumps and then throwing the students out on their own with dual AADs. It's not like it is totality without precedent. Years ago Navy rigger trainees had to make a single jump as part of their classes. And it was a solo ten second delay! NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #52 September 4, 2008 Quote Quote *** Would be nice but really it is not really our business is it and a instructor should not feel like they have to justify their judgement call to the world. The desicion would have been hard enough, we dont need to stress him out by making him answer to this. We should support him and give him the benefit of the doubt as he has more than likely just made the call of a lifetime. Ummm...... read my whole paragraph, including the edit that I added before you replied Not all my post was directed at your comment. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #53 September 4, 2008 Quote>>I think the one jumpmaster AFF stuff is a pretty shitty way to do it.<< I do too. But have we ascertained that's what it was? If he went through a tandem progression program (which also sucks) then the first AFF dive are single JM. In the case of the DZ I teach at, we do two tandems and then a level 2 AFF with two instructors. The program in whole is slightly more expensive than doing straight AFF, but we don't feel comfortable sending them on with just one person when they have never experienced flight w/o a person strapped to them. This is supposed to be about making skydivers, not cash and we don't make any more money off tandem progression people than we do on straight AFF.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #54 September 4, 2008 QuoteSorry for the picture quality... 1-2: http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2694/82000251ud8.jpg 3-4: http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/148/68574089tj0.jpg 5: http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1870/59922693it2.jpg I'm only a student myself--and haven't jumped in awhile--so I'm not qualified to really offer an opinion but only to ask questions. But I'm curious about what seems an inconsistency between the logbook for jump #5 and their decision for you to quit the sport. The logbook entry seems to say that you can continue in the sport, albeit repeating Level 3 once again. There's a huge difference between saying you have to quit entirely versus saying you just have to repeat a level but can continue at the same level. It's just that if they really want you to quit, you'd think they would say so in the logbook so as to warn other DZ's as to a student they consider unsafe. They stopped short of doing so and I'm wondering why. So I'm wondering whether something happened on the ground, after the logbook was signed, that prompted their decision. I know, having been asked to repeat levels myself, that it pays to be very respectful of your instructor's point of view and to listen carefully to what they say. If you somehow left the impression, even after the jump and debrief was over, that you weren't really listening to what they said--it could have prompted their decision, especially if they already had some concerns (which it sounds like they did). That could also have prompted their decision from a financial standpoint. If someone had a positive attitude but just wasn't cut out to jump safely--even with repeat jumps--I would think they'd offer a partial refund for unfinished jumps. If, on the other hand, someone had already established a reputation as an "attitude problem" after five jumps, the DZ might not feel the same obligation to offer a refund. Bottom line--I'm not qualified to offer an opinion and even the experienced instructors on here seem reluctant to do so because we don't know the DZ's point of view--but I'm curious about the apparent disconnect between their decision and the logbook entry that seems to encourage you to continue despite difficulties."It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #55 September 4, 2008 >>In the case of the DZ I teach at,That's not a horrible way to do it, but . . . One problem I see in my travels is we all used to do AFF exactly the same way across the board. Now there is every imaginable program there is. Tandem to Freefall, Static Line to Freefall, Three Tandems to Freefall, Five Tandems to Freefall, and it looks like we may now have Single JM to Freefall. The problem with this is we lose the ability to track trends that become dangerous until it's too late. And sometimes I see DZs are coming up with programs that aren't so much to benefit their students, but to just work around what kind of staff, gear, and aircraft they have. I believe the AFF program went over twenty years being very safe because we were all on the same page. All through the 80s and 90s the standard AFF program was inviolate. If you changed something on your own, and something happened your ass was blowing in the breeze and nobody would come to your defense. Now we are at the point where, "Oh, that's how we do it," is becoming acceptable. People who know me will say I'm not a lockstep kind of guy. And the only part of my entire life where anyone could call me "conservative" is when I'm dealing with skydiving students. And in that area I'm the Ronald Regan of skydiving Instructors. And it just seems to me we are getting dangerously close to just winging it . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeregrineFalcon 0 #56 September 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteHe said he heard every radio command. When he heard us shout, "turn left!" he said he looked up and realized that the entire time he had been holding one toggle and thought he had both of them. Yikes, what a story. It's a good thing he wasn't pulling both toggles pulled down for 4000 feet? LOL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
derrickiv 0 #57 September 4, 2008 My first five jumps were solo 10 second delayed pulls.. The Academy puts a lot of people through each year like that and most do just fine.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martlet 0 #58 September 4, 2008 QuoteQuote>>I think the one jumpmaster AFF stuff is a pretty shitty way to do it.<< I do too. But have we ascertained that's what it was? If he went through a tandem progression program (which also sucks) then the first AFF dive are single JM. In the case of the DZ I teach at, we do two tandems and then a level 2 AFF with two instructors. The program in whole is slightly more expensive than doing straight AFF, but we don't feel comfortable sending them on with just one person when they have never experienced flight w/o a person strapped to them. This is supposed to be about making skydivers, not cash and we don't make any more money off tandem progression people than we do on straight AFF. I'm obviously a noob with my 9 jumps in the past 2 weeks. I made it to AFF solo status in 7 jumps. My first 3 jumps were with 2 instructors, poised exit from inside. Watching the videos posted, my jumps were nothing like his. My instructors corrected my problems, allowing my first jump or two to gain confidence and comfort. They didn't let go from the moment we hit the door until I threw. Subsequent jumps with two, then one, instructor gave me just as much freedom as I "earned". I was shocked when I viewed these videos. I don't think I would have performed well under those conditions. I'm really thankful I had such great instructors, and an incredible club to learn at. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #59 September 4, 2008 QuoteIf he went through a tandem progression program (which also sucks)I guess from a cost cutting perspective, shortening AFF by having more tandems, would probably suck. I should point out, maybe the ones that don't suck are the ones that aren't called "tandem progression" but a "3 or 4 tandem prerequsite" before a full 9-jump AFF-type program. That's how I started... That would be like adding required tandems to the beginning of a full AFF program. The first one or two just is for fun, the last two with training exercises such as altitude awareness, turns, canopy control, with an instructor behind you, etc. That was what I was suggesting to the OP -- an extended program with extra training tandems added on, not necesarily an official abbreviated version of Tandem Progression... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #60 September 5, 2008 Quote And it just seems to me we are getting dangerously close to just winging it . . . NickD I'm in that boat right along with you. What happened to consistency? It's out of control and there's no getting it back. Nick, we, as a group, ARE winging it these days. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fred 0 #61 September 5, 2008 QuoteI was advised that I'm "unsafe and a hazard to myself" and would not be allowed to continue. Needless to say, I was a little upset, not to mention the "no refund or raincheck" on the remaining two jumps. I won't comment on the unsafe part. That is the instructor/DZ's call, and there's not enough information to comment on it. However, for them to not refund your money is an issue for me. You paid for services. They chose not to provide those services, so you are due a refund for an unused jumps. You kept your end of the deal, and they chose not to keep their end. They should refund a prorated amount of your money. I suspect you'd have a pretty easy case in small claims court. That is, if you kept your end of the bargain, which is to not endanger yourself and others. If they caught you drinking or doing drugs before skydiving, then no refund is required. I'm sure there are other circumstances that would constitute a violation of your side of the deal. But a lack of skill or even a bad attitude would not fulfill this requirement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
astro556 0 #62 September 5, 2008 As far as asking if I did anything stupid under canopy or on the ground....No, it was never even brought up. I realize I have little experience to speak from, but I know for a fact that I didn't endanger myself or anyone else. I flew around, made a few turns, practice flares, then started the pattern, and landed away from the main area. No spirals, no near collisions, no crash landings... The course was supposed to be completed in two days. After two jumps, I was exhausted. I wish I could have spaced it out more, to fully take in everything that happened during the freefall. I got so worked up over it I actually started doing worse. I asked about getting a refund, and got a very solid "no!".. There is a sign that says "no refunds - rain checks will be issued". Because I "failed the course", I get neither. I don't quite understand it..But I honestly don't feel like fighting over $200! I think I'm going to wait a while to cool off, then restart the program at another dropzone. Even if it costs more, I'd rather pay for quality instruction that I can control (and have fun with) rather than a discount student mill. P.S. What's wrong with Van Halen?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #63 September 5, 2008 Your story is very similar to mine. I too paid up front for a single JM AFF course and after 4 jumps in 1 day was asked to leave. I was returning to the sport after a brief 25 year break and was confident I would sail right through. My jumps were not that bad and I as I passed each level I thought I was on my way. I was not cocky and was open to criticism, so I was kind of shocked when I got the boot. I went to another and much smaller DZ, explained what happened and was given the chance to start over. It was one of the best decisions I ever made. I am just waiting to do my A check dive now. ( I also spent 15 minutes in the tunnel) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #64 September 5, 2008 Nothing wrong with Van Halen, it's just more of a tandem type song. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #65 September 5, 2008 >>Because I "failed the course"Never heard that one before. >>The course was supposed to be completed in two daysNever heard that one before either. No student should make more than two AFF jumps per day. An exceptional one might do three. Single JM AFF? Pass or fail AFF courses? Kicked out with no refund? Are these guys a traveling DZ on wheels or something? NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #66 September 5, 2008 Quote I think I'm going to wait a while to cool off, then restart the program at another dropzone. Even if it costs more, I'd rather pay for quality instruction that I can control (and have fun with) rather than a discount student mill. I bet there's another dz near you that teaches by the ISP and uses two jumpmasters for the lower levels. I'd suggest heading out there this weekend and at least talking to them about what you'd need to do. Doubt you'd have to repeat the whole process. Then when you're licensed and have your own gear, go back to the first dz you jumped at and request the balance of your money in tickets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #67 September 5, 2008 Since I know where you did this now, follow Skybytch's advice and go to another DZ . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #68 September 5, 2008 Find another DZ. Your instructor has some bad habits as evidenced by the video, and if you're not connecting with them, move on.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrbiceps 0 #69 September 5, 2008 This sounds like pretty crap service from this dz if u ask me. I have just done aff in australia. Over here you dont move on to the next stage until u pass the stage u are on. No matter how many goes it takes you and how much it costs. How you can get to 5 jumps and then they tell you to rack off is pathetic. If they felt you were unstable you should have failed the first jump and kept trying it until you passed it. You dont just show a student the door especially when you owe them money. You should have been encouraged to maybe get in a tunnel and work on your stability. I would have thought a student who is struggling would be a godsend to a dz as they keep paying for the same jump until they get it right. Hold your head up buddy. Move on to a dz that will look after you and dont give up. Getting that "a" license in the mail is one of the best feelings in the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #70 September 5, 2008 Quote Since I know where you did this now, follow Skybytch's advice and go to another DZ . . . NickD Would it be wrong for you to share that?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
derrickiv 0 #71 September 5, 2008 You still haven't really stated why they failed you. Can you give us more details? I feel like a large part of the story is missing here.. and I'd demand that $200 back (assuming you're entitled to it). That's about 1/6 the cost of AFF at another DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #72 September 5, 2008 Quote Since I know where you did this now, follow Skybytch's advice and go to another DZ . . . NickD I'm sure this advice is pretty spot on if she knows where you were doing the course.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #73 September 5, 2008 Quote It's not like it is totality without precedent. Years ago Navy rigger trainees had to make a single jump as part of their classes. And it was a solo ten second delay! NickD The Air Force Academy used to, and, I think, still does train that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #74 September 5, 2008 Quote Quote Quote They have to pay him back if they refused him the product/service he paid for. Scum bags if they dont. Absolute total scumbags.The first 2 jumps didn't look that bad. i've taken worse. Same here. What's the rest of the story...... Blue ones, I don't know, but I'm guessing he knows how to count his change. I hope all DZ's would give a deserved refund in a case like this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 19 #75 September 5, 2008 Hi Nick, I believe that was the AFA that was doing that 10 second hop training from back when?? The Navy Riggers training I went thru Spring of 1967 "Parachute Riggers 'A' School Class 714, Lakehurst NJ" Our "Class Jump" was a "Hop and Pop" with a Navy NT-5 from 3K out of a C-117 (R-4D a Navy version of the C-47) . At one point some years later one of the Base CO's discontinued the class jumps much to the dismay of everyone. After he left the next CO reinstated them!!! BTW My class jump was my 290th jump 18MAY1967. For everyone else in the class, it was their "First!!" Butch Schuster had a hard pull!! He jerked it a couple of times and finally uncorked his reserve about 1500' or so getting himself a little unintended freefall time!!SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
