what's the deal with packers in the US!?

[Staafi 0]

I have been to Canada, which I understand is not the US - but close to it.

There I saw 2 dropzones. One was a bit more hobby-like and one professional.
On both dropzones you could find people doing packjobs. People there thought it was A: convenient and B: safe, due to the amount of packjobs done by the packing-staff.

I took the opportunity to learn some facts about packing, material & hints from these professionals.

I am not sure about Switzerland, but there are quite a few people in Germany who think the same way. Furthermore the idea to give the "money-needing-ready-to-do-some-extra-work-during-having-fun" people on the dropzone the opportunity to afford more jumps.

So having professional packers is, from my point of view, a nice to have. Looking into sports in general: Those who do something as a full time job tend to push the limits and develop a lot of things further - wether its motorcycle gear, outdoor wear, skydiving stuff or even just packing things....

I see it as a demand and supply question.
We have the freedom of choice, which is a great value!

Cheers, Chris

@Virgin Burner: doing a Pin Check or any other "dubble checks" is not only a nice to have. Even though you check / act carefully - there are still a lot of other jumpers around you who may be not as eager on their movements...(specially unagile geezers in small planes )


EDIT: Forgot to mention the cultural difference between at least Germany and the US. The US are way more service oriented - we tend to do things way more ourselves, not being ready to pay for services. Maybe also a reason.

[pirana 0]

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i sleep in the bar, get smokes mugged from, smell nice and have a bad reputation..

I sleep at home, get smokes bummed from me, smell tolerable, and have a good reputation from most (I think - but they could be just being nice and actually hate me).

Who is next? I want to know how everybody thinks their odor is perceived.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[NickDG 23]

>>why dont YOU pack for yourself!?
It's like many things in skydiving. But this one is more about how what's normal changes in the sport and the rate of that change . . .

In days of yore (yes, I'm running out of ways to say back in history) jumpers stayed in the sport longer, and if not, they got out quicker. Over simplistically you either quit before your hundredth jump or you stayed for lifetime. The reason was those first hundred jumps was a no man's land where you needed a very strong desire to become a skydiver and a thick skin to stand all the barbs, snubs, and time spent as the invisible man. Then once you put yourself through that hell you now had too much invested to easily walk away and quit.

But now, in general, we treat newbies a thousand times better. And we now have a new measure of how long people stay around. The USPA will say the average is seven years. I don't know how correct that is but I do know there's been a change. One reason is I started to hear something at the DZ that I never heard before. "Every time I go over to drop zone X-ray it's all new people." You especially hear this from experienced jumpers who only frequent larger DZs every few months or so.

But if we do take USPA's seven years as a bench mark it can be said we are now on our third generation of jumper who never knew skydiving without paid packers. So to them it's normal and acceptable.

Another example is the use of helmets. Most jumpers of the 70s, 80s, and early 90s where very anti-helmet. It was mostly a throwback to our hippie roots when "Skydiving is about freedom, man!" We saw the value in helmets. We knew the safety and security they offered and we certainly made our students use them. But we weren't about to give up our freedom for safety and security. (See any parallels to other modern events?)

But helmets became normal very quickly, and almost overnight it seemed to me. Whispers on the aircraft went from, "Watch out for that guy in the helmet," to "Watch out for that guy in the Frappe Hat." The first generation of over-protected children where now hitting the drop zone and that had something to do with it. These were the first kids that grew up wearing helmets on their bikes and skateboards.

But even more than that the ratio between old and new jumpers on the drop zone prevented the old ways from continuing and cleared the way for the new.

Before paid packers we all packed for ourselves. It was a point of passage and pride and the packing area was where we preened and socialized between loads. But sometimes you'd see someone's wife or girlfriend (when not a lot of woman jumped) packing for a guy and that was considered a very cool thing. So we can say there was no automatic built in block to other people packing for us. At least when it was someone you taught to do it and trusted. But I try to imagine what would have happened had someone thrown up a sign at Lake Elsinore that said, "Pack Jobs, Two Dollars!" in 1978? It's possible it might have worked but I don't think that particular entrepreneurially imagination existed at that time. And while some of the most experienced may have went for it, the lesser so couldn't as they were still trying to prove themselves. Skydiving in those days was a great leveler in that rich and poor all had to suffer equally to attain respected skydiver status.

So now it's surprising to me people are still making excuses for using packers. You've heard them all in this thread, "I'm doing video turn-arounds, I'm doing competition turn-arounds, I'm doing big-way turn-arounds, blah, blah bla." Me, I see it simply as the way it is.

And that's fine, except for one group. The Instructors. They are, or should be, the king of multitaskers and when they pack while debriefing the last student or briefing the next one what are they really doing? They are actually, albeit not overtly, giving their students their very first packing lessons. And it gets them ready and excited for that day when they show up for one of the later AFF levels and you tell them "It's time you learned to pack."

I've heard it said the advent of paid packers had more to do with the introduction of ZP fabric than anything else. And I think there is something to that, but not the whole story. I could take a wuffo off the street and in a week have him packing brand new ZP like a pro. But he'd have to be willing to work his ass off with patience and a big frustration avoidance level. It used to be packing was as simple as folding the laundry. You had to know how, but it didn’t present itself as impossible the first time you tried it. Now it seems no one wants to put in the time to develop what riggers call a good hand. That's the ability to make fabric, even brand new ZP, do what you want and at the same time make it look easy.

So what comes next? We already have some people you could call experienced who can't jump if there isn't a packer available. We already see fun jumpers who use packers and say it's faster but at a busy DZ doing it yourself is faster unless you have a dedicated packer. But it allows them to walk around now preening and socializing rather than doing it while packing. As most people can't pack and fool around at the same time because they simply never learned how . . .

NickD

[cjsgrlsx3 0]

I do know how to pack for myself but my daughter packs also. She really enjoys the work. Sometimes she will even come home and tell me something new she learned from packing someone else's rig. Packers are hard workers.

[kelpdiver 2]

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i did say MOST, not all sport jumpers wouldnt pack themselves. reading around here gave me that IMPRESSION. and i'm not talking about instructors, i do have a certain understanding that they wont pack themselves if they're at a busy dropzone.

This thread would end a lot quicker if you just stopped insisting on believing what you believe, with no evidence to support it.

In LA at Perris and Elsinore, you could probably get away without packing. But not if the majority of people did.

Up here in the 5 DZs surrounding SF, it would be very inconvenient to rely on them exclusively.

[airtwardo 6]

why dont YOU pack for yourself!?

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I DO!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

"Watch out for that guy in the helmet," to "Watch out for that guy in the Frappe Hat."

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Up until a year ago I WAS that guy in the frap hat...a few too many big-ways with the 'socializers' convinced me to armor up the melon a bit.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[pirana 0]

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i dont want to call for prejudices, you know, the fat, lazy, ignorant american.. why dont YOU pack for yourself!?

Yeah, you nailed it on the head there. We Americans are all a bunch of fat, lazy ignorant bastards. Especially the ones from Texas. Everyone knows that you Europeans are much more enlightened and advanced than us. Have pity on our poor souls.

Correction, we are all fat, lazy and ignorant because we are all rich - not poor.

Yes that's it; we are all rolling in money, . . .and . . . naked woman, and . . . guns, lots of guns, and we hate everybody who is not just like us, and . . .

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[klingeme 0]

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i've wondered that many times, and asked in respective threads, but never got an answer to it.

all i know about them, if it wasnt for boogies or teams training, i read about on here. they sleep in the back of the hangar, mug smokes, smell bad and have generally a bad reputation..

in switzerland, everything works a bit different in skydiving. me, i packed my rig from my very first jump on. to pass AFF, you're automatically having to do the packing test which consists of a messed up rig that you have to bring in order. something along the lines of a step-through underneath the slider and some turn-around (or whatever that's called) above it. before that, your instructors will check certain steps during your aff to make sure you dont jump a malfunctioning canopy. those steps get less as you go along.

so you're being thaught to take responsibilty of your own (well, the rented student-stuff anyway) gear right from the beginning on. i'm actually quite confident i'll hardly ever have a mal, as i'm taking great care of my packjobs. maybe part of that is i'm jumping an original sabre, so, i'm trying to prevent slammers anyway.. and actually, i wouldnt trust anyone else to do it too! if something does go wrong, its my own fuck up and the only one to blame is me.

i read around here that people dont know how to pack, or are only using packers. for me this is part of skydiving, and i actually enjoy it, getting in close-up contact with my canopy, i can check on wear and so on.

why this different attitude? cultural differences? i dont want to call for prejudices, you know, the fat, lazy, ignorant american..

why dont YOU pack for yourself!?

We're (Americans in general) LAZY. When I went to learn to pack to get my A license, I was told "Do you want to learn to pack or just get you license?" If you just wanted the license, they would have you flat pack, if you wanted to learn to pack for yourself, they would teach you to Pro Pack. I thought about it and said "in 1000 jumps I would have spent $5000 on pack jobs.....I think I'll learn to do this on my own" For others, their time and frustration is worth the $5 a pack job.

[repcool 2]

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So what comes next? We already have some people you could call experienced who can't jump if there isn't a packer available.

I went to a small drop zone in Florida when I had about 30 jumps and no confidence in my packing. I only got one jump in that day because I couldn't find anyone to pack for me. You can bet I came away from that lesson and spent time learning to pack!

I went to 6 DZ's around the country this year and packed myself at all of them.

[RMK 3]

This is my bane with jumping in the UK – no packers. Sure I can pack myself, but I skydive for fun. Packing is NOT fun. I have no problems with paying someone 5 GBP/EUR/USD (whatever country I’m in) for me not to roll around on the floor for 15 minutes each jump. Do 8 jumps and that’s 2 hours of pissing around with your rig when you could be having coffee, chatting with your mates or just generally fucking around.

Support your local packers and have a more enjoyable day.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[flyangel2 2]

Well said.

I've been in the sport for 25 plus years and reading that post sure brought back a lot of memories.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[virgin-burner 1]

i just wrote a very long post that just sounded too weird. basically, for me its part of the sport which i love, and i wouldnt want it to be taken away from me.

that is all!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[pwln 0]

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what speaks against paying attention to those things while packing and checking again before boarding yourself?

When we learn to jump we also learn gear checks (including pin checks) and are required to have someone else check it and later on check someone else. I think it is also in cat F as well.


from http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Man_SIM_2008.pdf
USPA Skydiver Information Manual 2008 (Page 60)
Section 4 (Category D)
D Equipment

3. Pre-jump equipment checks
Note: The instructor should guide you through a complete pre-flight
equipment check using a written checklist.
a.Before each jump, check your equipment before
putting it on.
b. With the help of another jumper, get a complete
equipment check with all your gear on before
boarding
c. Get your equipment checked once again before
exiting the aircraft.
(1) “check of threes” (jumper self-check)
(i) three-ring assembly (and reserve static line)
(ii) three points of harness attachment for
snap assembly and correct routing and
adjustment
(iii) three operation handles—main activation,
cutaway, reserve
(2) pin check back of system (by another jumper)
top to bottom
(i) reserve pin in place (and automatic
activation device on and set)
(ii) main pin in place
(iii) ripcord cable movement or correct
bridle routing
(iv) activation handle in place

[denete 2]

Nice post.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I won't speculate about why others use packers.

I use packers for two reasons:

1. If I need the time between jumps for debrief &/or dirt diving. This is usually either a team training day or a day when we are working on large group jumps.

2. If I need to conserve my energy for jumping. I have found that at age 52, that packing in 90 degree F & 80-90% humidity... I get too tired, too fast. If I get too tired, the quality of my jumping degrades... so it is smart for me to use packers on team training days or days when we are working on large group jumps.

I don't have trust issues with my packer. She is a rigger, has a ridiculously large amount of experience, and is a friend. She takes good care of me.... she has NO desire to face my wife if she screws up and I die! (Besides, she survived a DOUBLE hard pull... both main and reserve. She was saved by her AAD.) She has a deep respect for what the risks are and the importance of her work.

When I am fun jumping and have time... I love to pack for myself. As I get faster at packing, perhaps reason #1 will fade away.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[pms07 3]

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maybe it was a silly question after all, i just got the impression most up jumpers would not pack for themselves..

Well, replace "silly" with "stupid" and you might have the correct impression after all.

[virgin-burner 1]

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maybe it was a silly question after all, i just got the impression most up jumpers would not pack for themselves..

Well, replace "silly" with "stupid" and you might have the correct impression after all.

now that is about the most ignorant i've ever read on here..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

well, not here..

if you're ever in europe, come and have a couple of jumps in switzerland. ask any jumper to do that for you. all you probably get is a puzzled look on their faces..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[tkhayes 126]

what did you pay for that first AFF jump which includes packing lesson?

We charge $285 for AFF 1, and it does not include any of that. Mostly because I will probably need that rig back in the air in another 20 minutes on another load.

While we have almost 20 student rigs, I cannot afford the time nor the gear to spare to teach you from the first jump. Packing lessons while the sky is blue and the sun is shining?

That is like teaching you dive tables and nitrox calculations while you are on the boat and out to sea, when you could be in the water actually swimming. Packing lessons are for rainy days and after hours (at a busy dropzone).

But I understand where you are coming from. More people should pack for themselves, especially those that complain about the price of jump tickets. If they can still fork out the $6 to get packed, then jump prices are definitely not high enough yet.

TK

[piisfish 135]

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well, not here..

if you're ever in europe, come and have a couple of jumps in switzerland. ask any jumper to do that for you. all you probably get is a puzzled look on their faces..

no. If you ask me, I'll check you.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

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well, not here..

if you're ever in europe, come and have a couple of jumps in switzerland. ask any jumper to do that for you. all you probably get is a puzzled look on their faces..

no. If you ask me, I'll check you.

you're not swiss, you're a farkin' russian!

instead of making funny remarks, you'd better back me up, fellow countrymen. in the german and italian part of switzerland, nobody does a pincheck on others. and rigs (of sportjumpers) are packed by themselves..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

i paid 3 grand in total, including repetition of lv4 and lv6, including googles, logbook and packing lesson/packing test. not that the test was a big deal, last day of aff they prepared some rigs for us and we had to get it right..

i did aff in a weeks holiday, sunday groundtraining, monday was raining so we spend the whole day packing, tuesday, wednesday and thursday was being finished with aff and friday i did some solos and packing test.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[tkhayes 126]

If I could charge $3000 for 7 levels of AFF, I would provide private packing lessons, air conditioned packing areas, massage therapy at the beginning of every day, video, chauffeurs, etc

Our AFF 7 levels is only $1200. TO get the 25 jump for the license, we only charge $2300, including the AFF.

There is the answer to your question - there is nothing wrong with the packing/packers in the US, it is simply a difference in how much money there is to pay people for what they do.

[virgin-burner 1]

yea, but i guess your jumptickets dont cost around 38$+, at the cheapest place. not that this is a bad thing, but people here probably have higher wages, since cost of living is higher too and blah-blah.. i guess its comparing apples with oranges..

and i didnt say there was anything wrong with packers, for fucks sake!
its just that they're not very common here. except for a boogie or team training. inquiring mind wanted to know why it appears to be different in your wonderful country..
not directed at you, but i'll never ever post a serious question again around here. if people dont know me enough as of yet, and that i like to put a little bit of irony and sarcasm into my posts.. they'll never learn its no sense turning every thread into a flamefest for some.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda